Thieving Scumbag Facebook shoplifters- Rant follows

Hmm me again - I know this was suggested a few pages back but I really like the idea of all competitors paying something like a £4 photographer fee - perhaps for that they could choose 1 (not very technical so apologies here if this is wrong) jpeg image (low resolution?) or could choose to have it deducted from a print or high resolution image they buy. We all pay for first aid and at some venues a membership fee?
But this could be the desperate post of someone who rarely gets the opportunity to buy pics!!
 
I personally would object to paying a photographers fee. Why should I pay for something if I have no intention of buying? first aid will pay as don't know when might need them but tog charge no, especially if a tog you know takes bad quality pics!

Realised this year I haven't actually bought a single event photo and have relied purely on my OH and him using my DSLR! The reason why? only seen one photo I actuallly wanted to buy, it cost £15 for an 8x6 OR £10 for a low res web image or £25 for a high res image. Add in that one of the togs cost me a placing (was hiding in crops directly infront of fence so you could only see lens and bits of random body! horse objected spooking for good 10secs + until tog dropped lens, horse then moved forward, not given stop but did gain 12 secs worth of time penalties which can directly relate soley to the tog) and there is no way I am parting company with that amount of money as clearly told could not scan print to put online and I was not going to pay a further £10 for low res version or £25 for the high res on its own.

Every other photo I could find fault with, whether it was my position, the horses shape, too early, too late, over exposed etc and as I'm rather critical about photographic composition as an amatuer tog myself I was never going to buy them!
 
santa145 said:
Add in that one of the togs cost me a placing (was hiding in crops directly infront of fence so you could only see lens and bits of random body! horse objected spooking for good 10secs + until tog dropped lens, horse then moved forward, not given stop but did gain 12 secs worth of time penalties which can directly relate soley to the tog)
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I nearly ran a photographer over, he decided to stand right in front of the next fence in a SJ course.....

After what felt like a long time with the horse and the photographer doing the "no after you" dance the horse jumped the fence despite the distraction but I was seriously unimpressed.
 
Can't really comment re photographers being in the way but I suppose I saw it a bit like the first aid bit - there (meaning photos) if you need or want it - but not if you don't. £4 wouldn't be that much but could make coming to an event viable for a photographer (£4 x say 50 competitors = £200) and as i said in my area they don't come so no option for those who don't have obliging OHs! And photos hopefully better quality than the average amateur?
 
I had a photographer crouched down in the middle of a double at a BSJA show a few years ago. Needless to say it cost me a stop in an otherwise clear round!

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if it's been suggested before, but how about having photos only available on the day not on a website if you have the facilities to print on site. I know this is taking a bit of a step back in terms of technology, but it certainly stops people nicking your photos and I think sometimes people are more inclined to buy on the spur of the moment as it were rather than going away and thinking about it.
 
Wow! This is some thread.

I competed once in my 20's and someone happened to take a professional photo of me actually jumping.

I remember the feeling of going to the tent, seeing myself and I bought that photo!

30 years on, I still have that photo of me in my slimmer days jumping a RS cob!

It is a very treasured possession and always on display. There are no other photos of me riding anywhere else!

Anywho, I have sent the person the invoice both via email and a hard copy so we will see.

I don't set out to make money from my photography. I am realistic and enjoy it firstly as a hobby but I am a professional, I like my subjects do my very best to share what I think I am good at.

http://www.onlinepictureproof.com/francestaylor

The bottom line for me is that it is theft pure and simple whether it is for a photo worth £3 for Facebook or £10 for granny's birthday present.
 
Katt said:
I suspect that there are a lot of people like us out there, hence the 10% purchase rate cited above. I bet that is fairly accurate despite big queues as people will go for a look just in case there is a really lovely one. I expect that there will be a better conversion rate at championships or things like burghley young event horse or hoys.
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Thankyou!!! I never said 10% of the competitors come and view the photos, but how many actually purchase them. It's a rough figure but works out to be fairly accurate for most shows. We may get a huge queue at the van but so many people come along and look at the photos then 'come back later' or 'will buy online' etc etc etc.

Why should someone who has spent a lot of time and effort sell their product at a minuscule price? Considering how much horses cost to keep and compete, I would have thought you'd understand... it comes down to quality. Think of it like haylage- you could get poor quality hay for next to nothing but quite often people will pay more for hay that's better in quality. I could go and quite easily take photos at a show with a compact camera but I guarantee you they will NEVER come out half as good as photos taken by a pro SLR and lens with an experienced photographer behind it.

In fact... this was taken with a £130 bridge camera, yeah it's kinda sharp, timing is ok, but it's nothing special, colours are flat etc,
46.jpg


This was taken with a pro SLR and lens, surely you can see the difference?
28209_397856192922_502157922_4381263_1807272_n.jpg


To sell the 2nd print at anything less than £8 wouldn't make it worth selling (not that I sold that photo, I took it for my own pleasure at a county show this year)- it would be a kick in the teeth if someone asked me to sell it for less. People often forget the expenses that photographers have to pay out before they can even start making money out of it... also try photographing a show in either blazing hot sun or driving rain, it's not fun. Add to that the fact that most days from start to finish can be up to about 18 hours if it's a big show, 10-12 if it's not, you get a break in between classes if you're lucky, it isn't a walk in the park and it really riles me when people start moaning about the cost of photos- if you don't like it, then go and bloody lump it but a. don't complain about it and b. don't steal our photos because there are many people out there who do buy professional photographs for the simple reason that they are better quality than anything they could get at home.
 
Frances, you need to look more closely at why you are losing images:

http://spidge.co.uk/Rambo/frances.jpg

I was able to copy this, clone out your watermark in seconds and or even just crop the image to remove the watermark and save myself time. Your watermark needs to be more prominent to make theft more unlikely. I appreciate you are only just starting out but if you are looking to sell images then you have to be realistic. I just saved myself £3 if I was going to buy your image but hopefully you will see where I am coming from.

Kind regards


Spidge
 
Twizzel said:
To sell the 2nd print at anything less than £8 wouldn't make it worth selling (not that I sold that photo, I took it for my own pleasure at a county show this year)- it would be a kick in the teeth if someone asked me to sell it for less. People often forget the expenses that photographers have to pay out before they can even start making money out of it... also try photographing a show in either blazing hot sun or driving rain, it's not fun. Add to that the fact that most days from start to finish can be up to about 18 hours if it's a big show, 10-12 if it's not, you get a break in between classes if you're lucky, it isn't a walk in the park and it really riles me when people start moaning about the cost of photos- if you don't like it, then go and bloody lump it but a. don't complain about it and b. don't steal our photos because there are many people out there who do buy professional photographs for the simple reason that they are better quality than anything they could get at home.
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At the same time do you think you would sell to more people if you dropped the price by a £1, then you would make more money in the long run?
The quality is definately better.

Due to the expense this is why I am suggesting maybe add an extra £1 on to entry fees if a photographer is present, this would then guarentee money at the end of the day. If this was to occur I would be quite happy to pay for it. If it went to £4 as someone suggested then it wouldnt work and people wouldnt go to the show.

There are some prof togs who are charging over £15 for a 7x5 photo, now I am sorry but I cannot afford to pay and think that is OTT.
 
lizzie_liz said:
At the same time do you think you would sell to more people if you dropped the price by a £1, then you would make more money in the long run?
The quality is definately better.

Due to the expense this is why I am suggesting maybe add an extra £1 on to entry fees if a photographer is present, this would then guarentee money at the end of the day. If this was to occur I would be quite happy to pay for it. If it went to £4 as someone suggested then it wouldnt work and people wouldnt go to the show.

There are some prof togs who are charging over £15 for a 7x5 photo, now I am sorry but I cannot afford to pay and think that is OTT.
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Yes I agree £15 is extortionate, for a 7x5 I'd say £7 is more acceptable. The smallest the tog I work for sells is 9x6 which is £10, I think a reasonable price. 12x8 is £15.

I like the entry fee idea but as a competitor myself I would want the photographer to be experienced and proven at covering an event effectively- there are a couple of togs down here that I don't rate and provide what are IMO poor quality pics- I wouldn't agree to pay a £1 fee if that photographer was covering the event, but if the tog I work for was covering it I would agree as they produce fantastic shots that are creative and spot on with sharpness and colours.
 
not read most of the pages - just adding to the comments about adding a no right click thing onto the website to stop people saving the images. there is a simple way for thieves to get round this! they will just printscreen the page and crop out the background.

Frances144 - your photographs are lovely - but i do reccommend you put watermarks on ALL of the images on your site - even the ones in the gallery. it's incredibly easy for me to (as above) screen shot the page and crop out the background, leaving me with a pretty high quality image for me to save onto my computer. (dont worry i haven't actually saved any of these!)

i can't think of any way which will stop these thieves - even making the watermark heavy won't detter some people. i have people on facebook who have professional photos as their profile pictures with a massive thick watermark accross it and they don't seem to care that it's there, and they obviously haven't paid for the photo.
 
The good news is that this thread is now so huge that it should make H&H magazine next week and get even more publicity about photo thieving toe-rags :)
 
Looking at the two photos given above as examples of an "average" print and a "professional" print, to be brutally honest I would rather be able to buy more of the average prints at say £5 a pop which have been taken with cheap equipment than to have to spend £10+ onthe pro version. Reason being if I bought a photo from most shows I can't possibly have them all on display at once and they tend to end up in her photo album so there's no benefit in my paying more to get the better pic because the lesser one is adequate for my needs.

I would also be quite happy to buy smaller prints at smaller prices but as yet I haven't been to a show where this is offered
 
Twizzel said:
there are many people out there who do buy professional photographs for the simple reason that they are better quality than anything they could get at home.
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I diagree, I buy pro pics because I like a momento of the day, but my Mum who comes with me brings her camcorder as that is more valuable to me to be able to watch back and pinpoint where we went wrong. I would rather lower quality images and be able to afford to buy more of them. I'm not looking for the one off super pic of a life time, I just want some nice momentos to look back on in years to come.
 
seriously that "average" shot would not make a decent print at any size, its quality is aweful.. (no offence to the person that took it)

if i took that it would get deleted as it does not reflect the quality of my work..
 
But I don't want a large print...

What is the ratio of say 7x5 to A3 size prints that you sell following equestrian events? I've only ever seen people buying the smaller stuff so the fact that you could blow it up to A3 or similar really doesn't interest me and I resent paying the extra for it as it's not needed for my purposes
 
fltogger said:
seriously that "average" shot would not make a decent print at any size, its quality is aweful.. (no offence to the person that took it)

if i took that it would get deleted as it does not reflect the quality of my work..
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I took it about 6 years ago on a bridge camera before I even bought an slr and started working, agreed it's awful and the quality is useless but that judging by the response above appears to be what people want! I took the 2nd image at Royal Cornwall this year so that is the standard I work at now.
 
im saying it would make a roapy 7x5.. possibly an okay 6x4.

any photographer worth attending an event would not sell an image that is as "soft" as that one (again no offence lol)
 
I'm not saying that I don't appreciate the high quality because I do, but what it seems to boil down to is photographers saying they can't sell prints for less because equipment is so expensive.. which is a very valid point.. however if lesser but adequate equipment was used (at maybe 10% of the price from what's been quoted on here) and you sold prints at 50% of current prices to probably a greater market then you would be quids in.
 
MegaBeast said:
I'm not saying that I don't appreciate the high quality because I do, but what it seems to boil down to is photographers saying they can't sell prints for less because equipment is so expensive.. which is a very valid point.. however if lesser but adequate equipment was used (at maybe 10% of the price from what's been quoted on here) and you sold prints at 50% of current prices to probably a greater market then you would be quids in.
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if you want to go out and take 1000s of photos every weekend all year round you need the expensive equipment, theres no two ways about it. youre buying durability and quality. you try taking a consumer level camera and go and try taking gloomy indoor arena shots without using the flash for example.
 
MegaBeast said:
I'm not saying that I don't appreciate the high quality because I do, but what it seems to boil down to is photographers saying they can't sell prints for less because equipment is so expensive.. which is a very valid point.. however if lesser but adequate equipment was used (at maybe 10% of the price from what's been quoted on here) and you sold prints at 50% of current prices to probably a greater market then you would be quids in.
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The equipment used for the first photo is not adequate, it didn't produce a good photograph, as fltogger said no established experienced photographer would ever put that photograph up for sale.

The kit I use is adequate- the camera cost £850 and the lens £650 plus all the extras (battery grip £150, countless memory cards and batteries). It is not top of the range, it is the lowest level of equipment I can get away with (to give you an idea, up until last year I was using a Canon 350D which went to camera heaven due to being used professionally which it was not designed for such high, constant use), so I upgraded the body to something that could cope with being used on a professional level where I can take thousands of photos at every show.
 
Fair points, was thinking a bit simplistically. But I stand by my point that I, and probably the majority of your target market, don't want a print that can be blown up to a large canvas without losing its quality. We simply want decent 7x5 prints which surely is cheaper to produce?
 
Would you expect an artist to do a quick rough sketch of a picture or for them to put their talent to use? You want blurry/soft/fuzzy photos then get a pal to stand around for the day and take photos of you! If you want clear, sharp, hopefully well timed and angled photos that print well then you use someone that is classed good at their job with the right equipment! I'm sure most of you don't cut corners with say finding good trainers/instructors or equipment ... neither do photographers!

BTW I am an event tog, I also ride and compete and never really understood the photographers point of view until I spent 9 hours in the freezing cold taking photos of other peoples horses to have them ripped off the website :-( I enjoy what I do as have produced and sold some lovely prints that I'm proud to say are hanging on peoples walls!!!

The difference is really between Tesco Value and Tesco Finest!? We are there to produce good quailty images to be proud of.

:-)
 
MegaBeast said:
Fair points, was thinking a bit simplistically. But I stand by my point that I, and probably the majority of your target market, don't want a print that can be blown up to a large canvas without losing its quality. We simply want decent 7x5 prints which surely is cheaper to produce?
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so what about the people that DO want large prints? we offer 16"x12" (and upwards if required) which we get quite a few of, even a 18x12 standard print recently.

what if we didnt have the equipment? sale lost..

better to have the equipment and therefore the quality than not in my (and probably every other pro toggers) opinion
 
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