Thieving Scumbag Facebook shoplifters- Rant follows

Ah, sorry. I'm on IE. when I opened the new document and went to paste, it didn't come up, but when I opened the clipboard, there the image was and it allowed me to select and paste from there.
 
Wow this has turned out to be possibly the most interesting and long running thread I have seen on here recently, or is that just because it matters to me?

What has become abundantly clear is that this is a genuine area of concern for many photographers, not just equine. What is also clear is that there is a huge amount of sympathy from riders and competitors who genuinely appreciate what we do. I know from the responses I have seen both online and offline that a decent amount of people have now begun to consider the issue in a fresh light.

I had a lady email me last night to say that I was behaving like a small child and that she understood that it must be annoying to see people stealing my images. Here's my response:

"It is not just annoying, it is undermining my business and my livelihood. That is the motivation for my efforts to prevent or at least reduce it from happening. Would it not be irresponsible to do anything else in that situation?

Personally I had misgivings about the watermark but everyone we showed it to thought it was great, funny and hitting the nail on the head with a light touch of humour. I was also aware that the joke could quickly become irritatingly unfunny through constant repetition. That said, you really would be pretty desperate or determined to copy any image onto your Facebook with that splashed across it."

For those who do not see the funny side of the watermark, I have now changed it to something less subtle and more direct.

What has also become clear is that many photographers are obviously not meeting the needs (or unreasonable expectations?) of their target audience either through lack of innovation, staleness, complacency or for whatever reason. I would like to believe that I am not one of those, but perhaps I am. I have taken steps to move to an alternate gallery provider that will provide me with enhanced gallery features and usability for my customers, I hope that I recoup the £45 per month that this change will incur for my business. Downside other than this additional cost is that the security of images doesn't appear to be that much greater.

Thank you again for all the responses, both positive and negative. I'm a grownup really, I can take criticism on the chin. I now need to focus on the logistics of my business as I have a very busy few days coming up. For that reason I may not have time to respond to any new direction this thread may go in that may require my input.
 
An interesting read spread over 3 days and I have joined to make a reply. The thread seems to be taking 2 directions, that originally intended (IMHO) by Spidge and a second one that many throw up some interesting code for anybody with a gallery from which they sell images. There are some other interesting areas thrown up.

Where am I coming from? I set up the Event Photographers Society about 18 months ago to help us talk to each other and find better ways of working and to help customers find us.

What I have learnt from the thread;

1. Many do not understand copyright, and even when it is explained to some of them their attitude is to stick 2 fingers up to the photographer to the point that some riders are totally outraged by us wanting to protect our rights.

2. Riders want photographers to attend their events - personally I think a photography charge on the entry price will never work because there will be those that think it then entitles them to free product.

3. Many riders have the skills to attempt to download images for free/remove watermarks

What I already know;

1. To set up as an equestrian event photographer will cost at least £10K but more realistically come closer to £20K - includes cameras, printers, trailers etc.

2. We have ongoing costs such as insurance, staff, equipment repairs and servicing, advertising, web sites etc.

3. Allowing customers to set prices would never be realistic, asking for different product may be achieveable.

4. We are a business i.e. we are there to make money.

Conclusions

1. We need to educate the riders about copyright

2. We need to listen to our customers - but we have been doing this for years

3. Riders as well as photographers should be reporting any copyright infringements to web hosts / facebook etc. If we work at this we can help each other i.e. help us to help you.

Personally I think that if the actions of Spidge help to promote a more responsible attitude where it is required then you will continue to have photographers at your events.

Mike
 
I've just seen this on H&H i can't tell you how frustrated i've become, i spend many hrs not only at the events taking the best pictures i can, then many hrs editing & uploading, then like a spider i watch the picture hits & last weekend was up to about 8000 picture hits in 5hrs & some sales but not huge...i've started to sell FB images for £1 just as a trail to see if this helps me at least put some petrol in my car...just not sure it will ?

Very sad because really enjoy my equestrian photography, weddings are so much easier to do & they pay ?

Best Regards

Wayne :0(
 
Interesting that weddings have come up more than once - my wedding photographs were a package which meant I was provided with no prints, just all the images on a CD, copyright free, to do as I wanted with....food for thought perhaps? In return, all our thankyou cards have the photographer's details on so a) she might get business from someone else, and b) people may buy prints from her site directly.

But essentially the main reason we picked her was the fact that aside from the brill pics she took, we got all the images (all 375 of them) copyright free to do what we liked with, it was a major plus for me.

ETA: This package was also significantly cheaper than anything any other photographer was offering, and no limit on number of pics etc - if it was good, we got it.
 
[
and becides mike you havent answered my question on where you stand with the thousands of CCTV cameras in the country constantly taking your pictures. are you not concerned where they end up?[/QUOTE]

Well, since you ask,of course it concerns me.However very few are connected to the internet for public viewing.
 
santa145 said:
SC would you mind PMing me the address of the wedding photographer you used as I am currently on the hunt for my wedding next year ;) :D
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I would not mind at all. I'll even give you the password to see our pics! She is seriously good, we are thrilled with our pics.
 
SpottedCat said:
Interesting that weddings have come up more than once - my wedding photographs were a package which meant I was provided with no prints, just all the images on a CD, copyright free, to do as I wanted with....food for thought perhaps? In return, all our thankyou cards have the photographer's details on so a) she might get business from someone else, and b) people may buy prints from her site directly.

But essentially the main reason we picked her was the fact that aside from the brill pics she took, we got all the images (all 375 of them) copyright free to do what we liked with, it was a major plus for me.

ETA: This package was also significantly cheaper than anything any other photographer was offering, and no limit on number of pics etc - if it was good, we got it.
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Weddings, i supply all the edited on a USB drive & supply some 8x9 for free & yes copyright free...after all they've paid my fee job done i'm v happy & so are they, just want a fair days pay for a fair days work.. & first rate service :0)
 
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EquineImage said:
I've just seen this on H&H i can't tell you how frustrated i've become, i spend many hrs not only at the events taking the best pictures i can, then many hrs editing & uploading, then like a spider i watch the picture hits & last weekend was up to about 8000 picture hits in 5hrs & some sales but not huge...i've started to sell FB images for £1 just as a trail to see if this helps me at least put some petrol in my car...just not sure it will ?

Very sad because really enjoy my equestrian photography, weddings are so much easier to do & they pay ?

Best Regards

Wayne :0(
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£1.00 for a Facebook image sounds about right to me and I would buy regularly (if I uploaded photographers photos to Facebook)
 
Just to add, this very forum carries advice about how and how not to treat photographs on the internet. Although it's interesting that even professional publishers like those behind H&H can't get it exactly right.
 
Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but read your rant. Someone might have said this before.

I did a little local competition in Spring and the photographer had no website and just a laptop and printer. I suggested to him that he have a flat fee for all images of a certain rider.

That way, his overheads were less and he could email straight out, unedited images for people to do with what they wanted.

For those that want their images cleaned up, do the work and charge accordingly.

Would this be an option at all?
 
I haven't read the whole of this topic, but I've got the basic gist.

I see your point, and I understand where you are coming from - If I was a photographer and was losing money because of this I wouldn't be pleased.

YET, I do believe the way you have handled the situation is childish and quite ridiculous. The watermark you first uploaded was rude and childish, and because of that I feel that you may have lost customers due to that. Nobody likes to see a watermark over the image saying their riding 'sucks'. It's unprofessional and quite frankly, rude. I certainly wouldn't dare buy any photos from a company that treats it's customers like that.

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from, and I wouldn't dare put photos on my Facebook page unless I have previously bought them, yet do feel you need to 'move along with the times'. There are many other methods and ways in which you can encourage people to buy the photos without stealing them first. Yet, by publicly putting them on your website you are opening yourself up to people stealing them - it happens to every photographer, and will probably never stop happening.

You've just got to find more secure methods of selling and producing the photos, maybe at the event, or (like a photographer from a show I went to a week ago did) - sent proofs of the photos in the post to each competitor. These photos were very small, yet big enough to see, and obviously you couldn't distribute these onto the internet as they were small and on paper. Along with it was sent an order form, and that is how I bought the photos from the event. This seems to be a much more secure method.

Ranting about it on a public forum maybe isn't the best way to go, either.

Good luck.
 
Maybe there'll come a time when I won't need the overheads of a trailer, computers, printers, staff etc and all I do is attend an event and make the images available unwatermarked via a web site for all to download.

Sounds streamlined and efficient but soulless. Why not take the photographer out of the equation and just have a web cam streaming images of the event that we can all later watch on Youtube.

I appreciate there are efficiencies of scale and as event photographers we are very versatile at adapting our products, pricing and workflow to the particular event. What works at one may not work at another. This is the challenge we face along with weather, rising costs, diminishing competitor numbers ( pony club events seem especially impacted this year) and recession with more pain to come.

I am happy to embrace new pricing methodologies regarding events, unfortunately it requires close planning with the organisers + committee, and a lead time of several months when you consider some venues/events publish an omnibus edition for the entire year. It will take time and venues excited by the prospect of working more closely with the venue, rather than regarding the photographers as a necessary evil that they have to endure.
 
I recently purchased an excellent digital photo from an event for £2.99. It was a fair price for a digital picture no printing involved. I was happy to purchase.

But I object to paying £8-10 for a photo that is often just a snap just so I can share with my friends. If you have 2 children and myself competing it makes a very expensive day. Perhaps a more realstic price for FB images to share wth your friends and people would pay the prices. For those competing regularly as much as a copy of the day is a nice to have at those prices it is just too much.
 
lizzie_liz said:
To the photographers, have you conducted market research into what competitors want from the event photographer. Am thinking here size of photo, cost, print or jpeg image etc
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Cool.....maybe all businesses should do that. Dear Nikon, I would like one of your new D3s (rrp £3589) for £1 and a new 300mm f2.8 VR lens (rrp£3999) for £2 please, and I expect these new items to be on your website within a week. I mean surely they would sell MUCH MORE at that price!!!! <sigh>

Right, here are my 2 cents worth

I decided not to get annoyed by this anymore as I'm never going to beat the theivers (official term).
I've decided to take a different approach....

At every event I do, I send out (free of charge) a small selection of images with the words "Courtesy of www.EventPhotographyScotland.co.uk" at the bottom of them. The images are 400px at the longest edge and are 72dpi.

"THAT'S MAD" I hear you say!

Not really, Because a lot of people do not know that I am at their event because usually I am there shooting for Eventing Worldwide website and photograph different horses and fences throughout the day. The agreement that they get the images is that they do not crop the message off the bottom or they won't get any more. These people plaster the free photos all over H&H, face book etc. so that their mates see them. This prompts the mates to go to the website thinking "I wonder if they have any of me" and look at the watermarked images and prompts them to buy.

It's not perfect, but as I am not long in this business, I am really trying to get people looking at the website regularly and coming back. If someone buys a print and contacts me, I'll gladly send them a small digi image (without watermark) because I would rather they were displaying a nicely optimised version of my work rather than a dodgy scan.

That is all.
 
becca92 said:
I haven't read the whole of this topic, but I've got the basic gist.

I see your point, and I understand where you are coming from - If I was a photographer and was losing money because of this I wouldn't be pleased.

YET, I do believe the way you have handled the situation is childish and quite ridiculous. The watermark you first uploaded was rude and childish, and because of that I feel that you may have lost customers due to that. Nobody likes to see a watermark over the image saying their riding 'sucks'. It's unprofessional and quite frankly, rude. I certainly wouldn't dare buy any photos from a company that treats it's customers like that.
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If you HAD read the rest of the thread, you will have seen that Spidge has responded to feedback and modified his watermark. I personally found the original one amusing and suspect was a knee-jerk reaction to a frustrating situation. In the context of the reason for having it, it would probably be very effective.

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from, and I wouldn't dare put photos on my Facebook page unless I have previously bought them...
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...with express permission to use them on Facebook...

...yet do feel you need to 'move along with the times'. There are many other methods and ways in which you can encourage people to buy the photos without stealing them first. Yet, by publicly putting them on your website you are opening yourself up to people stealing them - it happens to every photographer, and will probably never stop happening.
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What a sad situation, that society expects the worst of people if the opportunity arises - if something can be stolen, you must expect that it will. I wonder if the same people who steal photographs from websites also steal food from supermarkets and fuel from filling stations? After all, it is just there on the shelf or forecourt. All the internet does is allow you to commit a crime at a distance and anonymously. Must be OK then - after all if the photographer didn't want me to steal it, they wouldn't have made it so easy for me to do so. By this thinking, if you leave your horse in a field you must expect me to help myself to it. A locked gate is scant security.

You've just got to find more secure methods of selling and producing the photos, maybe at the event, or (like a photographer from a show I went to a week ago did) - sent proofs of the photos in the post to each competitor. These photos were very small, yet big enough to see, and obviously you couldn't distribute these onto the internet as they were small and on paper. Along with it was sent an order form, and that is how I bought the photos from the event. This seems to be a much more secure method.
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Above, you said to move with the times but you have just described the most old-fashioned process for picture sales I can recall. I remember having to do this 15 years ago!

Ranting about it on a public forum maybe isn't the best way to go, either.
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The fact that it has raised so much debate, raised awareness of the issue and facts and, it would appear, adjusted some people's behaviours suggests this is the PERFECT way to go about it. And if H&H pick up on this thread for their newsletter or even in their magazine then it will get even more exposure.
 
Mr FigJam I wish you came down south :) I had 20 odd photos taken of me at last event, I wanted them all, but had to buy just 2, which were £15 EACH for the jpeg and they are 300dpi :(
 
I just came across this thread on the H&H facebook and as an equestrian photographer I felt the need to reply to the comments that I read. FYI, here's what I posted...

Hi, as a professional equestrian photographer I can add some light to this...

It's illegal to use any image, whether printing or via electronic media without permission of the photographer or owner of that image. The photographer owns the copyright to the images that they take and if you have not purchased the right to use that image for a specific purpose then you are breaking the law and could well be taken to court. It's no different to copying a music track or dvd illegally.

When you buy a photograph print you are buying just that, a copy of that image in print. The photographer still owns that image. If you scan that image and print more copies you are also breaking the law.

Most photographers will sell you the copyright at a price, however they would have to take into account any possible future income that may have come from that image in order to work out that price.

Image theft costs photographers and graphic artists worldwide millions each year, people seem to forget that the photographer is a business like any other trying to make a living. The reality is the effort that goes into preparing for a show, having a number of photographers covering a show, the costs in travel, papers, inks, generators, equipment, actual working time etc... isn't cheap and all those costs need to be covered. Even after the show, all the images that have been taken have to be processed, cropped, adjusted then uploaded to the web. So a typical show can take 3 or 4 days of effort. Then storing those images online requires webspace, a webiste, online payment services which all have to be paid for etc...

Photographers spend years learning their craft. Good equestrian photographers will have spent time around horses, possibly ride themselves, understand how they move, understand stride patterns, know how to act around them and be familiar with dressage tests etc... Considerable effort is invested in developing styles that make good photographs of a horse and rider in different types of event.

Unfortunately the internet has made image theft a lot easier, however, what most people do not realise is that images have hidden meta data that says exactly who took that image and who owns the copyright. Also slapping a big copyright watermark across the image helps but does not stop people copying the image or linking to it.

Regarding people saying about permission to take their photograph. Just because you are in an image does not give you permission to use that image. It must be pointed out that most photographers are at events at the request of the organisers. Generally this would be indicated on any show schedules and flyers. If you are not happy with that then you are quite at liberty to ask the photographer not to take your photo when you are about to compete.

At the end of the day, photographers are there to try and capture a moment that you want to remember and want to keep and why anyone would expect they would be doing that for free I have no idea.
 
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