Thin soles + copper deficiency - linked?

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Keenjean

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Can anyone she any light on this, is there a PROVEN link between copper deficiency and thin soles? My horse has had on and off lameness problems that have been diagnosed at Liphook vets as being due to thin soles and a flatter pedal bone. They have recommended silicone pads (which are now on) and 6 weeks box rest with 20 mins walking in hand a day (which we are 3 weeks into). She is being reexamemed in a week to assess any improvement.

I have read things on here that seem to suggest there is a link between copper deficiency and thin soles which may also explain my horses pigment problem (bay with vitiligo type patches on her face and between her back legs that come + go) Please can someone explain this to me and whether they have known any other cases such as this. I will of course bring this up with my vet about supplementing her for copper. Thanks!!
 
You will struggle to find any scientific proof I think, it's a very poorly researched area. I have heard plenty of anecdotal evidence supporting a link between imbalances and deficiencies in minerals with thin soles. I should imagine your best course of action would be a grazing/forage analysis to see which minerals your horse may be deficient or imbalanced in.
 
If she is being given hard feed I would doubt she was copper deficient as it is added to commercial horsefeed - which is why it shouldn't be given to sheep. Her thin soles could just as easily be in inherited trait.
 
Take care when interpreting the analysis tho - you can have plenty of copper but some other things (iron I think) can stop animals being able to use the copper - so it can look fine on paper but still need supplementation!
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Take care when interpreting the analysis tho - you can have plenty of copper but some other things (iron I think) can stop animals being able to use the copper - so it can look fine on paper but still need supplementation!
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Yes, sorry should have said that the results will need interpreting by someone like Sarah at Forage Plus, as the chart supplied with the results is geared towards farmers not horses.

I've never seen a hard feed which is balanced to the average uk grazing. They are usually much too high in iron and low in copper, zinc and often others.
 
She doesn't get hard feed at the moment as she is a good doer on box rest (warmblood) but she is getting 1 scoop of Hifi lite and Dodsen and Horrel general purpose supplement each morning and she gets 2 average size nets of haylage a day.

I don't know anything about forage analysis, this might be a thick question, but do they analyse your hay or grazing and who does this?

I really would like to feed her something to help her feet as obviously good strong feet are made by good nutrition but I'm really not sure what to give! Some people say biotin some people say booting a no no, it's v confusing!
 
Agree with the balancing to forage and using an expert at Forage Plus, they have a particular interest in barefoot horses, which they re-habilitate at Rockley Farm.
One would expect other animals to show copper deficiency, not just one horse, but stranger things have happened.
Re forage analysis, you can take a representative sample of the hay or winter forage, take lots of bits from several bales, mix it all up and then send off representative sample.
If the winter forage is not harvested very locally, you would need to consider also taking grass samples, this is a bit more complex as you need to walk all over the fields in a large W pattern, taking representative snips of grass and herbs every so often, as many bits as possible, once you have a feed bag full, from all over the grazing, slowly air dry before sending off a mixed reperesentative sample.
Ask at forageplus for advice.
In the meantime I suggest you could email Equimins and ask if they have a specialist supplement to start with straight away.
Personally, and other will come in here, if you can allow the horse to develop better hoof growth by changing the diet and condised removing the shoes so that the feet will start to build up their own inner strength. It sounds as though box rest with a gradual build up of exercise may take some time, so I can't see anything against removing the shoes.
You have to be aware that most vets are used to dealing with shod horses, and dela with what they see now, rather than looking at more long term solutions.
If you look at Rockley Farm blogs you will see that many horses which were written off are now back in work, and most are now unshod, AND have a new diet.
 
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Equiminns Advance Concentrate Meta Balance Formula 2 has no added iron but extra copper! You cannot order it over the internet, you need to call them up and ask for it!

This is what I am now feeding as apparently it is mineral balanced to UK hay/grass as best as you can get without having individual analysis done
 
Biotin is only one vitamin, it is required for hoof growth BUT so are other things, also biotin is produced by a horse on a good diet, so those people who have good results with Biotin, have been feeding a ration which is deficient in one [or more ways].
I tried to find the mineral analysis of D&H mineral mix, but it was not available on their site, this in itself puts me off.
Nutrition is important and their nutritionists will be well qualified, but I am a a bit of a sceptic [with an agricultural education], and I can assure you that most nutritionists will take their recommendations from published Recommended Daily Amounts, these may be OK for the average equine, but for special cases, like yours a more specialist advisor is preferred.
Basic equine degrees will not cover the full spectrum of mineral interactions etc, there are people with degrees in soil science, and they are rare enough, and they don't do the animal physiology side of things. So you will need to take your advice from someone who has studied the equine diet in the UK and has experience of practical solutions.
 
Oh by the way forageplus do an analysis, but you will also need to have a mix made up for your horse.
You will probably be advised to change the whole diet to promote hoof growth.
Classic copper deficiency is a reddish tinge to the mane and coat of a bay.
 
Thanks very much for all your advice, I have looked at the forage analysis website and contacted them about it. Just out of interest, why do people recommend equimins
 
Pixiepoo said:
Thanks very much for all your advice, I have looked at the forage analysis website and contacted them about it. Just out of interest, why do people recommend equimins
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Equimins is a company which specialises in minerals, run by "chemists" rather than "feed manufacturers"
The metabalance product is available to those with a special needs horse, as it is not a general supplement.
If purchasing metabalance make sure you also order 10Kgs micronised linseed meal which is good for feet and coat and joints, minimum feed: one coffe cup per day.
If you need a carrier for your minerals you can use Fast Fibre which is low energy [8.0megajoules/Kg] and has NO MOLASSES.
 
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fatpiggy said:
If she is being given hard feed I would doubt she was copper deficient as it is added to commercial horsefeed - which is why it shouldn't be given to sheep. Her thin soles could just as easily be in inherited trait.
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Excess iron and manganese in your grazing and/or forage will cause copper deficiency unless you supplement additional copper. Those two elements take up the receptor sites for copper, so you have to feed additional copper to give it a fighting chance against the iron and manganese. In addition, commercial horse feed have added iron and manganese :( This imbalance appears to be coming up as very common on forage analysis from the UK

Copper deficiency is known to be required for insulin regulation. Issues with insulin regulation are known to cause thin soles.

Thinner soles than another horse may well be an inherited trait. Soles so thin that the horse cannot walk on its own feet are not.

OP you could do worse than to test your horse for Insulin Resistance, it's a known cause of thin soles and treatable. Belt and braces test for Cushings too.

And if in doubt, there is, I understand, no risk in supplementing 400 miligrams a day of copper, that's in 4 grams of copper bioplex available from Forage Plus. WEIGH CAREFULLY and do not overfeed, copper in excess is poisonous. Some people will tell you that you must supplement zinc if you supplement copper. I don't add any more zinc than is already in NAF haylage balancer and I have no problems.
 
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I went through this copper deficiency query when my horse developed soft soles. My vet said to try a hoof formula balancer first before going into any series of major testing and because the forage at the yard was bought in and therefore not consistent even if we tested the current batch. We could always do blood work if things did not resolve.

This approach completely sorted the problem. I used a kevin bacon supplement to concentrate on the likely dietry causes and increase growth to get back to good feet (this had copper, iron, biotin and many other minerals etc in so not just the copper). Once they came good I moved onto blue chip pro to keep things on track. Interestingly I was also told that runny eyes can be caused by copper deficiency and quite a few horses on the yard suffered from this at the time. This was last year and his feet are now the best they have ever been and his farrier is very pleased with the results. Hence I never found out whether it was copper, or another mineral I just know something(s) was/were deficient and these ingredients are in both supplements.
 
I know this discussion is over 10 years old now but I'm having a similar problem and wondered if anyone has had recent experience of something similar?

My 10 year old warmblood gelding has EMS and every now and again (especially at the change of seasons) gets vitiligo around his left eye. At the same he tends to get very lethargic and depressed. He also gets very stiff in his body and loses shoes easily. I usually start a copper supplement once the vitiligo appears and within a week or so it starts to resolve and he picks up. I have been a bit slow at responding this time and the patch is starting to spread and he's not himself.

Due to his EMIS, I started him on soaked hay about 2 months ago (soaked for about an hour or so) so I wonder whether this has stripped a lot of the nutrients out, including copper etc. He has always been on good Thunderbrook feeds including a balancer.
 
My area is low in copper and I buy hay locally so expect that to be low too.

My littlest cob cannot be shod in front and has grown herself a very tough pair of hooves since I started supplementing a copper/zinc/selenium mix (we're very low in selenium)

Sometimes it's worth changing balancer if yours isn't giving you the results you need.
 
SEL said:
My area is low in copper and I buy hay locally so expect that to be low too.

My littlest cob cannot be shod in front and has grown herself a very tough pair of hooves since I started supplementing a copper/zinc/selenium mix (we're very low in selenium)

Sometimes it's worth changing balancer if yours isn't giving you the results you need.
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It’s so strange how so many other problems follow the vitiligo when it starts. I’ve just had his hocks medication with Arthramid as they look so stiff rev3ntl6.
 
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