Things our horses teach us #1

[SpottedCat]

So all year I have been working on my SJ position, first out in the USA and then back here on my horse. Whilst the 'feel' over a fence has been better, the confidence has slowly got worse and worse (on his part) which has, naturally, affected me.

I've been told many times, by many trainers, that I am too 'deep/driving' in the saddle SJing, that my lower leg should be fractionally further back and my seat should be lighter. I've heard it from all but my favourite trainer, and from everyone from Kenneth Clawson to a 4* rider to the trainer in the USA, and many more besides.

My favourite trainer, however, who is a BHSI and has ridden to a v high level, has never tried to change my position and once said to me that I should ignore anyone who told me to try and alter my horse's way of going into a fence as it would ruin his jump.

Recently, the jumping has got worse and worse, so I have taken the horse right back to basics, and even that wasn't brilliant. But the other night I was watching some videos of me jumping when our partnership was at its best and we were going round N tracks/newcomers easily.

I noticed how different my riding was in those, and I decided to try reverting to that. I tried it last week for the first time, and then again last night. It was like my horse breathed a sigh of relief - he proceeded to go back to being the jumping horse I've always known and loved, took me to each and every fence and jumped a double clear (all be it over tiny fences). First time we've managed that since July.

Interestingly I think my uber-confident horse in fact was always so bold because I was always right behind him and 110% committed to the fence. And because I've had him since a youngster, he's used to my style thanks, and would really rather I didn't change it. I'm looking at it from the point of view that I now have another set of tools in the box, so I can be more 'correct' if I need to be, but can ride him in the way he clearly prefers.

Hands up anyone else who would like to suggest to their horse that they should read the textbook more closely and make every effort to adhere to it?

 

[connie1288]

Totally agree, some horses just dont conform to the rules.
My JRN horse was like that, we called her a freak, we could have gone back to basics and broken everything down, so that she would have been able to get better marks in dressage (had a v poor canter) but she happily jumped 1.20m tracks and Novice BE when she was 6/7.
I tried very hard not to have lessons on her from anyone, other than my trainer at the time, as they tried to change her and she hated.
I let her get on with it, and it worked, before she went back to her owners we had pretty much decided however amazing she was, she should go back, other wise I would never be able to ride anything else as she was so different!!

 

[buddly]

lol my old horse was different in that he was quirky but when you jumped him he always jumped best when i was in semi jump position already!! that was the way he liked it light seat slightly leaning forward my new girl is the opposite she likes you to be behind her and almost driving her (but not if that makes sense!) the first boy xc was awsome would jump anything off any stride and very bold she needs more riding and likes you being comited it was really hard to change my style of riding and took me a full season to really get used to her way.... i agreee with you trainer in that all horses are different and as long as your not dangerous or way off in ya positioning then go with what suits the horse

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I'm like you SC I put more leg on in the last few strides, I think as a result of having done so much XC, but Soap was telling me back off I need just a 'hugging leg' for SJing otherwise I just get in too fast and flat and knock them down.

So in a way I have gone in the opposite direction to you, but less leg had NEVER occured to me in relation to jumping and it took a more experienced eye to point out that this would work. I think sometimes instinct is the best bet, but others the text book is right. I guess with your horse you write you own text book together as you train and progress

 

[SpottedCat]

I don't think this was anything to do with leg Chloe (sorry to be pedantic) - the amount of leg hasn't changed at all. What's changed is my seat/leg position, and how 'engaged' my seatbones are, that's what it feels like, anyway. I was going for having my lower leg slightly further back, and my seat lighter, and it just seems that that more classically correct position did neither of us any favours at all. I've had loads of people tell me how much better I look in the saddle, but that's no use to me if the horse doesn't jump as well!

 

[Chloe_GHE]

ah i see, and let me guess when you were having trouble sjing you were still fine xc?... because your position would be more like your old style xc anyway a bit more defensive with more input from your seat and body.

I think you are right he probubly just feels all wierd and like 'what's going on' when you are riding in this lighter style, out of interest why did you start to change your sj style in the 1st place?...

 

[SpottedCat]

Exactly right, no trouble XC at all.

I tried to change it because everyone under the sun, from trainers to friends to casual observers of my vids on this forum have mentioned how 'bad' my position was, in the sense that I'd get comments of 'that's really very nearly there, now if you just lighten your seat and have your lower leg a bit further back, you'll be spot on'. The catalyst for change was that not one of the horses I jumped in the USA would go over a x-pole for me in my 'old' style, so I thought it was about time I listened and did something about it!

I don't see it as wasted time, though I am slightly frustrated at the backwards progress I have made in jumping my own horse, because I now have a whole other set of tools in the box which will help me ride other horses more effectively in the future.

 

[ecrozier]

And not every instructor works for every horse! I went to a BE JT day and the instructor in the warm up said we were doing a nice job and just to carry on - the one in the ring totally tore us to shreds after we had 3 poles down in first round and told me cos my horse is small he needs to get a really onward bound forward going canter....we tried that and it fell apart, he had 4 poles down and stopped twice, crashing through one.
We persevered as this instructor is pretty well regarded, but it just got worse and worse. I started lessons at home with a different instructor, explained the problems, and she said, right, its not working, try the absolute opposite (keeping him really contained, in a super bouncy canter) and it worked - we went from struggling at 85cm to get round a course to popping through a 1.10 double in one lesson!
So def what works for one doesn't always work for another!

 

[SpottedCat]

I agree Emma_C, but this wasn't one trainer, this was every trainer bar one telling me this. In fact I'd hear it every time I had a lesson pretty much!

 

[Alibear]

Goes back to the old addage of make it effective first, then make it tidy afterwards.
Glad you've found a solution as I want to see B back in action.

 

[AandK]

very interesting to read, although it makes perfect sense i guess!!

i suppose it could be read simply as 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'? it's quite a different story when you are a multiple horse rider/pro as you learn that each horse needs a different way of riding, what works for one may not work for another and very few are 'textbook' so to speak!! but then i guess that is what you have realised by riding the horses in the US, they did not like the approach that your horse does..
interesting that only one trainer was different to the others, surely they must realise that not all horses would suit the 'light seat, lower leg back a bit' approach? these are just my musings on the subject, SJ is my achillies heel!!

glad to hear that you seem to be getting back on track in the SJ tho

 

[Dopeonarope]

Mine is like that! Jumps beautifully if I am in forward seat between the jumps and gets really ar**sy if I am attempting to sit properly ...
Plus, if he is wound up and jogging he'll only relax if I let him have a long rein (?). In fact, he'll only stand for more than 10 seconds if on a long rein... and only start working if contact is taken up.

 

[kerilli]

yes, must admit that while a certain trainer absolutely slated my natural position xc (which is pretty forward and made her very nervous!) all my horses have been very happy with it thanks very much, possibly/probably because they were used to it from the word go and obviously thought i'd gone mad the odd time i tried to change it. they didn't reward me for my efforts by going better (quite the reverse) so i guess they trained me into going back to how i was!
my grey mare had a lot of her own 'rules' (e.g. "no placing poles, no trot poles, no canter poles, they're flipping confusing, don't make it any harder for me, OR ELSE i'll have a flipping paddy, mum") and definitely hadn't read the rule book, but she was a brave little freak who loved the game so i played according to her rules!
glad to hear you're working B's demons out of his system. your regular trainer sounds v wise, btw...

 

[SpottedCat]

A&K - I think what I've taken from it is that in general, my SJ position is not the most effective position a rider could have, same as my dressage position was way off being effective and was blocking the horse, which I have fixed and between 5 and 10 penalties have consistently dropped off our marks, so all those trainers were right in a sense. The trouble is, I trained this horse from scratch or thereabouts, certainly competitively, and he prefers my old style. I think the key is to get us both uber-confident again and then make minor adjustments, as I do think for SJ my lower leg could be more effective - at the moment it is super-secure and I am in balance over the fence, but I can't influence him as much as I'd like.

 

[SpottedCat]

Trouble is Kerilli, he's not my regular trainer, just my favourite one! He's too far away for me to have lessons with more than just sporadically, and the last one I only got coz I rudely gate-crashed another HHOers lesson!!

 

[kerilli]

ah, okay, i didn't realise that.
i'd keep working on it at home, maybe with someone videoing occasionally?
what's he like if you have your stirrups 1 or 2 holes longer but ride in your old style, do the longer legs make any difference, put you in a half-way position that makes your legs more effective but keeps him happy?

 

[SpottedCat]

I can't jump with longer stirrups, I've tried. I feel horribly insecure over the fence, and I grip with my knees. You're not the first to say it, as I do ride short (well, damn it, I AM short!), and I have spurs with max length shanks a) to counteract this and b) because sometimes they hit the saddlecloth not the horse (I really am that short!!).

I don't particularly have a regular SJ trainer as he's the only one I feel really helps every single time. I go to others as the chance arises, but if I could see him once a month even I would.

I think I have just been plagued with 2 years of horrible issues which have made it hard to see what's me and what's the horse and what's the ulcers and what's nothing at all if I'm honest. It's rather blinded me as to what the real issue is - it's so easy to fix on what you think it is rather than thinking it through, and every time the jumping started to get better the ulcers reared up again. Now I seem to have all that under control with my new regime of supplements, and I've found a different bit/noseband combination which works (gone from a grakle and jointed pelham to a kineton and scrob snaffle), and I've rethought my position.

Hopefully if the stars continue to align and the magic keeps working we may one day graduate up to the 2ft9 class!

 

[kerilli]

well... a lot of sjers grip with their knees and rotate forward over their hands in midair, maybe it's something you could try (just 1 teensy weensy hole longer, aww go on, you know you're brave!) for sj only and see if it makes a difference?
i know what you mean about trying to work out what the real issue is...

fwiw, i resorted to a Horse Communicator last night. (i know, i know, i've finally flipped, ready the straightjacket and the padded cell...)

 

[SpottedCat]

Lalalalala can't hear you. I don't WANT to grip with my knees and rotate over my hands! I can do it perfectly well, I've demonstrated it when I rode longer, it's hideous

I can cope with being less than perfect, I can't cope with looking like that over a fence, I'll never buy another picture again or post a pic of me riding if I look that like in them! I don't care if it works for them riding over 1.60 fences, I will never, as long as I live jump a course at 1.60. All I want is to jump round a 1.20 course one day (in the dim and distant future I suspect). Anyway, I thought I'd established with this thread that my perverse horse likes my old, incorrect way of jumping him?!

Let me know what you think of the horse communicator, I'd be interested, even if it's just to save you from yourself

 

[kerilli]

hahaha oops sorry. i'm impressed if you can ride him 1 way and every other horse a different way!
the horse communicator was very good, everything made sense and it was well worth it (even if my OH now thinks i am utterly certifiable), i have renewed faith and hope in my little mare.

 

[Lolo]

I always find it interesting to watch people who ride well ride my horse because he's a grumpy git who has an overwhelming urge to always be right. This culminates in me sitting very quietly and keeping my leg on really gently with a super soft contact (read washing lines...) until he chooses to take off, at which point I give a little nudge. If I try and ride to a point, he will do anything to take a stride out or chip one in. My sister has had success on pretty much every pony she's got on, finding it very easy to adapt to how they jump and go but she really struggles with C because you can't tell him what to do.

Does make our SJ rounds a little fast and furious though!

 

[SpottedCat]

Could I persuade you to PM/email me a slightly more detailed description of it all?!

Well, I am sure I can't ride him one way and every other horse another way, but I think all these things are muscle memory really, I now know how it should feel and what I am aiming for, and so should I ever have cause to jump another horse I should know what to do, in theory. As it stands, I don't have any other horses to ride or jump, so in the grand scheme of things, as long as I keep it in my head that this one may not be the norm, it doesn't really matter, does it?! It's not like I have a string of eventers out in the field, if I did I am not convinced I would have had the energy and inclination to go and jump unaff CR and 2ft6 every week all winter....I'd have probably turned him away indefinitely and concentrated on something else. As I only have him, I have to either make it work or sell him - he has the winter but he is still on the transfer list.

 

[kerilli]

yep, will pm you.
fair enough, i totally understand that.
btw, did Matt try to change your position in our session, i don't recall that he did?

 

[SpottedCat]

No, but we were doing XC training in the arena...and my XC has never, ever been called into question at any point by any trainer

ETA the 4* rider who wanted to change my SJ position did not say a word about my XC position on the same day in a diff session....think that says it all really.

 

[susannita]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think for SJ my lower leg could be more effective - at the moment it is super-secure and I am in balance over the fence, but I can't influence him as much as I'd like.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds awfully familiar! However, we have worked out the the issue wasn't me or the horse,.... it was the fact my saddle was too big for me which meant I had to be very secure to stay on - ie lower leg was very very good, only problem was the fact I couldn't drop my knee to get my legs underneath to get my horse underneath me too. We aren't talking a huge saddle, I had always ridden in 17" saddles (flat seat jumping ones) but because i am short from knee to hip it meant my the stirrup bars were about an inch too far forward!! I am sure i saw you said you were short, i am just wondering if you could have the same issue, I know a bad workman blames his tools but i feel like i have wasted so much time and money training using equipment that didn't help one little bit!!

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]


This sounds awfully familiar! However, we have worked out the the issue wasn't me or the horse,.... it was the fact my saddle was too big for me which meant I had to be very secure to stay on - ie lower leg was very very good, only problem was the fact I couldn't drop my knee to get my legs underneath to get my horse underneath me too. We aren't talking a huge saddle, I had always ridden in 17" saddles (flat seat jumping ones) but because i am short from knee to hip it meant my the stirrup bars were about an inch too far forward!! I am sure i saw you said you were short, i am just wondering if you could have the same issue, I know a bad workman blames his tools but i feel like i have wasted so much time and money training using equipment that didn't help one little bit!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thought Avenger - dunno, this is me and my saddle in days gone by:

I think they want my lower leg in this position on the approach to the fence too - and it just isn't, it's more on/just in front of the girth. So I guess it isn't the saddle?

 

[TarrSteps]

Other topic aside, I would actually say your saddle IS too large. Or at least the flap is too large. The block that's in front of your knee is a thigh block, meant to sit just in front of your thigh (obviously

) and the one behind your leg should have the point of the block more or less in the crook of your knee, not with the back of your calf resting against it. I think your position looks quite good in that picture but it still gives me the impression something is out of whack with your saddle and the position of the block makes me think your lower leg "wants" to slide forward and you're having to grip with your calf (which doesn't affect your horse very much since a) he'd be used to it and b) it's so high up on the flap) to keep it where you want it to be. What's odd is that even though the horse is obviously somewhat large for you, he doesn't look freakishly so, it all just looks somehow out of kilter.

Horses definitely have preferences for how they're ridden and one of the skills very successful riders often have is an ability to pick horses that fit their own abilities and let the others pass them by. But also, if you're training a horse more or less from scratch it's quite possible to train it in ways that might not be classical or traditional but which work for the duration. And because of the way learning works - you never have a second chance to make a first impression - it's impossible to make it so the horse never learned it that way in the first place. (That's why schooling young horses is such a trick - often the results of this or that decision don't show up for years, by which point it's too late to turn the boat around.)

Not to say anything about your horse in particular - he's obviously well capable and doing the job for you - more a general observation about the commonly held belief that how a young horse does something is not important, so long as he does it any old way, as there's always time to change it later.

Anyway, I digress. . . out of curiosity, how long have you had that saddle? And did you have a similar one before?

I have had the opposite problem - almost every saddle I ever jumped in was too small, even ones belonging to people taller than me (always men, who might have been taller but not necessarily longer in the thigh). It was a revelation to finally ride in something that fit me and I found many of the "problems" I'd had with my position simply went away.

 

[SpottedCat]

Well, leaving the training aside as there is nothing I can do about that now, I've had that saddle about 18 months and before it I had an Albion K2. I think I was worse in the K2 - I seem to pivot off the knee in lots of the pics I have of me in it. I don't find the blocks on the saddle I have now influence my riding - I don't ever feel them hit my legs, though I agree it is possible I just haven't noticed.

This is in the Albion a few months earlier:

 

[SpottedCat]

Oh yes, and the horse is clearly too big for me, bloody thing kept growing! Bought as a rising 6yo at 16.1, just. Grew until it was 7 and now sticks at 16.3. The pic over the SJ quite clearly shows the issue I have with requiring long shanks on spurs so they can be felt through saddlecloths I think....

 

[kit279]

Yes, I learned a very important lesson last year aout riding the horse you're on, not the textbook you're reading.. Our grey horse is a jumping machine - it would be unheard of for him to stop either XC or SJ, he would always have a go even with a numpty on board. OH always just rode him in his usual farmer style and I used to complain bitterly that he never folded because his stirrups were too long. So I made him put them up 5 holes and we tootled off to a very small hunter trial, whereupon the grey horse promptly chucked in the towel at the first 3 jumps and stopped. This was so completely out of character, I actually sent him to the vets who could find nothing amiss (except that he has one foot smaller than the other and I already bl**dy knew that, I didn't need to pay £800 to find it out). So he came back to us, the stirrups went back down as OH complained they made his back hurt and the horse hasn't had a stop since.

It doesn't look very pretty when they jump but it is very effective...

PS. Get thee to Sederholm