Thinking of buying a young Dutch W/B - any experiences to share?

KWPN is a studbook so you can't be too generic on type. A friend owned and evented a fab KWPN mare... who turned out to have King of Diamonds on her passport (well known Irish Draught and can be found in most ISH bloodlines!)

It is worth looking at your potential mares breeding in terms of bloodlines as one advantage is that these lines do seem to breed true to type ( as in x stallion is known for breeding y horses) and if you do try her, do try to get an idea of what her reaction is to fixed/XC fences. I had a great ISH who was brilliant over coloured fences but viewed anything fixed as the spawn of the devil. Regardless of what I did.

I am surprised that you think an older horse is more expensive though. Its completely the opposite when I look at whats out there. Anything with miles on the clock and a record goes for a lot more money than an unknown youngster. Please free to pm with details of any cheap older eventers you see!
 
I import from Holland and Belgium. All have been super and I would not hesitate to recommend them. They have all gone on to showjump or event. As others have said, they are all different depending on their breeding. Some are more excitable than others, this usually depends on their breeding. Many of the top eventers are also now buying in European Warmbloods in to event. Go try and see what you think.
 
Agree with KatB here... I still believe that a young Irish horse with some hunting experience is much more likely to be a good horse for an amateur to event than a dutch warmblood. But this is speaking in generalizations and there will always be exceptions.

What a pro can produce is always going to be different to an amateur very part-time rider. It also depends on your riding style - can't say there are many warmbloods that I have ridden that truly take you forwards and are sharp off the leg in the same way that TBs/Irish horses are. But then I like my horses forward thinking and definitely not spooky. In my defense I have ridden a *lot* of warmbloods in the last year or so, and so I am basing this on about 50 WBs not just a handful.

If this horse ticks all the boxes, then go ahead - but I would see if you can try him over fixed obstacles first, as this is going to be the real clue as to whether the horse is going to make an eventer or not.
 
KatB said:
Personally I would stick to more irish/tb influences for eventing. For some reason, a lot of european horses seem to take to eventing a lot slower than their irish/tb counterparts! There is a lot of continental blood in the irish stud book, but generally the dose of irish bog pony seems to give them the edge to go XC...
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Because that's not what they are bred for. ;) KWPN, especially, does not breed for eventing, although of course there are exceptions. Also, they are not necessarily raised in a way that gets them out in open country, over rough ground etc. Again, not necessarily insurmountable but if you buy a horse like that then you have to be aware there is something to surmount and work accordingly.
 
Personally I would go Irish, or look for an Irish horse with some warmblood breeding in it. I've had a lot of both and although have enjoyed my Dutch and German horses, will always go back to Irish breeding. I find that the Dutch often are super bold and careful jumpers, however, I they tend to scare easily and need more accurate riding than an Irish look after themselves type. Basically a whole lot easier to ruin than a solid ish type. I've also found that for some reason Dutch horses aren't always the best xc.
 
pigsmight:) said:
Hello there :) I bought a 3yr old directly from holland 2 years ago, I was very lucky (I think!) as she was very easy and has a lovely can do attitude, she is small so was fairly cheap in comparison to what a 16.2hh version might cost. This seems to make some difference and there are a few little bargains to be had if you don't mind a smaller horse.

I have found (this is a massive generalisation) but does seem to hold some truth that a lot of continental horses can be abit cold, I have seen a few that are big scopey jumpers but really aren't forgiving if you happen to be on a duff stride!. I am not sure if this is due to the way horses are educated on the continent or breeding, perhaps I am talking rubbish ( wouldn't be the first time!). I have found that Irish horses can have a much more can do attitude, and be a little more amature friendly, of course this again is a big generalisation. But over the past few years I have seen more continental horses down tools because they just can't cope with being asked to do something that is out of there normal routine. Good luck with your horse search :)
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It's not really about coping or not coping, it's about being suitable for a job. In this case the right balance of chicken and lion for the situation. Many very careful horses will not "take a joke" and would rather stop than have the rail, and this is actively sought in their breeding. The traditional Irish horses were made to be a bit bolder, although so many are almost entirely Continental now this might not be so much the case. That said, countries tend to import horses and use the blood that tends towards what they traditionally value, so it may be that Irish breeders are still choosing horses with a bit more lion than chicken. :)
 
KatB said:
As I said, a lot have more tb OR Irish blood, and its those that are the more event types....so basically look at the breeding!! The fact the dutch stud book has introduced a lot of tb, Arab and irish blood into it in recent yearsshows they saw the need to change the breed type....
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They've not had an Arab in forever. The last one that got approved was 20 years ago and not in KWPN. I'm also surprised at the claim of significant traditional Irish blood . . .which stallions please?

ALL the WBFSH use TB blood, but usually through approval, so the horses are picked for the job. Originally, they were to lighten heavier mares but in recent times more likely to improve canters or add refinement (usually for the American market).

Most approved stallions are included in mutual approval agreements though, as - with the exception of Trakehners and, to some extent, SF - most of the WBFSH books are "open". This means when we talk about books we are really talking about tens of thousands of horses that have contributed to the modern warmblood.

This is why it's not possible to generalise.

I'd be more inclined to look at the stats for the line in question. There are lines and nicks that seem more likely to produce event horses, amateur horses etc. But if you're only going by breed then choose on the individual.
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
I tend to find they are spooky around the sides of arenas ect more than the fences! Maybe I always have/ride spooky ones! I love them though and it doesnt effect their performance! In fact I think it makes them careful :)
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So true!!!

One of my lad is only half Dutch WB (thankfully tempered by some sensible Irish DraughtxTB) and he is great fun but quirky. Spooky yes but about silly things rather than the really scary things most horses would throw the dummy out the pram over.....

He was rising 5 when I got him and can still be an idiot at times. He had the capacity to turn in to a thug on the ground if he wasn't handled firmly but fairly though. My instructor said that for the first year, she wondered why I had bought him as she always saw him at his worst- the tense spooky idiot until she started to see his good behaviour!

Best of luck whatever you decide!
 
Can't quote TS as am on my phone, sorry I was muddling myself (joys of writing when should be at work) the point I was meaning to get across was the fact that a lot of successful eventers with dutch in have Irish in too, not that Irish is in the stud book perse. I was mistaken with the Arab blood, probably muddling with the selle francais book?!
 
Its so funny how different they can be. I loved my mare and miss her. This is her...

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She was awesome! I hope my baby belguim Lord Z horse ends up like her!
 
I agree with KatB and RachelFerd. Of course every horse is different though! I'd see how it reacts to new things, how curious and bold it is. I think as an inexperienced amature you want something fairly forgiving. No point having talent if you are struggling to channel it. The thing I love most about my horse is how unphased he is. Ever since a 4yr old he'll just jump whats in front of him and if I mess up he's not offended just sorts himself out and over he goes.
You wouldn't want a horse that's too careful or gets worried too easily. Just something that's bold and safe and who will take the responsibility to help you out every now and agaIn. Its About confidence at this stage and if you really believe this horse is the one to give you the confidence go for it.
Generally irish horses are better knownto be easier and personally id choose an ISH or TB over WB for XC but some are complete wooses so who knows. Cant always judge a book by its cover.
 
icestationzebra said:
Lovely photos! I miss mine too - she was/is lovely :) funny thing was she was not a natural Xc horse but became really pretty good and quite bold really :)
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Mine was rubbish XC! She jumped everything too big and the big bushes at sommerford that you are meant to jump through...she jumped all of it jumping me right off haha! She was bold but gave too much height :(
 
KatB said:
Can't quote TS as am on my phone, sorry I was muddling myself (joys of writing when should be at work) the point I was meaning to get across was the fact that a lot of successful eventers with dutch in have Irish in too, not that Irish is in the stud book perse. I was mistaken with the Arab blood, probably muddling with the selle francais book?!
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Ah, got it. Sorry!

Yes, very true. People quite often say a horse is this or that but when you look at the paper it's actually not that at all, or in name only. There are some good horses with Dutch breeding out eventing but that's quite different from saying Dutch horses all make good eventers, particularly when the book has never made any attempt to breed for the sport in the was the Trakehners have or, in some lines, even the Hannovarians and and their closely related books.
 
Event riders with kwpn young horses beginning international eventing career or with some with 3*** experience and placings already :- breeding + rider s:- Hemmingway x landwind II- RIDER-ilonka kluytmas, Oscar x Vincent-merel blom, jazz x whinny Jackson-elaine pen, guidam x goodtimes-althea bleekman, metal x zeolit-catherine burell(Australia), indoctro x animo-piggy French(GB), nobility x harcos-laurence hunt(GB), emillion X dominard-jonty evans(Ireland), karandasj X mytens-tim price(NZ), naverone X Gershwin-irina giesswein(SWITSERLAND), lauriston X cor del bryere- clark Montgomery(USA)



In the last few years thoroughbreds were the breed of choice for eventing but with the major changes within the sport the type of horse is also having to change with less and less blood required for the discipline, nowadays more KWPN horses and other European bred sport horses are excelling at eventing
 
OP - lots of great answers here with knowledgeable peeps giving info & advice about breeding and pro eventers with dumbloods; sorry KWPN hot blooded horses.

Back to your original question - why did your ISH hunter not take to eventing? Which phase was it that he didn't take to? I am assuming that as a hunter he was good xc?

If the KWPN is brave XC, then you could have a fab horse as flatwork and SJ are usually their forte. They can be very wussy xc so make sure you try the horse in all phases.

Personally I'd say great for pros but not always suitable for an amateur, but generalisation is always dangerous.

Have you considered an ex-racehorse? Not off the track but one with a bit of experience? I've got one who is a talented lad (not for sale tho' ;))

Having had a Belgian Warmblood and then gone Dutch and now Irish, I'll stick with what I've got now as an amateur who is getting old and with a very time consuming and pressured job!
 
Somebody...can't find who because having stupid scrolling issues... made an important point about Warmbloods and barns.

It would be wise to check whether your youngster - if an import - was born in the spring rather than late in the year and barn kept for the first few months of its life. I was speaking to a vet who was doing a thesis and she had been finding that a significant number of lameness cases she had examined in KWPNs were late foals. She broadly described it as 'connective tissue issues'. This could be anything from an increased likelihood to do a suspensory to poor conformation and muscle development despite excellent breeding. Her theory was that the outdoors were essential to a foal in the first couple of months of its life, not just in terms of helping with muscle development but because the daylight is needed for the vitamin D to do its job. My mare fell neatly into this category. Bred by a very well known stud. Born in November and retired at 10 with crumbling rear suspensory apparati in both hinds.

That's not to say all should be tarred with the same brush but it might be worth bearing in mind.
 
Irish horses are bred for the job. They are raised outside on rough ground (my foals encounter banks, stppe hills, streams and forestry before their first birthdays!) and hunted early. They learn where to put hteir feet pretty sharpish if they want to stand up.
There is also a lot of TB blood in Irish breeding which gives athletiscism (sp?) and stamina. The brain comes generally in the main from the ID/ISH end, sometimes more than you'd want!
They have been crossing difficult country for centuaries, and have developed that toughness and fifth leg. They are forgiving, and learn form an early age to sort themselves out over a fence.
Also the reason Guidam didn't do so well in Ireland is that he was only here for 2 seasons! And Luidam the same. It's also much much harder to sell a chestnut filly than anything else so they had that against them.
It is similar to the Olympic eventing champion, he was by an irish TB stallion called Stan The Man. A chestnut that got smaller correct chestnuts, a lot of fillys weren't registered. There is a lot of his blood around Cork still. Imagine having an unreg'd one now and the stallion dead so you can't DNA to prove parentage? I'd be kicking myself!
In short if you want to learn get an Irish one. You will pick up something decent form the sales in Cavan or Goersbridge and it costs £250 to bring them over. Bargin!
 
Tarrsteps it was me who said about ID sometimes being found in KWPN. A friend had a lovely mare out of Handel, novice eventing and had KOD 2 lines back on her passport. Friend was slightly put out to find that her rather stunning and elegant WB mare actually had ID in, till I pointed out that that particular ID was a great jump stallion. Mare was really nice and forgiving.

Still don't think I would look at an unproven WB for eventing. Somewhat hung up on WFP at Greenwich on his WB compared to say Tina Cook on the wonderful Miners Frolic (TB).
 
gadetra said:
Irish horses are bred for the job. They are raised outside on rough ground (my foals encounter banks, stppe hills, streams and forestry before their first birthdays!) and hunted early. They learn where to put hteir feet pretty sharpish if they want to stand up.
There is also a lot of TB blood in Irish breeding which gives athletiscism (sp?) and stamina. The brain comes generally in the main from the ID/ISH end, sometimes more than you'd want!
They have been crossing difficult country for centuaries, and have developed that toughness and fifth leg. They are forgiving, and learn form an early age to sort themselves out over a fence.
Also the reason Guidam didn't do so well in Ireland is that he was only here for 2 seasons! And Luidam the same. It's also much much harder to sell a chestnut filly than anything else so they had that against them.
It is similar to the Olympic eventing champion, he was by an irish TB stallion called Stan The Man. A chestnut that got smaller correct chestnuts, a lot of fillys weren't registered. There is a lot of his blood around Cork still. Imagine having an unreg'd one now and the stallion dead so you can't DNA to prove parentage? I'd be kicking myself!
In short if you want to learn get an Irish one. You will pick up something decent form the sales in Cavan or Goersbridge and it costs £250 to bring them over. Bargin!
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Interesting stories! though personally I wouldn't go to the above sales as I would prefer to go to a recommended breeder. Just to be sure I wasn't the victim of the irish sense of humour! Am lucky as well in that Irish Equine Imports brings over really nice Irish babies and he is very straight.. and will take back if the horse doesn't work out (and I mean the owner does not get on with the horse). Rather tells it as it is.

I do (coughs gently) have 1/2 eye on another poster on breeding who has a really really nice ISH being backed now but have "known" her for a while.. and see this boy from foal pictures all the way upto now..
 
gadetra said:
Irish horses are bred for the job. They are raised outside on rough ground (my foals encounter banks, stppe hills, streams and forestry before their first birthdays!) and hunted early. They learn where to put hteir feet pretty sharpish if they want to stand up.
There is also a lot of TB blood in Irish breeding which gives athletiscism (sp?) and stamina. The brain comes generally in the main from the ID/ISH end, sometimes more than you'd want!
They have been crossing difficult country for centuaries, and have developed that toughness and fifth leg. They are forgiving, and learn form an early age to sort themselves out over a fence.
Also the reason Guidam didn't do so well in Ireland is that he was only here for 2 seasons! And Luidam the same. It's also much much harder to sell a chestnut filly than anything else so they had that against them.
It is similar to the Olympic eventing champion, he was by an irish TB stallion called Stan The Man. A chestnut that got smaller correct chestnuts, a lot of fillys weren't registered. There is a lot of his blood around Cork still. Imagine having an unreg'd one now and the stallion dead so you can't DNA to prove parentage? I'd be kicking myself!
In short if you want to learn get an Irish one. You will pick up something decent form the sales in Cavan or Goersbridge and it costs £250 to bring them over. Bargin!
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Very true and they do say that Marius actually came out of Ireland.:)
 
I'm hoping to have the best of both worlds with one of my youngsters- Contender on the sire side and Cruising on the Dam side, he is a tough, clever chap and I'm really looking forward to backing him next year :)
 
Nicnac said:
OP - lots of great answers here with knowledgeable peeps giving info & advice about breeding and pro eventers with dumbloods; sorry KWPN hot blooded horses.

Back to your original question - why did your ISH hunter not take to eventing? Which phase was it that he didn't take to? I am assuming that as a hunter he was good xc?

If the KWPN is brave XC, then you could have a fab horse as flatwork and SJ are usually their forte. They can be very wussy xc so make sure you try the horse in all phases.

Personally I'd say great for pros but not always suitable for an amateur, but generalisation is always dangerous.

Have you considered an ex-racehorse? Not off the track but one with a bit of experience? I've got one who is a talented lad (not for sale tho' ;))

Having had a Belgian Warmblood and then gone Dutch and now Irish, I'll stick with what I've got now as an amateur who is getting old and with a very time consuming and pressured job!
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Yes some good points indeed. My ISH Hunter was strangely great at dressage and then died on me in SJ and was a twit when going round XC. I had other, more experienced, people try him but he was just not into working independently. Out hunting, however, was another story and he would jump anything!

I rode some ex racers in South Africa recently and they jumped beautifully so thats certainly something to explore - where does one find them though??

I am going to try a good Irish Dealer who brings some good youngsters over so I can compare. My first choice is ISH/TB's but I just came across this W/B , hence me posting on here.

Great tips and advice!
 
Marius did indeed come from Ireland, ostensibly by (not out of ;)) a horse called Middle Road. However it was definitively proven later that he was KWPN and Dutch born. I believe this may be an example of the aforementioned 'Irish sense of humour'. ;)

Anyway, I'm a bit surprised at the suggestion that a relatively inexperienced xc rider buy an unproven horse from a sale. If I was shopping for someone like that I'd want to jump some fixed fences on it and have the prospective buyer do likewise
 
I have had two bright chestnut KWPN with 4 whites, both by Grand Prix showjumper fathers (not the same one) and both were/are nervy creatures with a big panic button. One jumps and is bold, the other would hardly jump at all, but he was a congenital wobbler so that may be why. But I would never buy another bright red KWPN with a lot of white, just in case the nervy behaviour is related.
 
cptrayes said:
I have had two bright chestnut KWPN with 4 whites, both by Grand Prix showjumper fathers (not the same one) and both were/are nervy creatures with a big panic button. One jumps and is bold, the other would hardly jump at all, but he was a congenital wobbler so that may be why. But I would never buy another bright red KWPN with a lot of white, just in case the nervy behaviour is related.
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Interesting! This one's a Chestnut mare - maybe I shoudl run while I can!
 
cptrayes said:
I have had two bright chestnut KWPN with 4 whites, both by Grand Prix showjumper fathers (not the same one) and both were/are nervy creatures with a big panic button. One jumps and is bold, the other would hardly jump at all, but he was a congenital wobbler so that may be why. But I would never buy another bright red KWPN with a lot of white, just in case the nervy behaviour is related.
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Are/where the mares lines similar?
 
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