This has gone on too long.

MillyMoomie said:
Here is a thought. Call a vet, if he is a removable the vet will call the RSPCA who will then attend and go through the process with the police. It is the vets say so. Or if not removable in vets opinion the vet can issue advice and charge it to the RSPCA. This is a very common situation. So if you are that worried call a vet!!
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Vets can't just go to see horses and send bills to the RSPCA it just does not work that way.
OP I can't think of anything to say to help you , could you take him on perhaps between the BHS and the RSPCA the owner could be strong armed into giving him to you.
I used to do quite a lot of nice welfare person , nasty welfare person with the RSPCA to get changes made .
I had hoped the new welfare act was going to help in cases like this it seems it must not be doing so.
Poor old boy you both deserve better.
 
MillyMoomie said:
Whilst undoubtably underweight I would be surprised if this horse is removable under section 4 awa. You say the owner had left half a bag of food? And albeit in a not great way, has arranged feeding responsibility through you? So the owner is taking SOME responsibility then? And now the owner is aware you are the person responsible?
Now you are obviously a caring responsible person for being quite rightly concerned but is there more to the story? Can you be absoloutly sure that advice hasn't been given to the owner? Sometimes these things take time... at the end of the day the vet that supports suffering on a animal has to stand up in court and be totally convinced that NO REASONABLE STEPS HAVE BEEN TAKEN by the person responsible to ensure the needs are met. There is now 2 years of potential evidence that is damaged every time someone else feeds/waters the horse... Hard to say but true.
Would be very interested to know what happens tomorrow. Either way I hope something gets done.
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I've called various vet practices, all will tell you to call a welfare organisation and they will get their own vets out. Owner has been given advice countless time yet nothing changes. no feed, no clean field, no rugs, no vet. Yet the welfare officers never come back to check again.
Also, he has arranged nothing with me! leaving me a note telling him to feed his horse is hardly an arrangement. what if im not free? what if im going on holiday?
The horse would be dead by now if i left him more than 2-3 days without water in the middle of summer. I have dated pics of empty water buckers day after day after day.
Im not saying i want him shipped off to a rescue, i just want a better life for him. No creature with a wealthy owner deserves to starve to death due to negligence.
 
To add, im not a yard owner, yard manager or hired groom.
I simply rent the field beside him. If for instance your neighbours went on holiday without telling you but on the day they went left a note on your door saying you had to feed their skinny cat, what would you do?

my choices was feed the animal, the first hard feed he's had this year and call the welfare organisations. What did i do wrong?
 
Jessi&Magic said:
He just always says no. I've said it in jest, in a serious meeting and even left a note on his car haha!

In 2011 a previous loaner who hadn't seen him in years offered him £1,500 cash that day. He said no without hesitation. He has money, he's certainly not poor! Maybe he thinks he's worth money.
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has anyone ever asked him why not? it seems pretty rude to ask, but considering the lack of wanting the horse....i think really he should answer it...
 
Goldenstar, yes it can work like that. There is even a specific vet phone line to the call centre where treatment for wildlife and domestics that get taken to vets by members of public will get authorised to be paid for by the RSPCA. Most of the time vets won't do a thing until they know its paid for, even when it's not RSPCA generated.

OP I understand your frustration. It's a horrible situation especially as you have to see it every day. Just think though, the horse is on the radar, he is KNOWN. Just remember that everything has to be proved, and sometimes that takes time. It all comes down to the vet. The vet has the say so. My advice, tomorrow demand a equine vet comes out and has a look. Then try and be there to talk to the get yourself.
 
MillyMoomie said:
Whilst undoubtably underweight I would be surprised if this horse is removable under section 4 awa. You say the owner had left half a bag of food? And albeit in a not great way, has arranged feeding responsibility through you? So the owner is taking SOME responsibility then? And now the owner is aware you are the person responsible?
Now you are obviously a caring responsible person for being quite rightly concerned but is there more to the story? Can you be absoloutly sure that advice hasn't been given to the owner? Sometimes these things take time... at the end of the day the vet that supports suffering on a animal has to stand up in court and be totally convinced that NO REASONABLE STEPS HAVE BEEN TAKEN by the person responsible to ensure the needs are met. There is now 2 years of potential evidence that is damaged every time someone else feeds/waters the horse... Hard to say but true.
Would be very interested to know what happens tomorrow. Either way I hope something gets done.
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I have to agree that I don't on the limited evidence of the photos this horse is not removable.
I totally agree that people keeping horses going does muddy the waters as far as having a strong case in court.
But what does a loving horse person do water her horse while the other looks on its reasonable to expect someone to do this no clearly it's not .
What gets me here is that numerous agency's have seen this horse but have not made it clear to the person on the ground what they have done to try to make things better.
Why people who are not interested in horses keep them I don't know it's completely beyond me.
The owner of the land has a duty of care however pissing of field owners can quickly result in the the land owner getting rid of the problem and then the poor old horse has lost the support network with although not satisfactory was all he had, it's not easy to be the welfare officer in the middle of these situations.
If it where me I would be working to persuade the owner that it was a great idea to have a more formal arrangement for Op to care for the horse i gently lean on the land owner on the duty of care angle.
But you can't get it right for them all and a lot of HHOers would be horrified how many horses live I was in the end it got to me and had to give it up.
 
Goldenstar said:
J and M who owns the field he's in?
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Local land owner. Elderly lady. She's tried speaking to him, but she's a frail old dear and knows nothing of horses. She's spoken to rspca inspectors when they come and i direct them to her house, he's kept prince there 17 years so she has more info than i do but she's scared to speak to him. He has rough social circles and she knows he has history. She supports me in everyway however and is happy to speak to inspectors or officers but kicking him off the yard leads to questions like 'where will he put him?' 'will the rspca ect lose him?' and 'what comebacks will she have'?
 
MillyMoomie said:
Goldenstar, yes it can work like that. There is even a specific vet phone line to the call centre where treatment for wildlife and domestics that get taken to vets by members of public will get authorised to be paid for by the RSPCA. Most of the time vets won't do a thing until they know its paid for, even when it's not RSPCA generated.

OP I understand your frustration. It's a horrible situation especially as you have to see it every day. Just think though, the horse is on the radar, he is KNOWN. Just remember that everything has to be proved, and sometimes that takes time. It all comes down to the vet. The vet has the say so. My advice, tomorrow demand a equine vet comes out and has a look. Then try and be there to talk to the get yourself.
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MM this is not a wild animal or a pet a member of the public has found after a RTA it's a horse with a known owner that many agency's have seen already if OP calls the vet she will be paying the call out .
 
Jessi&Magic said:
Local land owner. Elderly lady. She's tried speaking to him, but she's a frail old dear and knows nothing of horses. She's spoken to rspca inspectors when they come and i direct them to her house, he's kept prince there 17 years so she has more info than i do but she's scared to speak to him. He has rough social circles and she knows he has history. She supports me in everyway however and is happy to speak to inspectors or officers but kicking him off the yard leads to questions like 'where will he put him?' 'will the rspca ect lose him?' and 'what comebacks will she have'?
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Ok not a lot of leverage there scaring old ladies is bad for buisness but it's great you have a good relationship with her .
 
I'm sorry that I can't think of much more to contribute than what has already been discussed, but was just musing. You say you've tried to buy him, but a friend used to loan him many years ago. Would the owner therefore not "loan" him to you instead?

Poor horse and a horrid situation for you to be in.....
 
Goldenstar said:
I have to agree that I don't on the limited evidence of the photos this horse is not removable.
I totally agree that people keeping horses going does muddy the waters as far as having a strong case in court.
But what does a loving horse person do water her horse while the other looks on its reasonable to expect someone to do this no clearly it's not .
What gets me here is that numerous agency's have seen this horse but have not made it clear to the person on the ground what they have done to try to make things better.
Why people who are not interested in horses keep them I don't know it's completely beyond me.
The owner of the land has a duty of care however pissing of field owners can quickly result in the the land owner getting rid of the problem and then the poor old horse has lost the support network with although not satisfactory was all he had, it's not easy to be the welfare officer in the middle of these situations.
If it where me I would be working to persuade the owner that it was a great idea to have a more formal arrangement for Op to care for the horse i gently lean on the land owner on the duty of care angle.
But you can't get it right for them all and a lot of HHOers would be horrified how many horses live I was in the end it got to me and had to give it up.
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I agree with what you've said but as you've put it, it's hard not to muddy the waters. I don't want to see him dehydrated, in the baking sun while i top up my mares water, and then the next day to have nothing but a dead horse to walk by.
It would haunt me for life that it would have taken minutes to fill a bucket up. He's looked alot worse than this. and i agree, theres worse welfare cases around but for two years? with all agencies working on it. and nothing has changed. last year the RSPCA removed these two horses from directly opposite princes field! They are in fine condition! Yet no one looks over to prince, he's partially concealed from the road.

http://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/9476387.RSPCA_act_over_the_plight_of____abandoned____horses/
 
Goldenstar... I have had visits and sinple treatment paid where the call has come from a mop and the equines where already 'monitored'.

If the horse is in such a state that needs removing then the bills would generally go to the RSPCA anyway.

It prob is very dependant on what area of the country you are in and what the vet/RSPCA/WHW relationships are like. I'm my experience everyone talks to each other.
 
JM you have just hit the nail on the head, the article you have posted states the horse were removed after being 'abandoned'. This means that the RSPCA were able to provide evidence to the vet and the police that their needs were not being met. So even though prince may be worse, his his ARE kind of being met aren't they?
I'm sorry I know it's hard. I think you deserve a proper conversation with all the people dealing to be given a clear idea of what's happening.
 
Well, I'm a little confused, as you're saying horse is costing you money and it sounds as if you can't really afford the time or the money (I might be wrong, this is just how it comes across)
And yet you would be more than happy to buy the horse off the owner, costing you atleast the same amount of money if not more. Why not just feed the horse and poo pick the field and care for the horse regardless, as the owner doesn't seem to mind, you clearly love the horse, the relelvant authorities aren't doing anything, and the horse gets to end his days happy and well fed?
Would the owner let you loan him if you want to make things official?
 
They weren't abandoned though (: this news article was written by fools. I'll get the next part where they say the horse had a crack in its hoof and risked having the leg amputated :rolleyes:

These horses were signed over to me by their previous owner who didn't fancy a conviction. but by no means had abandoned them! Both now have lovely owners (perm loans) but still live together!

http://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/local/9484865.Rescuer_Alan_gives_abandoned_horses_a_new_life/

Notice how im not even mentioned!! they took my picture and interveiw! The gentleman has taken sonny and belle has a little girl that rides her.
 
ridefast said:
Well, I'm a little confused, as you're saying horse is costing you money and it sounds as if you can't really afford the time or the money (I might be wrong, this is just how it comes across)
And yet you would be more than happy to buy the horse off the owner, costing you atleast the same amount of money if not more. Why not just feed the horse and poo pick the field and care for the horse regardless, as the owner doesn't seem to mind, you clearly love the horse, the relelvant authorities aren't doing anything, and the horse gets to end his days happy and well fed?
Would the owner let you loan him if you want to make things official?
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No worries, i'll try harder to explain (: I offered to buy him before i had bought my mare, last year.
He's not costing me money at all, but i was saying if the feed he's left runs out i'll have to buy more i suppose.
I'm coming to the conclussion that at the end of the year i might have to sell up and move out. I wouldn't be able to care for him if i wasn't coming down to do my horse. I just want him happy.
 
personally I feel there is alot more going on here, Redwings have attended previously with a vet team. You've either spoken to or had BHS attend previously and RSPCA have been out both today and yesterday??? and the horse is still there....

Phone the RSPCA and ask the officer dealing gives you a little information, by law they cannot give alot (data protection), but maybe they can give you a bit of an idea of what's happening if you inform them of the time span of this.

I agree that I think you're interventions whilst helping him short term, may have been hindering him long term as I don't from those photos think a vet would deem him to be in a suffering state and therefore warrant immediate removal. But then I am not a vet, so if at the end of the day you are not happy with what all the charities are doing. Call a vet out yourself and see what they say. If suffering is given, have the vet phone the RSPCA or police direct......
 
MillyMoomie said:
So they weren't abandoned? Ok I will find out through some contacts exactly what the reason was.
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Nope, owner only lived down the road. They were for sale but the owner signed them over for no fee. I even have the reciept (:
Rspca were bearly involved, had no follow ups from them when i got the horses and none since.

Find out through contacts what reasons?
 
Jessi&Magic said:
No worries, i'll try harder to explain (: I offered to buy him before i had bought my mare, last year.
He's not costing me money at all, but i was saying if the feed he's left runs out i'll have to buy more i suppose.
I'm coming to the conclussion that at the end of the year i might have to sell up and move out. I wouldn't be able to care for him if i wasn't coming down to do my horse. I just want him happy.
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Ok, yes that makes more sense. Well would he be happy to loan the horse to you? Maybe he's worried about what happens to the horse if he were sold (He might consider himself a good owner!!) But as the horse has been loaned before would that be an option?
 
competitiondiva said:
personally I feel there is alot more going on here, Redwings have attended previously with a vet team. You've either spoken to or had BHS attend previously and RSPCA have been out both today and yesterday??? and the horse is still there....

Phone the RSPCA and ask the officer dealing gives you a little information, by law they cannot give alot (data protection), but maybe they can give you a bit of an idea of what's happening if you inform them of the time span of this.

I agree that I think you're interventions whilst helping him short term, may have been hindering him long term as I don't from those photos think a vet would deem him to be in a suffering state and therefore warrant immediate removal. But then I am not a vet, so if at the end of the day you are not happy with what all the charities are doing. Call a vet out yourself and see what they say. If suffering is given, have the vet phone the RSPCA or police direct......
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I understand, If i call the rspca they say the case is pending investigation. I'm not on a witch hunt but i just hope the charities are doing all that they can. Two years just seems like too long for a horse to be constantly underweight. I'm not a vet either, I've seen off the track racehorses looking worse than him, i'll agree but i'd be happy with his owner feeding him and slapping a rug on in the minus temps, thats all.
 
ridefast said:
Ok, yes that makes more sense. Well would he be happy to loan the horse to you? Maybe he's worried about what happens to the horse if he were sold (He might consider himself a good owner!!) But as the horse has been loaned before would that be an option?
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I wouldn't mind loaning him, just to potter about and talk to but all previous loans have simply been part loans, the horse has never left the field or exchanged hands. If i do have to leave the yard, he'll just go back to being uncared for and maybe no one will call the welfare organisations :(
 
Bhs lady came down, wrote lots down and asked alot of questions. Alot more than anyone else and she actually went in the field to see him! Has given me a compliance note to give the owner when he returns. It states that the horse is a 1.5 body condition and has very split hooves and the field needs cleaning and de- ragworting.
The lady was very kind, but i did stress that now was the time to act, not so i have to call again in six months because he's still loosing weight, not being fed and his field is still covered in muck.
Just a waiting game now i suppose.
 
well done for hanging in there, however, does the bhs lady have any power to make owner do something , or would she have to pass to rspca ?
 
alma said:
well done for hanging in there, however, does the bhs lady have any power to make owner do something , or would she have to pass to rspca ?
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BHS Welfare, WHW and RSPCA have the same powers & all have training, just that the RSPCA has limitless funds for some instances (IMHO) and they wear uniforms.

The ones that DO have immediate legal powers are: Animal Welfare person at your council offices (usually based in the environmental health dept), Vet or Police
 
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