This horse has my number!

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SavvyTaylorMinogue

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I will start if by admitting "yes I am "that" adult beginner rider who went out and bought a horse".

I did grow up with horses and of course after not riding for 15 years I got back into weekly lessons and after a further 12ish months bought my first horse as an adult.

Just after some advice/suggestions/a springboard for thoughts.

I have had Rufus now for 4months who is a 12yo Cleveland Bay who was retired from eventing 2 years ago after injuring his suspensory ligaments, was rehabed and all cleared but not for anything above 60cm, light schooling and hacking.
He was trained with his previous owner up to Elementry in dressage but after his injury his previous owner just didn't feel he had the heart or love any more and she had aspirations for moving up.

Now he is a big solid boy and he knows it, can have attitude and can be extremely stubborn/lazy - I was aware when I purchased.
To say the 4 months has been roller-coaster is an understatement.

He definitely took a while to settle in to his new environment.
He wouldn't let me pick up his feet, he's pushy, super food dominant, fidgety and impatient in the cross ties, paws at the ground in the cross ties, paced back & forth and behaves like a bit of a pig - picture a small child being dragged around. I realised very quickly how spoilt I was to have ponies/horses as a kid that just did everything with ease (mostly) and I have never encountered this level of stubbornness or 'testing'.

From word go he baulked and naps and I could not get him to go (yes it trialled him first and it was fine) I did everything you could imagine in terms of nose to foot, increasing leg pressure, kicking increasing crop - he just goes dead to it, turning/circling, rewarding minute movements etc but when he decideds no, he means no and he could keep it up for an hour but of course my trainer has no issues (mostly) with him.

My agistment (livery) yard is also does training/re-education and has a rising school my current trainers were and are always positive that he's a good horse but he is hard work but will teach you lots type of attitude and that I am just too soft.

He did 2 weeks with the trainer and was like a new horse, calm settled and all tuned up.
We were in a good rhythm of 45mins in the school 3 x per week, 1 lesson with my coach/trainer I had just started building his confidence to hack by taking him on short strolls 10-15mins after schooling sessions. Our lessons were not perfect, but we'd worked on him picking up his feet and had been having a lot "wins" during our rides the past 3.5 weeks post his bootcamp.

And then this week it all changed, he has 3 days off Wed, Thurs Friday and yesterday we were back to day 1. Flat out refusal to move, I managed a half lap of trot in one direction, lots of spinning, side passes, waited him out etc and after 60minutes I gave up.

He does bounce/hop around, backs up, kicks out, turns to nip at my foot etc which in the past did scare me but I am past this as with my trainer we have discovered all empty threats (I was scared of rearing).

I realise he is testing me and my leadership and it's frustrating, I've been working on it, ground work exercises etc but I find that every thing I read or every video I watch they never show what happens when whatever advice or suggestion they give does not work when your out there on your own doing it - I cannot even get him to lunge.
I do work on things like this in my lessons and of course they go fine but I cannot literally have a trainer/coach by my side every minute - who again tells me he is the perfect horse to learn with because he does not have malice, well trained and beautifully trained we just have to get past this.

I'm feeling very deflated as I know sending him back for training won't fix it all, he'll come back amazing for a few weeks and tuned up but I haven't done anything because I realize I am clearly the problem but I am at a loss as how to keep working on it and how much time I should give it.
I feel stuck especially as I cannot have another outside instructor/coach come to our facility for ground work specific lessons and I currently cannot float out.

😔😔😔
 
Let me also add:
He is on Digestive supplements and flaxseed oil.
He has a regular body worker appointment - she's actually due tomorrow.
His feet are also due this week.
I have booked an endoscope appointment this week with vet just in case and I am planning to get the saddle fitter out so I can check all of this off since I felt his regression came on quick

It's possible there were other behavioural signs/warnings that he was getting spicey and Mr incharge that I missed 💁‍♀️
 
I’d be concerned that there might actually be a physical issue relating to his previous suspensory issue.
Not wanting to go forwards, napping, kicking out when leg is put on are very common in horses with this problem (I had one).
A strong rider might be able to ride them through it, but I would be erring on the side of caution and getting the vet out to check things are ok.

Suspensory issues can recur and can be an absolute nightmare to deal with long term, which probably isn’t what you want to hear.
 
personally I would stop riding till vets been out, there all sound like pain responses. My new horse did exactly this and had various issues causing pain. Did you have him vetted? I didn’t get my last horse vetted either

What are you asking of him in the school as I suspect being sold as a light hack means he may not be up for more than that.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I may be wrong but I'm also not sure that 45 mins x 3 of schooling per week is 'light schooling' so it may be that you need to revists your expectations regarding what workload his suspensory problems can withstand.
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Thats a good point my horse with hind suspensory issues doesn't get schooled hardly at all now, the most I would do is 15 to 20 minutes he is 20 now so I mainly just hack him.
 
Another that would want to rule out the napping being a pain response before pushing through it, so good that you’re getting the vet out to give him a check up. I also agree that that level of schooling might be more than he’s capable of as a light hack. I have one with suspensory damage from an injury to his sesamoid and was told in no uncertain terms that anything more than very light schooling on a suitable surface would likely be detrimental to keeping him sound and comfortable long term.
 
In regards to his work this is based off what his previous Vet and owner had set up for him post injury.
I was advised 4 x a week schooling max
Basically limit his work to no more than 5 sessions total and with his school no jumping over 60cm and keep his dressage work basic.

So far our work has literally just been basic - long loose warm up 20mins minimal collected work and a little cantering on each rein - just working on finding our ryrhym and groove.
But of course I understand this all just they said she said etc etc and all though he was doing the same thing before I got him and he was vetted he could of flared it up zooming around haha.
We shall see what the vet says 👍
 
My vet (highly regarded at Rossdales) always said the biggest danger point for older horses or those with management needs was a change of home as even if they’d been coping fine up til that point, a change in rider/management/setup could easily cause niggles to flare up.

I’m curious as to the previous owner’s definition of light schooling as it’s very rare that any of mine would do 4 days of schooling in a week when they’re fit and well, let alone with pre-existing suspensory issues, but if you’ve spoken to their vet and received guidance on that front that’s really all you can do in terms of understanding what’s worked for them in keeping him sound up til now.

What’s clear from your OP is the horse is very clearly trying to tell you something isn’t right, hopefully your vet will be able to shed some light on the problem. In the meantime I’d reframe his behaviour in your mind, as it very much sounds like he’s unhappy and in pain rather than trying to get one over on you.
 
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Sorry but these are all signs my horse with suspensory issues showed. Sounds like they may be bothering him again and he probably isn’t up to the work load you were told/thought. I wouldn’t want to be schooling a horse with suspensorys problems 3x 45 mins a week. What’s the arena surface like? They do best on firm surfaces.
 
Personally, my experience was Cleveland Bays have been typically bred to be very strong characters.

I have known lots of very NAPPY CBs. Not everything is pain, though 99% of things turn out to be pain.

By all means rule out pain, but he might just be a very strong willed horse that knows he's got the better of you.

If you can establish he is sound, I would sell him to a more assertive more experienced rider, and get something kinder that you can have fun with.
 
Update: Vet confirmed mild lameness today so he's on rest but not NSAIDs as he's booked for overnight stay, scope and full work up starting from scratch to re scan/x-ray everything with someone who happens to be a specialist (and was available when he is in for his scope lucky me) and we will compare with his previous scans and go from there.

Regarding his schooling/workload up until this point the work was specifically advised/approved by the vet originally but of course things change :)
Will update again once he's all worked over- appreciate the thoughts/ideas.
Thank you
 
Fieldlife said:
Personally, my experience was Cleveland Bays have been typically bred to be very strong characters.

I have known lots of very NAPPY CBs. Not everything is pain, though 99% of things turn out to be pain.

By all means rule out pain, but he might just be a very strong willed horse that knows he's got the better of you.

If you can establish he is sound, I would sell him to a more assertive more experienced rider, and get something kinder that you can have fun with.
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Yes I was advised by my trainer the same exact thing regarding his breed/character and this was how his previous owner would also describe him so I will admit I WAS warned. He has a sliding scale of giant cuddly teddy bear when he's happy and getting what he wants to nappy mule - lol but of course his behaviour came on too quick with other signs so will investigate and do the due diligence as is only right and fair to him.

I have definately set myself a limit that if it turns out long term he will be sound and fine and we are still struggling to re-home appropriately and start again. This is currently my rationale brain and my emotional attached on does get in way.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
I'm glad you're doing a complete overhaul. I sunk when you said previous suspensory issues and stubborn behaviour. I think once they've done a suspensory, then schooling in an arena is usually out if you don't want a re-injury. Often, a suspensory injury is more a nagging one and doesn't produce a clear lameness. The long term nagging pain does bring on reluctance to work though.

I find that vets will recommend a fitness program to see how far the horse can go, as some do go on to compete again. If the horse struggles, they will then re-assess, re-treat, re-rest and bring back into a lower level of work.
 
SavvyTaylorMinogue said:
Update: Vet confirmed mild lameness today so he's on rest but not NSAIDs as he's booked for overnight stay, scope and full work up starting from scratch to re scan/x-ray everything with someone who happens to be a specialist (and was available when he is in for his scope lucky me) and we will compare with his previous scans and go from there.

Regarding his schooling/workload up until this point the work was specifically advised/approved by the vet originally but of course things change :)
Will update again once he's all worked over- appreciate the thoughts/ideas.
Thank you
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Well done OP, I’m sure you’ll get some answers then on how to manage. Did previous owner tell you of the management or did this come direct from vet?

I have a few friends with horses with same condition and were all told no schooling , only straight lines , no jumping but they hack. I recall the rehab building up the hacking very slowly but they can walk/trot/canter and go out for longer now. I’m not a vet though and guess they will all have very different needs.
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Well done OP, I’m sure you’ll get some answers then on how to manage. Did previous owner tell you of the management or did this come direct from vet?

I have a few friends with horses with same condition and were all told no schooling , only straight lines , no jumping but they hack. I recall the rehab building up the hacking very slowly but they can walk/trot/canter and go out for longer now. I’m not a vet though and guess they will all have very different needs.
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Hello
Yes the info from previous owner and her vet.
I truelly believe she had best intentions for him as she was honest and shared all of his previous medical/vet files and had notes and everything transferred to my vet when we were doing the vetting etc.
She also turned down a few potential buyers as she felt they weren't right or not truthful so I would give her the benefit of doubt.
She was very dedicated to his rehab with original injury a few years ago so I do suspect as someone else already mentioned it is potential for the perfect storm - lots of change, new environment, rider etc etx stress blah blah :)

Hoping for the best I have to wait for 4 days and I am hoping to remain positive haha.

And when it comes to selling him IF that did happen it would only be to where or whatever he needed/required not a quick offload and on my way I do have his best interests otherwise why bother going down the path of re-working him and I have had 2 different vets out in 2 days :)
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Well done OP, I’m sure you’ll get some answers then on how to manage. Did previous owner tell you of the management or did this come direct from vet?

I have a few friends with horses with same condition and were all told no schooling , only straight lines , no jumping but they hack. I recall the rehab building up the hacking very slowly but they can walk/trot/canter and go out for longer now. I’m not a vet though and guess they will all have very different needs.
Click to expand...
 
SavvyTaylorMinogue said:
Hello
Yes the info from previous owner and her vet.
I truelly believe she had best intentions for him as she was honest and shared all of his previous medical/vet files and had notes and everything transferred to my vet when we were doing the vetting etc.
She also turned down a few potential buyers as she felt they weren't right or not truthful so I would give her the benefit of doubt.
She was very dedicated to his rehab with original injury a few years ago so I do suspect as someone else already mentioned it is potential for the perfect storm - lots of change, new environment, rider etc etx stress blah blah :)

Hoping for the best I have to wait for 4 days and I am hoping to remain positive haha.

And when it comes to selling him IF that did happen it would only be to where or whatever he needed/required not a quick offload and on my way I do have his best interests otherwise why bother going down the path of re-working him and I have had 2 different vets out in 2 days :)
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How did he get on ?!
 
Small update:
Scope completed and he definatly has sqaumos ulcers.
They couldn't see his pyloric since he was fasted correctly for 14+ but very determinedly at his own poop through a muzzle 😭 And they scope him twice - AM and late afternoon.
He also had a super high Bot burden.
So injectable meds starting weekly were going to treat for both squamous and pyloric and good Worming program.

Lameness wise still undetermined apparently they had "that kind of day" and although the specialist had some time with him only half his lameness workup done 😒
Vet is back tomorrow start his first round of meds and reassess the leg.
And plan for new xrays and ultrasound.
 
SavvyTaylorMinogue said:
Small update:
Scope completed and he definatly has sqaumos ulcers.
They couldn't see his pyloric since he was fasted correctly for 14+ but very determinedly at his own poop through a muzzle 😭 And they scope him twice - AM and late afternoon.
He also had a super high Bot burden.
So injectable meds starting weekly were going to treat for both squamous and pyloric and good Worming program.

Lameness wise still undetermined apparently they had "that kind of day" and although the specialist had some time with him only half his lameness workup done 😒
Vet is back tomorrow start his first round of meds and reassess the leg.
And plan for new xrays and ultrasound.
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Well done , hopefully insurance pay, my friends just had the ulcer treatment I was flabbergasted by how much it was.

Did the vet advise continue to rest ?
 
Update:
We are 2 5 weeks into ulcer injections and overall good improvement to his temperament.
Finally his full lameness report came back as vet did various blocks in a few places to rule out multiple things. Ultrasound reveal PSD Is flared. No hole or acute tear but inflammation and visible scar tissue - expected as old injury.

Very gutted - vet has given conservative 4 more weeks rest, theb shockwave and 12 week rehab option or surgery + rehab and just trying to weight it all up.
pros, cons etc
Given old injury and chronic nature vet was inclined towards surgery but of course said think on it 😮‍💨😮‍💨😮‍💨😮‍💨
 
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