This makes me so angry!!

Cavblacks said:
Were you looking for the fluffy hamster one which condones hamster balls! :D;):D
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Hamsters?! WHERE?!

I'm feeling a but peckish, and my rifle is right here... ;):D

The real question is.........

What side dish goes well with Hamsterr Du'Thelwell_girl?! Or deep fried hamster balls?! :p
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I can't see the video, my computer won't load it, but from reading posts it sounds awful. Repeatly beating a horse hard is really bad, but i don't mind a few smacks, a small tickle with the whip doesn't do a thing and there's no point in even having one then, unless your horse only needs that, but i'm talking about lazy horses whose riders kick kick kick then a tiny use of whip that doesn't make a differance which is annoying. But there is no need for 'beating' your horse, a few smacks is enough
 
jumpinghorse said:
...Repeatly beating a horse hard is really bad, but i don't mind a few smacks, a small tickle with the whip doesn't do a thing and there's no point in even having one then, unless your horse only needs that, but i'm talking about lazy horses whose riders kick kick kick then a tiny use of whip that doesn't make a differance which is annoying. But there is no need for 'beating' your horse, a few smacks is enough
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Very true, jumpinghorse.
 
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So out of interest, for the people who think that comments are inappropriate because we don't know the particulars, what further particulars do you think would justify hitting the horse 12 times?
 
As people have mentioned you do not always know what has gone on behind closed doors, we don't know the horse or the rider or the situation.

But no matter what the situation how ever much you have lost your temper nobody should EVER do that to a horse.

I am by no means fluffy, I don't see anything wrong with using a whip etc. but thats beating the horse, it won't learn anything from that.

I hope he gets what he desevres.
 
flamehead said:
So you guys have never lost your temper? How wonderful to be you.
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Cause I have-it's what walls and ranting were invented for ;)

I am not anti smacking at all,horse/human/whatever-there are times when A smack is the best solution to the bad behaviour presented.
Have never and will never hit a living thing out of temper though.

flamehead said:
I'm not saying its RIGHT, I'm just saying that you don't know the situation so take your sticky beaks elsewhere.
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If it is not right it is wrong.Simples.
Both acording to the rules of the sport and commen decency,hitting(and it does beyound a repremanding smack) is never OK.
We all know horses live in the moment and dont think ahead like us,but the do remember. How do you think that horse will feel about his rider in the future? Just as with beaten children it is not he pain that does the damage,but the breech of trust.

One of the first things I was taught was that good horsemen think "there is always another day" while bad ones think "there is always another horse".
 
boogles said:
Obviously the FEI are dis-pleased with this mans as they are taking action against his behaviour, a SHOW is NOT a place to school a horse!
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Errr, he wasn't schooling it, he was battering it. I get your drift, but that sort of behaviour should not be undertaken at home either. If that is schooling, then I am doing it all wrong! This sort of behaviour is unnecessary and shows a lack of respect for the rules and more importantly the horse....
 
Seen the video and there is NO excuse for beating a horse like that.
No-one in their right mind can candone this treatment - its abuse - pure and simple! Same category as race jockeys who beat their horses. Ignorant arrogant b*****ds who think they can get away with it and often do.
 
RunToEarth said:
This forum is so fluffy at times it is stupid.
Yes he should have been done for the three and out rule, but I honestly can't see where some of you come from, you know nothing about the horse or the rider, and I doubt a lot about the ins and outs of competing at that level.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

sorry but...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Better all give up now everyone, Here Is The Wise Old Sage Of Olde, who know MUCH MUCH more than us local yokels.....

Let me spell it out...

The....rider.....broke.....the......rules......which.....are....put....in....place....for.....the....protection...of.....the....horse....

Is it clear enough for you yet? Or are you going to tell us you are an Olympic gold Medallist in the Equestrian world, therefore you have the right to beat a horse over a jump like that?
 
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anima said:
One of the first things I was taught was that good horsemen think "there is always another day" while bad ones think "there is always another horse".
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Thats a fab quote Anima!

Rebelzmum said:
...This sort of behaviour is unnecessary and shows a lack of respect for the rules and more importantly the horse....
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micramadam said:
...No-one in their right mind can candone this treatment - its abuse - pure and simple!...
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VioletStripe said:
..The hell is he doing?! The line up for the jump wasn't even right by the looks of it - no sense in whacking the poor animal! :( xx
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All too true!
 
Soon as you're in the ring,it's all smiles, subtlety and sticking to the rules.

Do what you like behind closed doors, but in the public eye, all be it local level or top level shows, discretion and professionality should take priority regardless.
 
I don't know much about horses or riding. So can someone explain all this to me (one of the non-emotional types, by PM if you prefer).

I couldn't tell from the angle of the camera if the approach was wrong or right. The rider had enough time before the jump, so I can only assume that it wasn't too far off; if it was off. But the beating comments have confused me a tad. The horse got a smack, and the rider hit the horse with every stride. I agree, that he raised his arm so high does make it look like he was putting a bit of force into each hit. Which doesn't look good at all. But the rider doesn't look like he lost control. He wasn't randomly hitting the horse and "beating the s@@t" out of it, as some comments have suggested. The horse wasn't reacting (to my very untrained eyes) like a horse that was being put under severe physical duress. I do agree that his hits looked too vigorous by far (!) but I don't know how hard he actually connected with the horse.

As for hitting the horse too often. Yeah. Probably. But encouraging the horse every stride on the approach doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world to do. The horse has just refused. He's turned the horse and approached the same jump again. The horse knows that it's facing the same jump, but every stride is being encouraged forward so refusing it isn't likely. I've no idea if the horse is an angel at home and never refuses. I don't know if the horse only ever refuses at shows: in which case there is no choice but to school the horse at the show; irrespective of the "three hits per jump" rule.

So: I'm looking for a kind and wise soul to point out where I'm wrong and why as learning is something I'm keen to do. As I said - feel free to PM if the words you need to use will require you to both insult and humiliate me :)
 
Voltarama, a calm and logical post in an otherwise messy whirlwind! I agree with you but will be proved wrong im sure.
 
Given the level of schooling needed to get to that level to start with,the horse should respond to legs.
If the rider felt it needed reminding that forward was the only option allowed,he should have used legs every stride then the whip for the last 3 for extra "oomph".
A crack with the whip every stride from a fair way off is simply not acceptable.
 
It looked, to me, like the line was completely to the right and he ended up in front of the wing first attempt and the horse just looked 'lost' to me.

Communication fail.
 
anima said:
Given the level of schooling needed to get to that level to start with,the horse should respond to legs.
If the rider felt it needed reminding that forward was the only option allowed,he should have used legs every stride then the whip for the last 3 for extra "oomph".
A crack with the whip every stride from a fair way off is simply not acceptable.
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Precisely.
 
I'm not sure I would call that kind of hitting 'encouragment' more like unnecessary agressive enforcement. I also agree at that level the horse should respond to the leg, unnecessary whipping should not be used at any level of riding.

I think 95% of people on this thread agree that it was totally uncalled for, If some find it acceptable then fair enough, but it does make me wonder.
 
flamehead said:
Ok, here's my "reasoned arguement".

Below is a photo of my dog (and my OHs legs!).

shower.jpg


Now, from this photo you could (sort of) reasonably presume a variety of things:

1. Chloe is having a shower because she'd just jumped in the water feature.
2. He is punishing her for a naughty act by spraying her repeatedly up the nose (hence the grip on her collar).
3. He is about to strangle her with the hose.
4. He is about to whip her with the hose.
5. He's about to set his dangerous black lab onto a passer by, with the intention to then spray them with the hose.
6. He's grabbing Chloe to stop her running under a car.
7. He's grabbing Chloe to stop her shaking water all over my camera.
8. Chloe is wet because he's being trying to drown her in a pond he's been filling up with the hose.
9. The bottle in the background is his weapon of abuse that he regularly beats her with.

Now, because I am telling you, actually the photo shows what option number 1 suggests - and we love the pup very much!!

What I'm saying, though, is that you don't for definite know the situation, so you COULD assume many things from it. You could assume that we're horrific dog owners who abuse the pups.

You can't KNOW from one video of one situation, the definitive truth on what the story behind this is. You don't know the person (well, I'm assuming you don't anyway), and you don't know the horse.

Hannah xx
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Occam's razon does spring to mind, but perhaps you are right maybe the rider has Turrett's and is not responsible for his actions.
 
sarahsum1 said:
I'm not sure I would call that kind of hitting 'encouragment' more like unnecessary agressive enforcement. I also agree at that level the horse should respond to the leg, unnecessary whipping should not be used at any level of riding.

I think 95% of people on this thread agree that it was totally uncalled for, If some find it acceptable then fair enough, but it does make me wonder.
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The "hits" looked far too vigorous to me. But again: I know very little.

But encouraging the horse at every stride doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing (I know very little - I've said that: but in case anyone forgets) if the horse doesn't feel like it's taking him forward enough to clear the jump.

From a schooling perspective: is it not acceptable to encourage the horse with every stride until it's taking you forward correctly? (I'm asking a question, not trying to make a point).

I take the point that the horse should respond to the leg. But if he hadn't been hitting the horse with so much (what appears to be) vigour - would there be anything wrong from a pure schooling perspective of using a stick instead? I'm guessing after one refusal the rider knew that there was little chance of being placed and turned it into a schooling session - whether within the rules or not (the horse doesn't know the rules and probably doesn't care about disqualification).

Again - before anyone jumps down my throat - I genuinely do not know and am asking questions to improve my knowledge. Not to make a point.
 
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A photo of a sodden pup, is different to a video with a guy smacking it 13 times....

And surely the fact that official discipline was taken against him for it says something...
 
If the horse is dead to the leg, hitting every stride is not really the way to solve this. Instead you need to get the horse listening, by doing lots of transitions, turns, circles, serpentines, loops etc - basically making it listen to you and not fall asleep. Someone with a good enough leg position may also want to consider spurs.

Whacking a horse constantly is only go to either scare it, or make it dead to the whip as well as the leg. If one or two well timed smacks aren't doing it you need to go back to the drawing board and think of another plan.
 
Voltarama said:
The "hits" looked far too vigorous to me. But again: I know very little.

But encouraging the horse at every stride doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing (I know very little - I've said that: but in case anyone forgets) if the horse doesn't feel like it's taking him forward enough to clear the jump.

From a schooling perspective: is it not acceptable to encourage the horse with every stride until it's taking your forward correctly? (I'm asking a question, not trying to make a point).

I take the point that the horse should respond to the leg. But if he hadn't been hitting the horse with so much (what appears to be) vigour - would there be anything wrong from a pure schooling perspective of using a stick instead? I'm guessing after one refusal the rider knew that there was little chance of being placed and turned it into a schooling session - whether within the rules or not (the horse doesn't know the rules and probably doesn't care about disqualification).

Again - before anyone jumps down my throat - I genuinely do not know and am asking questions to improve my knowledge. Not to make a point.
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I think it's a case of agree to disagree, because i see no 'encouragment' in that video, just unnecessary hitting/whipping/wacking. Imagine the uproar if we all rode our horses like that. That is why there is a 3 wack rule. Horses should respond to the leg.

ETA which leads me to believe that anything over 3 wacks would be considered crulety. Not to mention un-horsemanship like.
ETA again :D surely this rider knows of the rules? So this would make me think he lost his temper. Why risk being pulled up by the FEI? (or whoever it is)
 
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I never use a whip on my pony as she was previously abused and beaten. if i tried to used a whip on her that way i would end up on my ass! and wouldn't see her ever again!
I think there was completly no need for his behaviour and no horse should be treated like this!
You don't need to "know the situation" you can clearly see that he is in the wrong as his run up to the jump is too far to the right as he ends up infont of the jump wing!
I completly agree with telling a horse off and giving it a smack when its naughty but there is a big difference between a smack and beating a horse!
 
sarahsum1 said:
I think it's a case of agree to disagree, because i see no 'encouragment' in that video, just unnecessary hitting/whipping/wacking. Imagine the uproar if we all rode our horses like that. That is why there is a 3 wack rule. Horses should respond to the leg.
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I'm not saying I agree with what was in the video at all! Please don't think that. Clearly I'm unable to articulate my questions in such a way not have me branded as someone who thinks "hitting" a horse is acceptable. Which I don't. So I'll leave this thread.
 
Voltarama said:
I'm not saying I agree with what was in the video at all! Please don't think that. Clearly I'm unable to articulate my questions in such a way not have me branded as someone who thinks "hitting" a horse is acceptable. Which I don't. So I'll leave this thread.
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:DLol it's probably me not reading things properly. But yes you leave before I have you hauled up before the man burning committee :D
I'm leaving this thread too, I have made my point ten times over and will give others a chance to post :o

Over and out :)
 
I strongly disagree with this rider's use of the whip, regardless of what goes on behind closed doors or his motives for it. That's my personal opinion and, if I'm entirely honest, it does make me think less of people who give the impression/opinion that they think the rider's actions were acceptable. I am not at all an expert rider and I'm not pretending to be one, I just can't see that there is ever reason to treat a horse that way. If he acted in anger and even if he repented for doing so, he should still be suitably punished for his actions and should learn his lesson from it.

As for using the stick as encouragement, I can understand the logic behind Voltarema's questioning. I just think that beating with the stick in such a way is not an acceptable method of encouragement, and fortunately for me most people agree, just as sticking a rocket up the horse's backside wouldn't be suitable either!
 
Voltarama said:
I'm not saying I agree with what was in the video at all! Please don't think that. Clearly I'm unable to articulate my questions in such a way not have me branded as someone who thinks "hitting" a horse is acceptable. Which I don't. So I'll leave this thread.
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I think I read your post in the way you intended it. I'm no expert rider by any means but in my view. Rather than using the whip to encourage the horse he used it to beat the horse an unnecessary amount of time and with brute force. It doesnt look like he approached the fence right and I dont think blame even lay with the horse (even if it had I still wouldnt condone what the rider did).
 
I am far from fluffy and I have no problem with a stick of whip being used by a calm rider in an appropriate circumstance. However, I do have a problem with what I saw in the video. I agree the line appeared way off, but it is difficult to tell from the camera angle - it does look like it was a rider-horse approach fail! I don't particulaly like the smack down the shoulder at the fence approach, you train a horse that a stick re-enforces the leg aid, be it a short stick or a dressage whip. When do we use our legs on the shoulder? I don't think you should cross the line between an aid that hels re-enforce other aids and 'punishment'. I don't mind a smack behind the leg on the approach, on many horses is 'switches them back on'. There is no need for repeated hitting like that tho.

I think the guy lost his temper plain and simple. I've seen pros and non pros do it. I honestly don't 'get' it - I have ridden hundreds of horses over the years, and have never lost it physically with a horse (mentally, sure, I've called plenty of horses fornicating children of unwed mothers...) I guess I don't get people hitting children either - never done that either. And I think it weird that people don't believe you when you say you have never beaten a horse (especailly when you have worked with them), yet it is not surprising for people to say they have never hit a child - same reflex in my mind, anger to violence, not acceptable ever.

That said... I had a favourite teaching trick when I taught children who were scared to smack their (taking the pee) ponies. I would let them hit me on the leg, as hard as they liked with one of the whips, then pointed out the size difference between me and the pony. It got the message across that whips are not evil, and they are not going to inflict severe pain by using one. I don't think the horse in the video was in particular distress, which could of course suggest that it was mild compared with normal, but I choose to believe that it is because he wasn't actually that bothered by it (given the adrenaline pumping it is feasible). That doesn't excuse the rider's behaviour, but from the one video, I don't believe the horse was traumatised by it. By all means, punish him, he broke the rules (that he was well aware of) and rightly so.

BTW, I think shows are a great schooling tool for young horses, plenty of riders school around shows for the experience, rather than to win. Oddly, that is the comment I found most strange on here!
 
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