Thoroughbreds

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icestationzebra

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There is a post going on in New Lounge about TB's being given away, left tied up unsold at the sales, being bought for 15p - you get the idea! Of course it has decended into an emotional hotbed of those that try to shock by talking about the meat man, and those that are close to tears because someone has suggested that a horse with 3 bent legs, a penchant for rearing and running backwards with a serious aversion to cars, bikes, tractors, buckets, rugs, hoof picks and headcollars is nothing but the best horse in the world.

Ok, I digress. I guess I just wanted a sensible debate about TB's, their worth and what the hell should we doing about horses being 'left at sales' even though this may well be 'sensationalism'. It incredible to think that some of the most fantastic event horses were bred to race - Miners Frolic for one, and then there are so many really poor specimens. It's sad I think :( I applaud trainers that try and find new homes for those whose career has ended but is supply simply far outweighing demand?

thoughts?
 
I dont know much about the waste from the TB racing industry other than what I read in the news. I also read about how unregistered/unpassported Irish cobs ect were being abandoned, killed, and given away for 8euros at sales in Ireland because supply had exceeded demand.
It's all disgusting and a sad sign of the times. :(
I do think though that there is much better publicity now surrounding ex-racers and their abilities as riding horses. There are better charities now like Greatwood who are able to look after the failed racers. I joined Greatwood after I lost my Grey and I was looking for another ex-racer, they had a wait list for horses as long as my arm and I ended up getting my boy through another source in the end so demand for ex-racers is there.
Unfortunatly there will always be those specimens that are not suitable for retraining and the responsibility should lie with the owners and they need to be educated to PTS instead of passing the horse on for a final quick buck :(
 
From my experience - the ones out of racing, if they are suitable for another job, then the trainers often have a long list of contacts to ring and often have little problem rehoming.

I personally really enjoy working with TB's - they are highly intelligent, learn quickly and can be suited to a range of jobs dependent on the individuals talent.

That said, they do generally take more looking after, rugs feed etc and are not always suited to the 'ride at the weekend but not during the week' brigade and this is there downfall. This and the fact that there skin is so sensitive that every nick turns into a crisis!! (I know - I shouldn't generalise....They are just not as hardy as the cobs and the natives and this is why they are less popular.

I know many TB's that have fab competition homes, and others that are great for RC/PC and some perfect happy hackers.

Over production and wastage is the issue, coupled with the economic climate. I can't afford to take a horse on at the moment - would I take a TB that I gelled with when I could - yes of course!

Would I prefer the TB's that aren't suited to a riding home to be put down (whether at the yard or the abattoir) - yes. Better that than neglect.
 
At the end of the day there are people who like TBs and those who don't; ditto for WB, natives, cobs etc. I fail to see the point in some of the replies posted in NL where posters purposely goad and upset others!?

I'm a huge TB fan but even when actively looking have never found this elusive "free" TB. I'm sure it happens if you know the right people but have yet to hear of one, passport in teeth, looking for a new home. In saying that I'm in central Scotland so not exactly a hive of TB activity or close to any tracks.

IMO ex-racers are the latest fashion; people look for a cheap horse to become the next MF and who knows, it might! I think it's great more people are considering rehoming an ex-racer but due to their, usually, low price it can attract the wrong type of buyer. I paid under 1k for my current boy so I'm not saying a low price means a bad home but I think that price range can attract the more novice/first time owner.

I've only owned 3 TBs; my current one is as laid back as they come, my mare was quite nervy with strangers and very sensitive/highly strung and my previous gelding (TB but not ex-racer) was the most aggressive horse I've ever come across so you definitely can't tar them all with the same brush.

Re their worth, I do think their low price is right <prepares to get shot down>. I know they are nice horses and can have bags of potential but buying out of training means you are taking on something which generally has more wear and tear for its age than a "normal" horse that has only been taught to go fast in a straight line and sometimes over fences (sweeping generalisation I know). Getting a blank canvas is often easier than a horse who needs re-educated and I feel that should be reflected in their price.

I also think there is a point when they stop being an ex-racer and start being a hacker, RC horse, eventer etc.

Don't think I've made any valid points but it's passed some time at work!
 
In principle I have no issue at all with TB's and think there are so many types that you could find one to do many different jobs - some of the quietest sweetest horses I've known have been full TB's and you get some really nice big solid sorts aswell.
My problem is the damage that is done to them before they are even 3 years old. I think spending £1,000 on an ex racehorse would be a false economy when I could buy a homebred horse, unbroken & unspoilt off the field for £2k.
I would be reluctant to buy a Tb even then, as I always have a view towards resale and TB's are harder to sell that P/B's.
 
The comment on when they stop being an ex-racer is interesting.

When I was looking and I saw a 5-6 yr old that was an ex-racer that may have been nicely re-schooled I still expected a lower price, I guess this will stay unless / until they have been proven as a horse in another field.

I agree they should be cheaper based on the wear and tear and the re-schooling required but also agree that this can attract the wrong type of person. TB like other horses can very in temperament but most of them are very use to being worked on a regular basis and can get the better of people if given too much of a free rein or just hacked at weekends.

I also did not come across a free / very cheap ex-racer when I was looking, but I was looking to buy this autumn and I guess if you are going to get a freeby then you accept them if and when they come your way.
 
Horsemad12 said:
The comment on when they stop being an ex-racer is interesting.

When I was looking and I saw a 5-6 yr old that was an ex-racer that may have been nicely re-schooled I still expected a lower price, I guess this will stay unless / until they have been proven as a horse in another field.
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Yes, sorry, probably didn't make it very clear. Any age of ex-racer who's had basic reschooling I'd still expect a lower price; although clearly sellers don't going by some of the prices I've seen them advertised. BUT if the horse had proved itself and had a comp record (even unaff to a certain level) and/or been out to RC etc then I would expect a higher/on par with "normal" horses of same age price. It's the youngsters that have been out hacking, basic schooling and popped a wee fence that they are asking thousands for that I think are very over priced.

There have been a couple of cracking ex-racers on horsemart recently that have done RC/PC/ local shows/ xc schooling with videos and pics to prove and they've been a max of £1.9k. Obviously I don't know if there are any underlying issues but on paper they seemed good horses for very reasonable prices. Have also seen very green 4yr olds for 5k so it swings both ways!
 
I agree that it would help if people stopped referring them to as ex racehorses, you still hear people calling them that when they stopped racing years ago or in some cases were just in training and haven't actually raced at all. other horses are not referred to as ex anything and having that label certainly doesn't help. I also disagree with the wear and tear aspect, obviosly it can be the case but alot of horses that raced young and stayed sound have proved that they are tough and up to working hard without problems and I would prefer to have that than a horse bought out of a field that's done nothing and is an unknown quanity.
They have also been properly handled from youngsters and seen the world which is a head start.
They certainly are available for nothing or very cheap if you have the right contacts.....
 
"The comment on when they stop being an ex-racer is interesting.

When I was looking and I saw a 5-6 yr old that was an ex-racer that may have been nicely re-schooled I still expected a lower price, I guess this will stay unless / until they have been proven as a horse in another field."

I always find this interesting - we very occasionally buy from the Ascot Sales, we've had a couple that have raced but been too slow but also have bought some that have been in training BUT have never made it onto the track - so where do these stand?

We've got two TB's at home at the moment, both will, hopefully all things going well race this winter, one P2P the other in bumpers. Both of them could easily do other jobs. Tara who is going P2P would event, she's bold and brave, lovely paces and can jump like a showjumper. Loll (who I now have brakes on thanks to those that suggested a Dexter - if you're reading this thanks!) would make a lovely dressage or hack class horse.
If either (or neither) of these horses turns out to be good enough to train on then we'll be reeducating them to their alternative careers (secretly I'd rather like to steal Loll away now :D).

Anywho with regard to horses being left at sales ... well I have heard of this happening, the auctioneers rang up a P2P trainer and he came and took a lorry load away - will be interesting to see if any of them make it on to the track this season.
 
I think supply does definatly outweigh demad BUT ex racers are begining to become 'fashionable', which providing they end up in the right hands can only be a good thing. There are now so many classes and even clinics just for ex racers for people to aim for.

I personally I think for eventing if you can find a good one they are unbeatable. If you can get them 'on side' they will go above and beyond. They are loyal, brave, athletic and very intelligent. Unfortunatly the same traits that make them so good are also the ones that can cause problems. They are real fighters and if you start one you can be sure as hell they'll end it.

You've only got to look at here in the forum to see how versatile they are; we've got ex racers doing dressage, eventing, show jumping, hunting, team chasing, hacking and just being someone's best friend.

Yes they are thinner skinned than you typical cob but I know many that live out all year round without rugs and only get a small feed. Just like other breeds there are good doers and bad doers. I think a lot of the ridden problems stem from the way they are trained and kept when they were racers. They have a strict routine which they settle in to and often ridden with very little contact until they are going up the gallops.

I got my first ex racer after a friend who seems to collect them persuaded me to give them a go. He is an absolute sweetheart and a real trier. Sometimes he doesn't understand what i'm asking him to do but after a couple tries it clicks and then it's like he's been doing it his whole life. He lives out all year round, keeps weight well and doesn't require massive of feeds/rugs! I can honestly say i'm a convert and am looking forward to taking him to his first comp early next year :)
 
Just to add on buying an ex-racer.

I did try to buy one that had been re-schooled by the trainers girlfriend. Agreed the sale subject to vetting, arranged the vetting etc. The day before the vetting got a text to say that they had sold him for £300 more than we had agreed with no vetting and he had left the yard.

Left a very sour taste in my mouth!
 
Just to say, they are being left at sales, but not just tbs - all types of horses are being tied up and left at sales here in Ireland if they do not sell. Last year, at an event, someone came back from xc to find another horse left in her lorry...!

As for tbs, I love a good one :)

Its just at the moment there is no customers for the supply; so in effect they start to "gather" them!

We have been given 2 tbs in the past month - both are ex-racers, one is an absolute sweetie and tiny (about 15.1 if that!) and happily lives out 24/7 with a hairy. He will be re-trained to play polox. Fantastically bred as well.
The other has come to us, I dont know that much about her, but she has been out of training for a year and I think is going to be made into a riding club horse, eventually.

Last year, our vet "saved" a tb mare, who had had an accident in training. Will always be lame, sound in walk, but fantastically bred and is now in foal to a connie.
Also have an ex-racer who was polo pony, now retired ex polo pony, couldnt have a nicer person!

Tbs are intelligent - which is where people start to not like them as they can't handle them, as we find the horse ends up out-smarting the owner :rolleyes:
Tbs were not bred to hack - therefore if someone buys one for just hacking, they are going to be disapointed if it dosent work out (and I know there are some fantastic ones - our ex-polo pony is amazing on the roads) due to them misbehaving.

They are greyhounds of horses - yet you wouldnt buy a greyhound as a house dog!
 
I also think the 'when does an ex-racer cease to be an ex-racer' comment is interesting.
My TB raced just once as a 3 yr old, he was brought up and trained in a racing environment. However he was with his old owner hacking and light schooling for 6 months then with me he has spent a year hacking, schooling, jumping, RC, BD. Really he should be classed as a RC competition horse who just happened to have raced once...
I also agree that the good ex-racers may not find themselves at the sales. Mine would never have ended up at the sales, he was very well regarded by his owner/trainer and when health issues forced the trainer to give up he gave my horse to someone who he knew would treat the horse well. I was given him on loan first because they wanted to make sure I would also give the horse a good home.
A good horse is a good horse no matter what the breed and I do believe that some trainers care enough and have people available who will take the good ones. Unfortunatly there are also owners and trainers who dont care :(
I do believe that the high wastage is not just limited to TB's, although the high production of them does naturally make them high up the list. It's a reflection of the economy.
I love my TB, he's just as easy if not easier then non-tb horses that I've had in the past :D
 
Interestingly enough on the theme that ex racers should command a lower price due to wear and tear, we sold a 15hh 6yo ex trotter last spring, locally advertised, had done lots of hacking out, and a little schooling in the school but was very green but sold easily for 1.8k!

We had a lot of phone calls. I personally think people also under value their ex racers, if they have sucessfully done rc/pc fun rides etc and are not too aged then imo they should certainly be worth more than 1.9k.

There is an argument that the work they do at a young age if not excessive can strengthen their joints not sure how accurate that argument is though.
 
Tbh i see no difference between a tb and any other horse. Some tbs are better movers than some warmbloods!! Iv said i wouldnt get another tb because there to accident prone but tbh if i liked it i would get it. They make great horses in the right hands!!
 
Well, out of my bedroom window, I can see two TB yearlings bred for racing, both beautiful chestnut colts. One of them can really really move, he is athletic with a super walk and has a feisty attitude. He'd the better bet for a good racehorse and also the one I'd pick if I were buying one of the two for myself. The other is nice enough looking but not as flash a mover, not as eyecatching in himself - if he's no great shakes as a racehorse, he could be sold on but he wouldn't be the one I'd pick. What can you do?!! You breed for a living to try and breed that elusive black type TB and you get average foals and the occasional superstar. What do you do with those that just aren't good enough?

A pro friend of mine had a home-bred TB given to her by a really top Newmarket trainer. They phoned her up and said the horse is going to be shot this afternoon as we don't want him getting into the wrong hands. This was their way of showing how much they cared about the horse - something that sometimes people forget that death is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse. The horse was sound and beautiful, a real looker and went on to Novice event. He wasn't a lame poor conformed wreck. Yet they felt that it would be kinder for him to be shot than to get sold on to an uncertain future.

The things that worry me are people who buy TBs because they're cheap without being able to afford to keep them and people who buy them without being prepared for their quirks.
 
only_me said:
They are greyhounds of horses - yet you wouldnt buy a greyhound as a house dog!
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I am absolutely PMSL at that comment :D As the owner of three greyhounds (and another couple before them) I would assure you that greyhounds are THE perfect house dog - they are true sprinters, have 10 minutes of mad activity then sleep for the rest of the day :)

I also own a TB - a failed P2P horse by Lord Americo - and he is the best horse I have ever owned :) He is incredibly easy to do, a joy to be around, and can take on most equine activities (must be admitted that cubbing blew his brain :D)

I can confidently say that you simply cannot generalise about any breed, whether equine or canine :)

ETA - in response to the OP however, I would say my answer would be to humanely PTS the "wastage" whether that be TBs or greyhounds - I know this is not a popular response, but it is far better for the animal concerned than an uncertain future :(
 
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wench said:
I would disagree with that - greyhounds are about the most idle dog you can get!
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The only reason you wouldn't get an ex-racing greyhound as a pet is if you ever wanted to use your sofa again. ;) :D

But to expand that metaphor, you wouldn't take just any greyhound - good charities/trainers assess the dogs thoroughly for their new job and practice full disclosure. You also wouldn't get one if you wanted to do agility or fly ball, or dock diving, or obedience, or or search and rescue, or back country hiking or . . . in many cases, if you wanted a dog you could safely let off the lead in many circumstances. (Caveat: I know many ex-racers that are fine off the lead BUT many are not and even the nicest can't always be trusted around cats and other small, furry animals.)

The are purpose bred and their purpose is not, at base, "pet".

Also, many come with "holdover" issues from their racing days, some of which, like a tendency to bad teeth, may have long term implications, which people hopefully understand and accept.

So as long as you know what you're getting and are willing to be reasonable, they are lovely dogs. (I'd have one.) BUT if you get one and then are unhappy it's not a Labrador, that's a bit more of a problem.

Going back to horses, BRED to race is not at all the same thing as RACED. If you go to buy a well bred racehorse as a weanling, before it's entered the program, you will certainly not be paying "riding horse money" and, if you do want to sped that sort of change, you could get a top of the line foal bred for sport which probably would have a much higher chance of being what you want.

Which is not to say there aren't lines of racehorses that often produce horses suitable - even capable of winning at the top level - for other disciplines. But it's backward reasoning to assume because SOME horses that race go on to excel at sport ALL racehorses will excel - or even be suitable - for another job.

After all, just because I'm human and Victoria Pendleton is human, that doesn't tell you anything about MY ability to ride a bike really fast. ;)

It does also mean, though, that developing a sport horse, more and more as the years go by, means doing everything right. Racing is not a "sport purpose" start. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just that an identical horse started with the end goal in mind will have an advantage. Also, racing, at least on the flat, has changed enormously (more so in North America than here but it's changing here, too) in the past couple of decades, as has sport. Horses have to be more and more specialised to succeed in either sphere which means more are not as suitable for both. Add that to the enormous advances in our ability to "keep horses on the road" in ways even the cleverest vet would never be able to detect, and I strongly suspect more horses get more "done" to them before people give up, with potential implications for the long term.

Don't get me wrong, I love many, many TBs and certainly consider them a viable place to look for a competition horse. But, let's face it, people buy them because they're cheap. It's a gamble. Presumably people understand that. Obviously the risks can be lessened by being VERY particular to get a horse with EXACTLY the conformation and temperament for the new job at hand but that's not buying an "ex-racer" that's buying a horse suited to the job. I do think there is a risk, though, that people will buy an ex-racer BECAUSE it's cheap, even if it's not suitable. Not to mention that BUYING a horse is the cheap bit . . .

I don't think a horse that's gone on to do a new job reasonably is an "ex-racer" it's a horse doing a job. It might be valid to mention past experience but if the horse has proven itself, vets etc then it's "just" a horse.

On the subject of "wastage" - do people not think there's culling in sport breeding? It's a pretty accepted fact that one of the reasons the UK and North America have lagged behind many of the "big" studbooks is because it's much harder to "sell" the idea of culling as a basic responsibility of good breeders. Which isn't to say there aren't crap warmbloods but certainly the general attitude is different.
 
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I like everything about TBs apart from their feet. If you can get one with good feet, that hasn't been hammered while in training, they are super horses.
Huge generalisation time, but ime they are not as spooky as WBs. They sail over ditches without a glance, ditches that most WBs would have a heart attack at the first few times. Their naturally high cruising speed makes them great xc horses, because you don't have to hustle them to get the time.
BUT there are thousands too many bred every year, and unfortunately there is always going to be some rubbish. I know of one expensive NH sire who is well known for throwing wonky-legged foals, but still at stud. The offspring are all v unlikely to be any good as a racehorse or comp horse, and equally unlikely to have a dobbin-ish brain to just switch to being a safe happyhacker just like that.
As said up there, culling is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse...
 
one continental stud farm whose business plan i had access to actually had a section for income arising from horses sold for slaughter if they were not fast enough at 2 years, trotters they were.
 
if you are talking about tbs in general not just ex racers, i would only have tbs, i think they are the best moving, best constructed, most capable of performing of ANY breed, the only reason, with rare exceptions, that the continental horses win what they do is because they carry tbs bloodlines, its very sad that the tb does'nt get much credit for its input
i would like to see more tb horses bred specifically for dressage and other competitions and some support for this from the british gouvernment as in other countries, for me the tb is truly the king of horses.

.
 
supply def outweighs demand......last time i was horse hunting i had offer after offer of free or cheap TB's. ok many of them with a quirk or a vice, but nothing actually dangerous.since then iv had 4 more offered to me,

its sad that their reputation preceeds them, most are not loopy self harming nutters with poor feet, but ask around any yard and more people than not will say exactly that.

iv had 2 now with super duper feet, that competed barefoot, hacked barefoot etc and both have the pain threhsold of an elephant and even if they suffer a *surface wound* are still raring to get stuck in to the job.

i dount i will ever have anything else now, i love their heart :)
 
On the "poor feet" thing, I've had lots that were able to go barefoot, at least until they had to compete on very abrasive ground. My event horse always had his shoes off after the last event and showed all winter and started his fitness work barefoot. Interestingly, I've worked for breeders who breed only for sport and don't send horses into training and they've generally had above average quality feet. I now see quite a few horses doing rehab who have their shoes pulled and as soon as they sort themselves out they're fine to work without. I wouldn't say it's "breed related" any more than in any other breed, in that some lines are generally better than others.
 
only_me said:
They are greyhounds of horses - yet you wouldn't buy a greyhound as a house dog!
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I wonder if as many people have this misconception about the Thoroughbreds as they do the Greyhounds???

Greyhounds make the most ideal pets/house dogs and are renowned for being lazy and needing only a short walk/run daily. All the Ex racing one's I've known are simply wonderful pets and I can't wait to get one :)

As for the Thoroughbreds they to are beautiful and definitely misunderstood, especially the ones that have raced. We currently have three TB's at the moment. One seven year old who finished racing in April and has already been out and come 3rd in his first ever dressage competition and a lovely four year old that had his last race just over a month ago and he couldn't be more laid back. He's very pretty and is sure to have an excellent career ahead of him
The three year old, although he hasn't raced is so safe my 13yr old daughter is riding him and bringing him on, before turning him away just before Christmas.
They all have good feet, especially now the ex racers have our farrier :D

TB's sometimes tend to have very flat feet with low heels but they aren't all like that. People are definitely giving them away (we have a 'free' one at our yard belonging to a friend of mine) He's a flighty fellow and won't be ridden by a novice but he'll settle down and do a decent job in some discipline.

My sister had a lesson with our dressage trainer a couple of weeks back and he said ' I don't he will make a dressage horse but he'll be good at eventing'

If I'd heard him I would have asked ''why wouldn't he make a dressage horse and although our trainer hadn't seen him jump, why was he so sure he would be good at eventing''?? I knew the answers really though, it's because he's a TB and my trainer likes WB's but you certainly can't categorise TB's to eventing only, that's a blinkered way to look at life in my opinion :D
 
i know a little tb mare now 27 who is a retired grand prix showjumper she's called twilley des bosses and has bred some very good foals, the tb mago influencial in the danish stud book, i believe, was a grand prix dressage horse, i read somewhere ages ago that the biggest money winning show jumping pony coltham maelstrom was a tb, i was at a comp one day and a little chestnut did very well in the dressage, the day before he won a one day event, talking to the owner who told me he raced as a 2 yr old and was now 22yrs old, he was a super little horse.
i ride different types but when i get back on my tb mare, and yes she's chestnut, i think yes this is the real thing! makes everything else feel like a renault 5
 
My mum and her ex-racer had a dr lesson with a local dressage lady, a nice lady. At first she said to my mum that she wasn't a 'tb' person, being a 'dressage' person she favoured warmbloods. However she did say she had an ex-racer on her yard but Novice was his limit.

At the end of the session she was bowled over by mums horse, she commented on how he had no limit to his ability, that he had everything and could collect as well as extend. She also commented that he had more medium trot then her wb :).

There are less than desirable downhill, daisy cutter TB's but there are just loads of seriously nice ones as well. I think it's also easy to forget that a lot of wb's carry a high percentage of tb blood :)

I'm glad TB's are starting to get the positive publicity they deserve and that they are starting to become much more desirable. No one can deny the effect warmbloods have had on our sport, especially top levels.. they are purpose bred after all. However TB's have had such a big influence in breeding wb's and are strong enough in their own right to more than hold their own at the levels of sport that is within most peoples grasp. They are also affordable! A well conformed, talented TB with a good attitude for an amature can be easily picked up within most peoples budgets.. The equivalent warmblood would be out of a lot of people budgets. Dealers pick up continental 'failures' abroad, ship them here to England and flog them to our amature Market, quite often they are poorly conformed and have attitudes more suited to professionals. People would be better off spending that money on a top class TB as apposed to a very mediocre wb.

:)
 
It was meant as a metaphor, not literally!!

If you have a greyhound, and do not give it enough exercise, you will end up with a bored dog who has pent up energy.
Same can be said for a border terrier!

If you have a TB and dont give them enough exercise, whether it is through turn out or riding, it will also have pent up energy :)

I love greyhounds, I want one, but I dont have the room for one at the moment ;)
 
kit279 said:
The things that worry me are people who buy TBs because they're cheap without being able to afford to keep them and people who buy them without being prepared for their quirks.
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That's the biggie; because sooner or later these poor horses are either left to rot somewhere, because the owner won't admit they have bitten off more than they can chew and so their fragile ego's won't allow them to do the right thing and sell the horse on. Or once ruined by the overhorsed idiot rider, they pass back into the market place, vastly reduced in price due to the multitude of additional quirks and problems put there by the idiot owner.

I recently saw a genuine advert for an ex-racer that was well on it's way to being retrained, £350! And earlier this year I was offered a good riding TB (not ex-racer) for £150. That is WAY too cheap, and far too much of a temptation for some people who shouldn't own a goldfish, let alone a horse!
 
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