Those of you who bute to ride

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poiuytrewq

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About 3/4 months ago I posted about my horse who has arthritis and I'd been recommended by the vet to give a sachet of bute daily after exhausting all other avenues. I was reluctant to do it at first because I felt "wrong" riding a horse on bute.
My vet and many lovely people on here turned that way of thinking around and yes he's on a sachet of Danilon (safer long term and easier to administer) daily.
The ability to keep him ridden, by ridden Im talking light hacking, mainly in walk is keeping him active, moving and interested in life.

I was surprised how many of you bute on a regular basis and have a couple more questions!
1- Do you find that there is an optimum time to feed before riding at all? I would usually feed in the evening after I'd ridden however he doesn't feel his best if it do this- Coincidence or should I better time things? Vet suggested twice a day (one sachet split) but for an over weight horse its not ideal, also I have to get him in to feed so difficult in the morning. (until winter)
2- If the horse in question still didn't feel 100% sound would you up it to 2 sachets?
He generally looks sound in the field and races round with the others so isn't in bad pain.
3- Do you feed anything alongside to help with liver function? ie- Milk thistle or similar
4- Is bute better at pain killing than Danilon?
I am waiting for my regular vet to finish his leave and will of course discuss this with him but am interested to have any advice and tips from others who are using long term painkillers please?
 
I own one who is out on loan as a light hack and is on 1 danilon a day.

Bute v danilon I don't think there is much difference in terms of effectiveness.

When to feed - ideally id say in the morning if you ride in evening (or split) but I don't think it's THAT important.

No supportive liver supplements fed.

In terms of dosage I think it needs to be on a specific case basis - depends on the horses body size and degree of lameness. What I would say is that I would only use 2 judiciously, I wouldn't want to routinely use 2 a day on an average sized horse - but if you go on an extra jolly ride and they come up a bit stiffer, then maybe save it for that scenario for a couple of days while resting.
 
Personally I'm not 100% comfortable riding a horse who needs bute to keep them sound enough to be ridden, BUT I do see some logic for horses who will stiffen up more out of work than in.

Given I'm not very comfortable riding a horse on any bute, I'm afraid I'd be looking at retirement for a horse who routinely needed 2 bute a day to stay sound. I'm basing this on my own two who are both retired because they would have needed bute to stay sound in work. They are both happily retired and aren't fussed they don't work, and happily don't need the work to help them stay 'ok' when it comes to stiffness etc.

I feed a probiotic as routine and increase it if either of my horses have to get bute.

I spoke to my vet about the difference between bute and Danilon, he said there wasn't any, once the break down they both do exactly the same job. He also said in his whole career he's never seen a case of a bute compromised liver.
 
I personally think it is wrong - how do you know enough has been given and the horse isn't still in pain and just putting up with it because that's what they do? I have no problems with buting a horse to keep it field safe (up to a point) but to ride, that doesn't sit well with me.
 
ihatework said:
Fides - what about a horse that likes being ridden and whereby staying exercised is of benefit over retirement?
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Likes being ridden? I'm sure a horse cares not whether they are being ridden or put in a field. Light work for early arthritis - turnout is usually enough, even if only during the day.
 
Yes, he enjoys being ridden, it is evident by his behaviour. If he is feeling under the weather then that us quite obvious too and he isn't ridden.

He doesn't have arthritis. He has a weird drug resistant cushings / metabolic thing going on which makes him prone to lami (so essential on weight management). Furthermore he has a sacroiliac injury, these are best maintained by being kept mobile.

Alternatively I could retire him to the field, let him get lami and then shoot him?
 
No issues for me using bute. Many a golden oldie has kept going happily and healthily with no after effects. However, we hunt so not quite as fluffy as some I admit. (stands back awaiting fall out!!)
 
ihatework said:
Fides - what about a horse that likes being ridden and whereby staying exercised is of benefit over retirement?
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I think its still wrong. Totally understand if its athritis or something that would benefit from being worked, but generally I wouldn't do it. One of mine is retired after he damaged his DDFT seriously, I have to ride him every few days because he genuinely looks depressed if I dont, it just entails some schooling in walk and a little trot. I'd never bute him because I want him to tell me if he's having a stiff day, for example if the grounds been hard for a few days then he does feel it a little - he's still sound but just feels a bit stiff so if I think he is, I just won't ride him. If I buted him, I could do him so much damage and I hate to think what he could do in the field if he felt a little sore one day but bute sorted that, he'd probably tear about the field like a lunatic risking damaging it again which would then be the end of him! Really depends on the reason for bueting I think at the end of the day.
 
ihatework said:
Yes, he enjoys being ridden, it is evident by his behaviour. If he is feeling under the weather then that us quite obvious too and he isn't ridden.

He doesn't have arthritis. He has a weird drug resistant cushings / metabolic thing going on which makes him prone to lami (so essential on weight management). Furthermore he has a sacroiliac injury, these are best maintained by being kept mobile.

Alternatively I could retire him to the field, let him get lami and then shoot him?
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I have never yet seen a horse with a SI injury that is sound enough to be ridden, even with Bute - they can give the most intense sorts of pain. There are ways of managing lami without requiring them to get shot.

I'm actually also of the belief that a lot of horses with Cushings would be better PTS. In over 95% of cases it is due to a pituitary tumour. They may be classed a benign as they do not spread to other areas of the body, but they do grow and horses experience neurological issues because of it. I'm a believer in a day to early being better than a day too late :(
 
Well you obviously haven't met my horse fides. What a narrow opinion. We shall have to agree to disagree.

And I'm very much a quality over quantity of life person. This horse is 8, I think he deserves a bit more quality time on this planet.
 
I've had a horse ridden lightly on one Danillon a day. And yes he was much happier having a mooch around the countryside, rather than stuck in a field (as he had been the previous 18 months before comming to me).
 
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Looking at threads on here were horses buck, rear and do all manner of things and there riders are advised to look for yet undiagnosed sources of pain I find it a bit daft that when a horse is given a relatively small amount of analgesia, is sound and is worked people throw up their hands in horror. Many horses that are worked on bute have low grade unsoundness diagnosed by a vet and it giving them enables them to continue having a longer working life, which is what most horses are purchased for. I am sure if they in serious pain they would soon say no.
 
sarahann1 said:
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I spoke to my vet about the difference between bute and Danilon, he said there wasn't any, once the break down they both do exactly the same job. He also said in his whole career he's never seen a case of a bute compromised liver.
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How many did he post mortem? There is a thread on the same topic somewhere in the archives from a vet saying that in all the post mortems she had done on horses with even small doses of Bute over more than a short time, there was not one which had no liver damage.
 
My horse has early stages of athritis and ringbone ... Shes been prescribed bute as and when needed ... For hacking she needs none if we are going to be on a ride that requires jumping ( small styles) she gets bute, if it requires 1 sachet a day so be it ... If it requires 1 sachet a day to be field sound then it will be time to rethink quality of life !
 
Well I'm glad my horse with cushings isn't being put down! The pracsend has totally rejuvenated him, he had a whale of a time out hunting this weekend!

OP I think it's fine to give a bute a day to keep in light work, My old man gets stiff so if I know we're doing something big I give him danilon for a couple of days leading up to it, he had a sachet for 3 days before hunting this weekend and then for the day after. I see no problem with it.
 
If a vet that you know (or believe) to be competent says ride a horse on bute and said horse is happy and contented then why on earth not? Our Harry (arthritis) was on 1 bute a day from age 9 to 12 when we retired him. I know what he is like if he is in pain and he never showed any signs of that. Vet checked him every 6 months and was very happy with him.
Oh, and we fed him in the morning so he had the benefit of the danilon before work. seemed more logical.
 
I take pain relief for my old stiff bones to function every morning and my horses have been, are and will be given whatever is required to give quality of life as appropriate.

Some folks have very strange views on the use of pain relief.
 
Fides said:
I'm actually also of the belief that a lot of horses with Cushings would be better PTS. In over 95% of cases it is due to a pituitary tumour. They may be classed a benign as they do not spread to other areas of the body, but they do grow and horses experience neurological issues because of it. I'm a believer in a day to early being better than a day too late :(
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Fides, you do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Cushings' horses, and seem to pop up quite often on threads spreading doom and gloom about their prognosis. Can you point us in the direction of the scientific literature that indicates such poor outcomes, particularly re your assertion that many will develop neurological symptoms?

Back to the main thrust of the thread. Yes I would medicate, with vet's approval, a stiff arthritic horse in order for it to enjoy a few more years of suitable work. Quite different to buteing up a horse with undiagnosed possible soft tissue injuries and knackering it.
 
My vet said that bute fed long term is no more likely to result in the death of a horse than the actual death of the horse through old age or any other injury/illness that might come along.

Therefore the risk of bute killing or harming your horse on a maintenance dose is neglible and something else will cause its death first if that makes sense.

You might like to consider Tumeric, there is a lot about this at the moment and better fed with olive oil and black pepper as it acts in combination with the curcumin in the tumeric I believe for better effect.

Buteless is also good and I can recommend as my horse is now on this and off the 1/2 sachet of bute a day that he was on, this was due to other reasons I won't go into on this forum and not to do with me being worried about the damage bute could do as I knew it couldn't.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I take pain relief for my old stiff bones to function every morning and my horses have been, are and will be given whatever is required to give quality of life as appropriate.

Some folks have very strange views on the use of pain relief.
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Agree totally with the above. If it were me and I had the option of taking medication which enabled me to go about my daily life or taking nothing and sitting around watching TV all day I know which is choose!
We have 2 with arthritis. One is happily retired the other is on bute and continues to be ridden because he loves his job and after a year of retirement was thoroughly miserable.
Some horses much prefer to be in work than out of it, not many but they definitely do exist!
 
I lost my OAP at 32 to progressive Cushings, ( i made the decision that better a week too soon), but prascend did help her.

But back to the point in question she was stiff, so had low level bute (every other day) for a few years, and as her arthritis progressed, be eventually went to 1 sachet a day, and occasionally 2, and whilst she may have had some liver damage (she had no visible signs), she was comfortable, and mobile, and that to me is what is important, as long as she was happy, and could lie down and get up, then that was what mattered.

I never buted for my enjoyment, or to ride her beyond a level which she wasn't capable of, it was to keep her ticking over with low level exercise and maintain quality of life.
 
Yes I bute my lad to help him be exercised easier. When I stop exercising him regularly like now and throughout winter, he gets stiffer in his movement.
I too struggled with the whole thing of giving him bute to ride, but as he is so much better being ridden I feel it is better to do it. He goes much better for a bute the night before he is exercised, we only ever walk and I let him go at his pace. If he is having a bad day I can tell within 5 minutes and will turn around and take him home.
If I do not exercise him he is at extreme risk of laminitis too.
I actually do reasonable distance cycling too and have to cycle on painkillers a fair bit due to arthritic feet...it gets me through more easily and means I can keep doing what I enjoy to be active and fit.
To me there is no difference...only my opinion and it is based on knowing my horse extremely well and knowing exactly how he 'feels' and acting accordingly.
 
Thank you all.
If I don't do anything with him he will literally stand and wind suck all day becoming distressed when his friend gets ridden. Because he stands rock still to wind suck his hocks stiffen up. In work he comes to call, is far more active in the field and spends much of the time grazing. My farrier can feel how much I've ridden him by how comfortable he is to hold his feet up etc.
I was part of the retire not work on bute side like I say, until this horse. He's chirpy when in work.
 
My vet has said that a horse with arthritis is better to be ridden every day for 20 - 30 mins than once a week for an hour. He has also said that horses that have always led busy ridden lives or competed reguarly and are then retired often go down hill very quickly as the ligaments and joints that have always been kept working and tight slacken and then problem creep in and often a horse will have to be euthanised within 12 months.
 
Can I ask why you all chose bute and not something devils claw? This is not meant to be picking at anyone, just interested to know if an alternative would be felt to be as good.

And I think you have to "meet" one of these horses who wants to keep going before you can make a judgement. I do know one, he is not 100% sound (after extensive, lengthy and inconclusive vet treatment). He has no problems in letting his owner and YO know how he is feeling whatsover!
 
yes I would and I have- 1 or 2 bute a day for a horse is not much and it it gives a horse a comfortable, longer, useful working life then so be it.

Luci07- for me afaik DC has the same mechanism of action as bute but isn't clinically tested and neither does what you buy give you a consistent 'dose'. If my horse needs pain relief, I want to know he's getting it.

Light work to keep a horse mentally stimulated (and yes, some horses like this-even ones kept out in varied terrain and in a herd as my last horse was) and weight off is completely fine in my book.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
yes I would and I have- 1 or 2 bute a day for a horse is not much and it it gives a horse a comfortable, longer, useful working life then so be it.

Luci07- for me afaik DC has the same mechanism of action as bute but isn't clinically tested and neither does what you buy give you a consistent 'dose'. If my horse needs pain relief, I want to know he's getting it.

Light work to keep a horse mentally stimulated (and yes, some horses like this-even ones kept out in varied terrain and in a herd as my last horse was) and weight off is completely fine in my book.
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Thank you. Never needed to use bute long term so didn't know..
 
I feed mine his Danilon in his dinner, usually after riding but I sometimes ride in the morning. I don't believe it makes a blind bit of difference to him.
I would be wary of giving him more than one, and generally I am able to tell if he's not feeling too good before it becomes a major issue so he has some time off (in the field, as he lives out) then I bring him back slowly.
He is such a joy to ride and to be around - he has a real zest for life and loves a squeal and a race with his friend every now and then. He gets narked and moody when he's not been out enough, I can tell this by how he is in the field. I've not had him long but I've established what is normal behaviour for him and I'm experienced enough to be able to monitor this and tell when he's just not quite right.
I have plantar fasciitis in both feet and this can be quite painful sometimes... I'm not about to give up walking though and will happily take some painkillers to allow me to enjoy my life. Again, I am conscious of limiting how much I do and making sure I'm aware if it gets even slightly worse that I stop and put my feet up.
When my horse stops charging round and squealing, I'll know something is up. I'm doing the best I can for him and treating him as an individual :)
 
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