Those on full livery...

Horses on our yard yell at the first person who appears for food. I know as in the summer I will often beat the staff up as I want to ride very early before work. The majority of the liveries are up nearly every day regardless so we build up relationships regardless. There is only one horse in the yard who only sees his mum at weekends but he is Definately her horse! She is the one who does all the exciting stuff and has treats and downtime with him! Maybe liveries who only turn up occasionally might struggle but most liveries I know spend a lot of time with their horse. And don't forget, DIY takes time put away from the horse as well. It certainly did for me whe I had to go to buy bedding,feed and hay...
 
Quirky, I think you are mis understanding whatbivam trying to say. I can understand some people need/want to have horses on full and part and am grateful they do or I wouldn't of had a job, that is not what this thread is about tho. I am putting my ideas across about the bonding with owner vs yard staff and tbh does it really matter? If you are enjoying your time with your horse and if horse is happy it shouldn't matter two jots who horse thinks of as 'mum'

My point is that on the yards I have seen horses on part/full tend to associate yard staff with food/field/grass/bedtime general care and this can make the horse seem like they think of staff as 'mum' obviously if we are only tlking about who mucks out and ties haynets it's a bit different. I am talking about the day to day care as in feeding bringing in and out etc not just who mucks out.
 
See I don't agree that a horse who sees owner at weekend only would think of owner as mum. Much the same as a riding school horse that has a rider who grooms and tacks up then rides, then un tacks turns out at weekends would think of that person as their owner. That might just be that I have never seen it myself so don't have experience of it.
TBH unless you are spending a good amount of time and being the primary care giver to horse I don't see how the horse will differentiate between yard staff and 'mum'.

That is in no way me saying horses shouldn't be on part or full livery!
 
My horses are definitely sure who 'mum' is and I don't ever feed them treats! :)

And my youngster is currently out on grass livery having a break and I see him once a week- he still gallops across the field like Black Beauty when he spots me :)

At our yard most of the horses very clearly show they know who 'mum' is- even the people who only come up once a week (I tend to see mine 5-6 days a week anyway).
 
I absolutely agree with those who say that mucking out, scrubbing water buckets, filling haynets doesn't do much for the relationship you have with your horse from the horse's point of view . . . but it does give me a really good picture of how he is doing . . . and helps me know him better (if that makes sense). I have a great, first-hand idea of how settled he is (or isn't) by the state of his bed in the morning . . . I know how much he is (or isn't) drinking and/or eating and can manage him accordingly.

I do, however, think that the other stuff - changing rugs, grooming, feeding, turning out/bringing in - day-to-day handling DOES help reinforce a relationship. I think one of the reasons Kal became quite grumpy when on full livery was because he didn't have just one person taking care of him . . . just one of a selection of yard staff . . . so his handling lacked consistency and he didn't get to form a relationship with HIS person.

Kal had always greeted me when I arrived at the yard before I put him on full . . . when on full he stopped . . . and now that he's back on DIY he's back to giving me a lovely hello when he hears my footsteps (he can't see me coming). To my knowledge, he didn't greet any of the yard staff either - only the standard FOOD call at breakfast/lunch/dinner time. I don't give Kal his breakfast (first up feeds) so he isn't greeting me b/c I bring food . . .

I can only speak for myself, but I felt like Kal wasn't "my" horse when he was full livery - that may be daft, but it's how I felt.

P
 
I have my three on full livery, mostly because I have an auto immune illness which can leave me totally wiped out without warning and I have a young child and if he is ever sick I don't have to stress about him being dragged down the stables. My nearest relative is 300 miles away :(So I am paying for peace of mind more than anything, if I am having a good day I am there early I turnout them out, I don't always skip the stables out, YO tells me off ! But I don't mind doing it. But I groom them, ride two of them, I change their rugs, bring them in and feed them. I don't need to do any of this as it's what I am paying for, however If I am having a flare up then not having the worry that they aren't being looked after is priceless to me. They know I am mum, even if I have been on holiday for a few weeks, they see me and will come over whinnying. I don't doubt they have a bond with YO, there are only my three and her three there at the moment. But the main thing is I am happy and my horses are happy so everyone is a winner !
 
To be honest even the working liveries on our yard know who their mum is, and they are ridden groomed etc by other people. It is because "mum" is the person who spends extra time cuddling, fussing, grooming, bathing etc and the person who takes them out and does fun things with them.

It doesn't mean that they don't recognise and like the yard staff but they definitely know who their mum is, and start to get a bit fed up if their mum doesn't visit as much as usual.
 
Mine's on part livery and I would say he has a bond with both my yard owner and I - one doesn't happen at the expense of the other, and I would say I actually spend more time with him riding/grooming/competing etc, than my yard owner would do on his everyday care (which is exemplary). I see him most days anyway, but I have livery because I have an injured back and for peace of mind, so I know he's sorted if I have to work late/away etc.

Either that, or I don't have a horse.
 
My new boy will be on full (well, what we call full, they don't exercise as standard) as that is the only way I can keep a horse. I live and work in London, and wouldn't have time to get to the yard twice a day and can work long and unpredictable hours.

I will be going up five/six days a week to give him an extra special groom (with the best will in the world I don't think the livery staff will ever give him the same time and attention I will), give him lots of fuss and ride. They will only exercise when I'm away, although I might initially get them to school him once a week as I'm quite rusty and I don't want him to forget his dressage training before I'm ready to do it.

For me it will be worth every penny, he will have a good routine and be well cared for and I won't be worrying about him when I can't be there. I know from his previous owner that he needs a routine or he will stress himself out, so this is the best for everyone :)
 
I would love to be able to have my horse on Full Livery, I have been a part livery in the past and loved the freedom it gave me to do the stuff I wanted with my horse rather than rushing about in the dark at night to get stuff done. Plus having to face the facts that I can only ride at the weekends all winter so therefore no be able to compete as his fitness would not be anywhere near high enough.
My current horse came from an environment where he has always been on full livery and he found it a bit unsettling moving to a DIY yard. His old groom adored him and yes while he might have been more friendly with her, that was because his old owners were more of the having a decent horse as a status symbol type so they wouldn't have cared about that.
You have to be careful about over humanising horses, I believe it is hard for them to bond in the true sense of the word to a human. However they do develop trust and awareness of those who work closely with them.
 
I have always had my horse on full livery as I can't manage school and riding, my parents live in separate houses and i attend school in london while my horse is in west sussex (where we have a house). In trying to manage all these factors and keep up with my school work (4 a-levels) i dont have much choice. I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping my boy anywhere on full livery but my yard is on my road in sussex and I know the ym and everyone there very well, I see him every week (fri sat and sun) and am happy with his condition and fitness (if i wasn't i would move immediately). I go up whenever i want and am never unhappy with the state he is in, although i would like to spend more time with him i would rather have him than not and because of school holidays i feel that I get an economical amount of time out of it so i see it as a real positive.
 
My lad is kept on full livery including excercise 5 days a week as he is in the UK and I am based in Holland at the moment (looking to move back but at the whim of OH's job!)

He is happy, very well cared for, ridden to a high standard 5 days a week which includes hacking and schooling ( I have really noticed a differance and marked improvement in his ridden work) and I go and visit for 4 or 5 days every 6 - 8 weeks where I get to spend whole days of lovely quality time with him.

To be honest I have not noticed any change in our bond, I still get the whickers and head hugs when I turn up for a visit but I also know he is quite happy when I am not there and not pining away in any way shape or form.

I think it is really important to find a yard and staff that you trust and who have the same idea of how your horse should be treated (or at least respect your wishes as an owner) I am delighted with my yard and when we move back to the UK he will remain there but I will drop the riding element down to a couple of daya a week schooling just to keep him up to speed so I can indulge my love of long hacks.
 
Thanks so much for all the replies, really helpful! Good to see that there are a lot of people that are in the same position that I would be, and that it does work out!!
I guess it's the same as me having a bond with my loan horse - he certainly knows who mum "1" is as she's been mum for the past 14 years, but I do have a bond with him also!

I'd also think it was a bonus that your horse has some kind of bond with the yard staff, as it would mean they are obviously treating them well and with respect etc!
 
I completely agree with PolarSkye. No my horses don't care who mucks out, but I like to see the state of their beds and poos and water and if they finished their tea and hay or not. I think they do care about who chats to them whilst changing their rugs, and who handles them and grooms them and feeds them, so it's DIY all the way for me...having said that I'd love the luxury of an occasional lie in, and to be able to go out for the day or away for holidays/weekends without the worry of asking someone to do them for me!
 
This thread has made me pmsl. What is all this bonding c**p.
Does anyone really believe that the likes of John Whitaker, Edward Gal or WFP go out & muck out & feed & do all the day to day care of all or any of their horses?
Horses do not give a flying fig who tends to there needs providing it is done consistently in a routine. Bet you none of the stable staff with all the bonding they have could not get a similar tune out of any of the horses though.
I think that owners who believe this habit creates a special bond just like to make themselves feel good for their efforts.
 
I have two on full livery on a yard 20 miles away. They each have a sharer (ride only) for one / two days a week and get schooled professionally once a week. I work full-time, often long hours and go abroad a lot. It wouldn't work any other way.
Anybody seeing their reaction when I pitch up at the yard knows that they know exactly who the important people in their lives are, and with them it happens to be the YM, the sharer, the trainer and I (in no particular order).
There is no issue as regards to trust or bond ... Although it is usually the trainer or me ride if the spring fewer and its likes kick in ;-)
Anybody saying you cam only bond with a horse if you muck it out is IMHO a little bit strange or possibly envious?
 
millitiger said:
I have had mine at home, on DIY and on part livery before and can say I probably have a BETTER relationship with my horses now than I have before as I have more time to spend with them.
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I agree with this - My horse is on DIY livery and I often feel that the time I spend doing yard "chores" such as making haynets, mucking out etc. would be better spent doing things WITH my horse rather than FOR him, such as grooming or riding. Luckily I have enough time to do him DIY and spend time with him (he's on box rest at the minute so no riding) but if I didn't (due to work or family commitments perhaps) I would definitely consider full or part livery. As far as mucking out/feeding etc I don't think horses give two hoots who does it as long as its done; it is who spends time with them giving them a scratch, taking them for hacks or feeding them polos that they appreciate most. I dislike the thinking of some people who suggest keeping a horse on full livery makes you somehow less of a horse owner. We all do what we have to do to make sure our horses are happy and healthy! Some people are rich in time, some rich in money; as long as your horse is well looked after I don't think you should be made to feel guilty for keeping your horse on full livery or equally for keeping your horse on DIY.
 
FRESHMAN said:
This thread has made me pmsl. What is all this bonding c**p.
Does anyone really believe that the likes of John Whitaker, Edward Gal or WFP go out & muck out & feed & do all the day to day care of all or any of their horses?
Horses do not give a flying fig who tends to there needs providing it is done consistently in a routine. Bet you none of the stable staff with all the bonding they have could not get a similar tune out of any of the horses though.
I think that owners who believe this habit creates a special bond just like to make themselves feel good for their efforts.
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But you are imposing your values on other people - most people don't want to be John Whitaker, Edward Gal or Fox Pitt.
They have other jobs/careers/lives - and presumably are as professional in their fields.
Horses are their relaxation, pets, and time out of their hectic lives with no pressure - it's not all about the riding.
S :D
 
I don't think anyone (I imagine it's directed towards me) thinks mucking out is going to make you bond with your horse. As I said before I can't imagine they know or care who fills haynets/ mucks out BUT I do think it makes a difference if you are the one feeding, turning out, bringing in, changing rugs etc.
If all you do when you see your horse is ride and groom then I'm sorry but you are not going to have the same reaction as yard staff that do the 'nice' things i.e feed turnout etc.
I am not saying everyone on full/part only ever ride,groom and feed a few treats.
If the yard staff do the day to day care of the horse (ignoring mucking out, haynets,water) then they are going to bond with the horse. People who think there horse knows who 'mum' is but only spends a couple of hours with horse every other day or less are wrong. The horse will give the yard staff prioity as they know staff will feed, turn them out.

I don't think anyone on this thread is being strange or envious. I do think some people have to justify to themselves that their horses still think of them as the most important person in the world when they are clearly not.

As long as you and YOUR horse are happy and you enjoy each other what does it matter? I am just putting my ideas about it across and silly comments like 'anyone who says you can only bind with your horse if you muck out is IMHO a little strange or envious' just goes to show you haven't read or understood any of the repiles on this thread.
 
I keep mine on Full Livery due to working full time. Its very important to me that I have facilities to keep riding at night and through the winter. I do not feel I am missing out as due to the facilities I still see him 5 days a week and ride/ groom the usual. However I am lucky enough that I had him on DIY for the first 4 years I had him since he was a youngster so we already have a strong bond as he has never been to another home other than the one he was born in and then me. I think our relationship would be very different if he was on full livery since ownership. I have worked on livery yards and the owners do not know their horses aswell as the staff. I think it was important for me to know my horse and him to know me because now I am delighted when he does silly things or when the staff on my yard tell me things about him and I realise they have gotten to know him as well as I do. :)
 
Shilasdair said:
But you are imposing your values on other people - most people don't want to be John Whitaker, Edward Gal or Fox Pitt.
They have other jobs/careers/lives - and presumably are as professional in their fields.
Horses are their relaxation, pets, and time out of their hectic lives with no pressure - it's not all about the riding.
S :D
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Long time no speak Shilasdair. No, not imposing my values on other people, it was merely an example regarding if a horse does not have the necessary bond with it's owner, it is less likely to attempt to trust/please/try for you. I really do not believe a horse gives a damn about day to day care or who gives it! On the same basis any person who is either a professional in a different field of work & finds themself needing day to day care of their horse from a third party can & often does get whatever it is they seek from a horse whether that is pleasure, fun or competition.
For me this bonding stuff is all about the people who want to fulfill there own needs.
 
FRESHMAN said:
This thread has made me pmsl. What is all this bonding c**p.
Does anyone really believe that the likes of John Whitaker, Edward Gal or WFP go out & muck out & feed & do all the day to day care of all or any of their horses?
Horses do not give a flying fig who tends to there needs providing it is done consistently in a routine. Bet you none of the stable staff with all the bonding they have could not get a similar tune out of any of the horses though.
I think that owners who believe this habit creates a special bond just like to make themselves feel good for their efforts.
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I guess for the one horse owner, it's important that they feel a 'bond' with their horse, whereas a pro doesn't care about performing the everyday care as long as the horse does the job.

There are/were pro partnerships where there is definitely a bond like Ed Gaal and Totilas. I think that the bond doesn't necessarily come from the owner/rider performing the day to day care. For me, my bond with my horse has come from training him myself, progressing and him growing in confidence because of me and the way I train him.
 
My horse is on 5 day part livery, with me doing all at the weekends. I am sure he knows all the grooms as well as he does me. I think there is a difference in the way they treat him though. When I turn out/bring in, I talk to my horse as I do it - the grooms are usually on their mobiles...When I feed him at the weekend, I usually stand and watch him eat for a while. When I leave after riding, I always go back to his stable and say a final goodbye with a head scratch and often a treat. The grooms do none of that. It is those one-to-one moments that can help build a relationship.
 
Amaretto. So are you agreeing that it is the owner who feels it is important to claim a bond with there horse?
I disagree with regards to the Pro. A Pro usually has many horses to ride/produce/school/ back so it follows whilst they are earning a living they employ staff for day to day care. The Pro's I know will insist on the best care given by employees. After all that is what they are paying wages for.
 
Hi,

I have part loaned - doing stables in exchange for riding - (before buying my lad) and loved every minute of it.

But now I have my own boy on full livery. Reasons below:

1. I'm a first timer, my boy was purchased under weight and I know the livery I have him at can help me up his weight and advise me how to look after him properly (it's a riding school and all their horses are so plump and happy (:¬)).
2. He's about twenty minutes walk away from my house.
3. I could have had him part livery at another stable but after 'extras' it worked out about the same to have him full livery at his current yard.
4. I do work full time, mum of two and I can't realistically DIY even though I really want to:

Yes, I really do want to, 95% of ownership to me is the mucking out, feeding, water, turn out - the riding and grooming part is the icing on the cake.

For me though it's currently un-doable. My lad likes the stable staff (he's already a favourite at the yard), his new turn out buddies and gets a good routine and he's settled in really well.

:D
 
I'm sorry, and I'm sure I'll get shot down for this, but to me this all sounds like playground stuff where one child is only allowed to have one friend at a time! Horses are sentient beings, they can form relationships with different people that work in different ways. I don't believe they care who picks up the poo, but on the other hand I can see how they would build a relationship (for want of a better word) with a staff member who handles them regularly. It doesn't (to my mind) mean they are showing a preference for the staff over 'mum' it just means they know who does what. My daughter gets her treats and extra special fun time with her nan, does that mean she forgets me? No!

In answer to the question I have two horses, one on full livery and one on part, it's a long story, but they both know who I am and both come when I call/they see me. They're happy, cared for and I'm happy spending quality time with them. I've done DIY and enjoyed it at a yard closer to home, but even then I didn't have as much time with either of mine that I do now.

Each to their own, to do what suits them and their horses would be my feeling on the subject. I don't see the point in bickering over a horse's perspective! Sorry, just my opinion! :)
 
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bikerchickone said:
I'm sorry, and I'm sure I'll get shot down for this, but to me this all sounds like playground stuff where one child is only allowed to have one friend at a time! Horses are sentient beings, they can form relationships with different people that work in different ways. I don't believe they care who picks up the poo, but on the other hand I can see how they would build a relationship (for want of a better word) with a staff member who handles them regularly. It doesn't (to my mind) mean they are showing a preference for the staff over 'mum' it just means they know who does what. My daughter gets her treats and extra speacial fun time with her nan, does that mean she forgets me? No!

In answer to the question I have two horses, one on full livery and one on part, it's a long story, but they both know who I am and both come when I call/they see me. They're happy, cared for and I'm happy spending quality time with them. I've done DIY and enjoyed it at a yard closer to home, but even then I didn't have as much time with either of mine that I do now.

Each to their own, to do what suits them and their horses would be my feeling on the subject. I don't see the point in bickering over a horse's perspective! Sorry, just my opinion! :)
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Completely agree. My lad is pleased to see me and my bag of carrots but to be fair he doesn't really care whose got his feed bucket as long as he gets it...
 
FRESHMAN said:
Amaretto. So are you agreeing that it is the owner who feels it is important to claim a bond with there horse?
I disagree with regards to the Pro. A Pro usually has many horses to ride/produce/school/ back so it follows whilst they are earning a living they employ staff for day to day care. The Pro's I know will insist on the best care given by employees. After all that is what they are paying wages for.
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I'm saying it 'might' be more important for the one horse owner to feel some feedback from the horse in terms of them whickering at them for food, or running to them when called from the field, than it would a pro. That is one type of 'bond' if people want to call it that. Also didn't say anything about Pro horses not receiving the best care, I absolutely know that these horses are in the best hands.

You know better than me but I'd assume that the Pro's 'bond' is created through the training/riding competing and bringing the best out of the horse (as was obvious between Ed/Toto, or Andy/Gerry) and sharing success through their partnership, rather than through performing the every day care.

For me, I get that connection with my horse through feeling like I have achieved something with his training because I have had him since an unbacked 3y/o and trained him myself. To feel him grow in confidence and improve is what gives me gratification, rather than him whinnying (although it is cute when he does, it's probably because he wants food!). I don't feel like my bond is diminished because I don't perform his every day care.

So I think we are saying the same thing?
 
Dolly_Mixture said:
Thanks for the replies.. It's good to hear some positive stories, as all I've heard is that it's pointless getting a horse to then keep it on full livery :( x
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Noooo not true...When I first got the Monster I was working as a Nanny in London so no way woul I have been able to meet his needs in terms of a strict routine and being able to deliver meals at same time...then I did a series of jobs which involved a lot of driving and so full livery is brill for really just meeting horses basic requirements in a safe, predictable enviornment

That said there is nothing like the simple joy of being able to drop his feed in at night and tidy his bed before tucking him up.....I need to get out more....
 
My 2 are on full livery, but I go up everyday, to exercise (which is usually loose schooling), brush, spend time fussing them, and unless I'm working late I usually put their night feed and net in.

I wouldn't have the time to do 2 full muck outs every day and work (I can't abide deep litter).

And the reason I put my first horse on full livery, was because I felt like I was spending all my time doing stable work, and not spending anytime with her.
 
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