Those who don't vaccinate- a question!

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Dizzydancer

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Do you not vaccinate for anything? Do you always blood test?
My dog is no longer able to have his jabs I don't think as they kicked off immune mediated poly arthritis- I am now not sure what to do! We have lots of parvo so I would like to maybe vaccinate just against that. I believe but can't prove that it was the lepto 4 that caused the reaction
 
I kept a lot of dogs for a very long time and only vaccinated the most valuable as it would have been prohibitively expensive to do them all. I lost two dogs (pets) in the early 1950's, then had Distemper in a pack of hounds back in 1958 and lost, I think, two. Since then, I lost just one to Leptospirosis. That's all! But these dogs were in closed kennels and never went to shows or competitions or out in public.

It is a risk and up to the owner to decide whether to vaccinate or not and if so how often.

There was an owner who kept a very large commercial gundog kennel in the 1930s/1940s who used to deliberately introduce Distemper into his kennel. The disease is not usually a killer, it is the secondary infections that kill. So most of his dogs would survive exposure to the disease. He advertised his dogs as immunised against canine distemper long before commercial vaccines were available.

I could tell you more stories, but if your dog is a valued pet, it is your choice whether you take the risk. My two are inoculated but won't get annual boosters as I don't think they are necessary. But that's my choice and my risk. A vet will be along in a minute to tell you I don't know what I am talking about.:)
 
Our dogs have only had vaccinations as puppies, so only in the first year of their life. *Touch wood* we have never had any issues. Our oldest dog is now 17 and a half so it certainly hasn't done him any harm.

I know a lot of people think that vaccinations are important but I have seen far too many reactions to vaccinations, in both dogs and horses, so I made the decision not to continue with them (although one horse is regularly vaccinated due to competing).
 
My dogs have only ever had the 2 injections as pups and nothing else.....in fact I used to have a vet (the only vet I ever believed in) who said the only dogs that needed vaccinations were rural dogs who hardly mixed with others, all dogs that live in areas where they mixed with other dogs got their own immunity to diseases. My dogs have all lived to old age without ever being ill.
 
Thanks for the responses it makes me feel better knowing others don't do it- I was always thinking of titre testing anyway but now I don't have the option to vaccinate!
What do your insurance companies think about it- I know most state dogs to be immunised. I will be getting my vet to contact my insurance- they have just paid over 2k out for this problem so I doubt they will be all to keen to do that annually!!
 
We only vaccinate as pups, except the gundogs get annual boosters for a few years. Interesting, Bonny, what your vet says as ours are rural dogs and rarely meet others (except the gundogs). I thought it was a plus but I see what you say, maybe it isn't.
Our working terriers never were and although mainly used on fox they also ratted, none were ever ill.
 
Dizzydancer said:
What do your insurance companies think about it- I know most state dogs to be immunised. I will be getting my vet to contact my insurance- they have just paid over 2k out for this problem so I doubt they will be all to keen to do that annually!!
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The majority will just not pay out for treatment of any disease which could have been prevented by vaccination - though do check your policy wording carefully.

I do core vaccines every three years and only lepto annually. We have seen both parvo and lepto cases this year, including in a previously vaccinated dog (last core vaccine four years previously).
 
Those who don't vaccinate are normally getting the advantage of herd immunity i.e because a lot of dogs are vaccinated you are not coming into contact with un vaccinated dogs - the more people believe the ' my dog only needs its puppy jabs and NONE after' the more dogs are going to end up getting sick as the herd immunity decreases.
if your dog has had areaction though, I would titre test and only vacc as necessary as clearly the vacc don't react well with them.
 
SusieT said:
Those who don't vaccinate are normally getting the advantage of herd immunity i.e because a lot of dogs are vaccinated you are not coming into contact with un vaccinated dogs - the more people believe the ' my dog only needs its puppy jabs and NONE after' the more dogs are going to end up getting sick as the herd immunity decreases.
if your dog has had areaction though, I would titre test and only vacc as necessary as clearly the vacc don't react well with them.
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You can prove this, of course.
 
I was working in the NHS during the last measles outbreak - that the outbreaks originated in areas with the lowest vaccination rates (following the MMR scare) was not a surprise to anybody.
 
Thanks for your responses- I will check with insurance.
We don't travel him abroad and he goes to my parents if we are away or to our gun dog trainer who is happy to have him if not vaccinated as he goes in the house not kennels.
I feel better knowing others are in similar situation but for peace of mind I will likely titre test and then do as required- maybe the vets can give him a course of steroids if jabs are required to dull his response.
Thanks all
 
Dry Rot said:
You can prove this, of course.
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Actually, many hundreds of scientists have proved this. For fun I just put 'herd immunity' into the scientific database I use for research and it gave me several thousand papers worth of 'proof'. In the bad parvo outbreak at the practice I worked at last year, the dogs dying were all centred around one of our branch practices where people either didn't vaccinate or only did puppy vaccines. Several adult dogs died in that outbreak who had puppy vaccines 3-4 years earlier and none since.

To the OP, titre testing sounds like the most sensible route. Hopefully his titres will be ok for a good while yet, but even if they aren't and you don't want to vaccinate, it will allow you to be aware and take into account those situations where he might be more at risk of picking things up.
 
Dry Rot how do you place a value on your dogs?

is it financial cost? emotional? time invested?

for me all my dogs are valuable, like friends and family I value them too.

if you vaccinate your most 'valuable' dogs you must agree that the vaccines serve a purpose and provide some protection or you would see it as a waste of time to vaccinate any of them.

herd immunity has been proven time and time again, it is why we are seeing more and more outbreaks of childhood diseases in areas where the uptake of vaccines for these diseases are low.
 
twiggy2 said:
Dry Rot how do you place a value on your dogs?

is it financial cost? emotional? time invested?

for me all my dogs are valuable, like friends and family I value them too.

if you vaccinate your most 'valuable' dogs you must agree that the vaccines serve a purpose and provide some protection or you would see it as a waste of time to vaccinate any of them.

herd immunity has been proven time and time again, it is why we are seeing more and more outbreaks of childhood diseases in areas where the uptake of vaccines for these diseases are low.
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I was at vet college long enough to become a confirmed cynic.

As I have said, my current dogs get the one vaccination and that's it for life. This is a personal choice and not one I will change by being subjected to emotional blackmail.

You make your choice, I'll make mine. Dogs have managed to survive for at least 10,000 years without being stuffed full of drugs. The funny thing is a local vet actually complained that I never took a dog to his surgery. My reply, "That's because they are never ill", so I must be doing something right.

One death from Lepto and four from distemper in 60 years ( and that is a LOT of working dogs, not single pets) and you think the expense would have been justified? Pah!

I thought the increase in childhood diseases was attributed to kids being feather bedded these days and not being allowed to acquire a natural immunity? How often do you see kids climbing trees, for example? The poor little dears might fall and hurt themselves, so that is not allowed -- at least not without hard hats and scaffolding!
 
Mine was vaccinated til he was about 5 then I missed the booster date by accident but then talking to several friends it seemed the general opinion was not to bother. My younger (14 months) lab had his puppy jabs and will have boosters this year. Partly because he wasn't in the best of health when I got him at 5 months partly because a footpath runs past my work where he spends much of his time so meets a lot of other dogs.
 
FYI Dry rot - we're not talking bugs caught by playing in mud when we talk about childhood disease- we're talking polio, smallpox, measles etc. So what was it about vet college that made you so cynical about vaccines exactly?
The herd immunity theory is well proven btw...
poiuytrewq - what makes you think these friends know anything about dog disease and vaccinations? Why not have a decent discussion with your vet about it?
 
SusieT said:
FYI Dry rot - we're not talking bugs caught by playing in mud when we talk about childhood disease- we're talking polio, smallpox, measles etc. So what was it about vet college that made you so cynical about vaccines exactly?
The herd immunity theory is well proven btw...
poiuytrewq - what makes you think these friends know anything about dog disease and vaccinations? Why not have a decent discussion with your vet about it?
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I am not going to bother arguing with you. The fact is I've lost four dogs to distemper over the years but all these were before vaccinations were in use. Since then, I've lost one dog to Leptospirosis. Over the last 40 years, I doubt whether I have ever had fewer than ten of my own dogs in my kennel. Those are facts, not propaganda. But you go ahead and hand you money over to the vets who have admitted to me that they sometimes spread rumours of epidemics just to drum up a bit of trade!
 
Dry Rot said:
I kept a lot of dogs for a very long time and only vaccinated the most valuable as it would have been prohibitively expensive to do them all.
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Dry rot my last post was in response mainly to this sentence, it was not in any way blackmail and I thought it was a valid question in light of the above.

In response to your last post, I work with many vets and they all without exception vaccinate their own dogs as puppies and continue to do so annually throughout the dogs life unless there is a situation such as the OP finds themselves in when things may be different
 
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Dry Rot said:
I thought the increase in childhood diseases was attributed to kids being feather bedded these days and not being allowed to acquire a natural immunity? How often do you see kids climbing trees, for example? The poor little dears might fall and hurt themselves, so that is not allowed -- at least not without hard hats and scaffolding!
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The increase in measles mumps and rubella is directly related to the reduction in MMR vaccination due to the autism scare by that awful doctor who made up his evidence.

There are some dead kids and a lot more deaf kids and sterile boys because of that dreadful man.
 
twiggy2 said:
Dry rot my last post was in response mainly to this sentence, it was not in any way blackmail and I thought it was a valid question in light of the above.

In response to your last post, I work with many vets and they all without exception vaccinate their own dogs as puppies and continue to do so annually throughout the dogs life unless there is a situation such as the OP finds themselves in when things may be different
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Of course the vets vaccinate their own dogs! Vet's dogs will be exposed to all sorts of infections, far in excess of the average pet dog. And they buy trade and just pass the cost on to their clients. Anyway, I always refer to the vet's surgery as "the disease exchange" and suspect vets exhort new owners to bring their dogs in for an examination at their most vulnerable time so they can collect a few more diseases!

It cost me £40 each to vaccinate my two recently. I did it myself as I didn't want a certificate or the bother of taking them to the surgery (50 mile round trip). It used to cost me about £6 bought over the counter but now most insist on a "health check" (which is what the bulk of the fee is for) when I invariably have to explain that the irregular heart beat is (a) because they've travelled (which they are not used to), and (b) because they are super fit (which the vets are not used to!). So I get charged the health check anyway even though the vet has never seen the dogs. The words rip off come to mind.

Veterinary surgery is no longer a profession, it is a trade. And like any other trade, it is subject to fraud where the customer is naive or not able to check. I believe the word of my vets (plural) as much as I believe the word of my plumber or my garage mechanic -- to be viewed with suspicion until proved otherwise.

The most revealing chat I've ever had was with a young vet who was about to emigrate to Australia and had no axe to grind. My own experiences include a vet declaring that my dog had mange after viewing a skin scraping through the microscope. He went bright red when I looked through the 'scope myself and pointed out that there were no mites! Another said he'd sent samples off for tests and alleged that they did not confirm the owner's (a nurse) diagnosis while a second opinion from another vet who DID send off the samples proved her to be right. So fees charged for expensive tests that were never done. I could go on. And if I sound angry, that is because I am. I do not like to be cheated or treated as a fool.

Whether you vaccinate your dogs or not is a personal choice. Whether you chose to go for annual boosters is also a personal choice. But I would suggest the choice should be an informed choice, and not made through ignorance, fear, or emotional blackmail, that is all.
 
right, so because a vet once told you there were mites that you couldn't see, vaccination is clearly a con. I see. And obviously any vet wouldn't know that a high heart rate can be caused by travel, but you youselve know that any irregular heart rate couldn't possibly be due to a problem but must be because your dogs are super dogs.
Yes- informed choice it should be, not informed by people who don't bother to even read up on the science behind it. Surely if dogs don't need vaccinated after year one, vets dogs are no more likely to need vaccinated so why do they do it?
 
SusieT said:
right, so because a vet once told you there were mites that you couldn't see, vaccination is clearly a con. I see. And obviously any vet wouldn't know that a high heart rate can be caused by travel, but you youselve know that any irregular heart rate couldn't possibly be due to a problem but must be because your dogs are super dogs.
Yes- informed choice it should be, not informed by people who don't bother to even read up on the science behind it. Surely if dogs don't need vaccinated after year one, vets dogs are no more likely to need vaccinated so why do they do it?
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I have 5 dogs, all vaccinated. A couple of months ago I took my young collie (1 year) for his boostewr, and he had a violent reaction, being sick, foaming at the mouth and was rushed back down.

The vets have said next year he us to have a different jab, half hour before his booster to stop it happening again.

I did some research online, and have also spoken with 3 different vets at the practice, and for me, next year... He will still get His vaccination.
 
sam-b said:
I have 5 dogs, all vaccinated. A couple of months ago I took my young collie (1 year) for his boostewr, and he had a violent reaction, being sick, foaming at the mouth and was rushed back down.

The vets have said next year he us to have a different jab, half hour before his booster to stop it happening again.

I did some research online, and have also spoken with 3 different vets at the practice, and for me, next year... He will still get His vaccination.
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That is your choice based on advice from the vets who profit from vaccinating.

My choice is based on 40 years experience of seldom having less that 10 dogs in my own kennel and sometimes up to 50. Over that period, as a client and as a vet student, I have also learnt that vets are often motivated by profit rather than by what is best for the client or for the patient. Over that period, I have lost ONE dog to a disease I could have vaccinated against.

That is what some posters on here don't seem to get. Unless there is some unwritten law that we have to model ourselves on these one or two posters, it is our choice. If you want, you can dye your dog pink and paint it with green spots. So long as you break no laws, that is your choice.
 
I was assured, 40 years ago and by a qualified Vet, that vaccination against the common diseases, then, gave the dog protection until it reached the age of about 12 months, by which time the animal had built up its own immunity. It seemed to me to make sense then as now, because those dogs which I've known of, and remember and which became infected, were all under the age of 12 months. I find it difficult to accept that with the advances in the highly lucrative manufacture of medicine, that vaccines have become less efficient.

I've never entirely understood the idea of 'Herd Immunity' when applied to dogs, unless one considers that two dogs together are a pack! I understand and agree with D_R's belief that Vet's surgeries are the ideal environment in which to pick up bugs, but then at some time in the dog's life, they have to be exposed to risk to enable them to build up their own immunity, I'd have thought. Perhaps for a dog to create its own immunity levels, it doesn't have to come in to contact with infection, I'm really not sure.

My collies never ever meet up with other dogs. They either work, or are kennelled or in the back of my vehicle. They are never vaccinated. The gundogs, are vaccinated as puppies, and then I never bother with boosters. The reason why boarding kennels insist upon evidence of vaccination is because to limit their risks, and it's the Insurance Companies who in turn insist upon the condition.

There is no question that for all small animal veterinary practises the sale of booster vaccines is a lucrative aspect of their business, and one which they promote. There are also many Vet's practices which promote the very high protein feeds for puppies which most consider, justifiably, to be extremely dangerous, and there would be huge questions over the ethical stance of that practice, too!

Regarding the 'Evidence' which some on here would offer up in support of their arguments, evidence can be sourced to prove just about anything, including by the 'Flat Earth Society', and to support their rather curious argument! Sourced 'Evidence' can be a very subjective matter, I think!!

Alec.
 
sam-b said:
I have 5 dogs, all vaccinated. A couple of months ago I took my young collie (1 year) for his boostewr, and he had a violent reaction, being sick, foaming at the mouth and was rushed back down.

The vets have said next year he us to have a different jab, half hour before his booster to stop it happening again.

I did some research online, and have also spoken with 3 different vets at the practice, and for me, next year... He will still get His vaccination.
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I've only just read your post. As D_R says, the choice of course is yours, but in your shoes, I wouldn't run the risk of a booster. As you will see from the above post of mine, I consider them to be a waste of time, but in your case, I'd also consider them to be too great a risk.

As a matter of interest, I wonder if the Vet who recommended that your dog have a booster, charged you for the remedial treatment following the reaction.

Alec.
 
Ahem, people seem to be getting very uptight on this matter, seeing who can shout loudest to convince everyone they are right!!!! Please calm down and give friendly advice and anecdotes. Something that has not thus far been suggested as an alternative is the homeopathic route. This is the course I have chosen for my two Tollers, as it is a known fact that vaccinations can induce SRMA in the breed, and I didn't want to run the risk. My oldest girl is coming up 16.5 years old, and there is no way I would inflict vaccinations on her in particular. If you are open minded enough, take a look at http://www.alternativevet.org and http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/PetVaccination.html to see that there is indeed, an alternative solution to annual boosters, by people who are not funded by any manufacturer...
 
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