blackcob
🖖
A sensible alternative solution is simply to not vaccinate - homeopathy cannot be considered sensible by any definition of the word...
Those who don't vaccinate- a question!
- Thread starter Dizzydancer
- Start date
Murphy88
Well-Known Member
A favourite saying of mine is 'What do you call Alternative Medicine that works? Medicine.'
Alec - herd immunity is not applying to the individual/small group of animals being a 'herd', the 'herd' is the population as a whole. So the herd is every dog in the UK. Now I'm sure your's and Dry Rots dogs do have a degree of developed immunity secondary to exposure, they have also been protected by herd immunity. Now, as more people choose not to vaccinate we will lose herd immunity, meaning unvaccinated dogs are more likely to come into contact with other unvaccinated dogs and hey presto, disease outbreaks. The same applied to human paediatric medicine, and explains why measles/mumps/rubella outbreaks returned after the issues with MMR.
Regarding the sourcing of evidence, yes, evidence can be obtained from anywhere, however I use scientific databases of peer-reviewed scientific journals which is actually about as objective as evidence can be.
Dry Rot - I don't know when and where you attended vet school that you were able to become so cynical about money grabbing but not learn about herd immunity. Certainly, I managed to attend 5 years of vet school and learn plenty about immunology, and of my cohort of close vet friends from every university I wouldn't say any of us are in it for the money. I work 12-18 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year in my current job because I love what I do and find it rewarding and stimulating. I would always vaccinate my dogs, not because they are at higher risk, but because I have watched many many dogs die of parvo and it is not worth the risk to me.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
My point about the vet's surgery being a great place to exchange diseases is because that is where a new owner will be advised to take his dog while it is still under the stress of changing it's home and possibly after travelling. What I find even more strange is that it is invariably the vet who advises this check up, then fills it full of drugs including the inevitable wormers -- which probably lower it's resistance still further! (Neither Max nor Foxy have had a vet check up since arriving here -- six years ago in Foxy's case -- let alone a worming! Both are repulsively healthy).
Probably from habit, dog trainers often lack the social skills. "Sit" means "Sit". It is not up for debate or something for discussion in a committee meeting. My dogs know that! So I find it rather annoying when I am expected to repeat myself ad infinitum to humans who are meant to be the more intelligent species!
So, apologies all round if it seems I have lost my temper. I haven't. But there are times when I feel I really have got it wrong about electric collars! But for humans, not the dogs
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Probably from habit, dog trainers often lack the social skills. "Sit" means "Sit". It is not up for debate or something for discussion in a committee meeting. My dogs know that! So I find it rather annoying when I am expected to repeat myself ad infinitum to humans who are meant to be the more intelligent species!
So, apologies all round if it seems I have lost my temper. I haven't. But there are times when I feel I really have got it wrong about electric collars! But for humans, not the dogs
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twiggy2
Well-Known Member
My point about the vet's surgery being a great place to exchange diseases is because that is where a new owner will be advised to take his dog while it is still under the stress of changing it's home and possibly after travelling. What I find even more strange is that it is invariably the vet who advises this check up, then fills it full of drugs including the inevitable wormers -- which probably lower it's resistance still further! (Neither Max nor Foxy have had a vet check up since arriving here -- six years ago in Foxy's case -- let alone a worming! Both are repulsively healthy).
Probably from habit, dog trainers often lack the social skills. "Sit" means "Sit". It is not up for debate or something for discussion in a committee meeting. My dogs know that! So I find it rather annoying when I am expected to repeat myself ad infinitum to humans who are meant to be the more intelligent species!
So, apologies all round if it seems I have lost my temper. I haven't. But there are times when I feel I really have got it wrong about electric collars! But for humans, not the dogs
most vets advise a delay before vaccinating a new puppy due to the immune system already coping with so much
Alec Swan
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You make a persuasive argument. Few would deny that when exposed to environments where there is a substantial risk, then protective vaccines would be the way for any responsible owner to travel, but during the period of risk. How would you counter my 'belief' that vaccines in young puppies are there to give protection until early adulthood, and that once immunity is established, further protection is superfluous?
To D_R's last post, I have to agree with him. It isn't a case of 'sticking together', as when I disagree, and on occasion I do, then I say so. My OH has a young lurcher dog, and before that she had another greatly loved bitch. Before that she had 3 other bitches, all lurchers. She (we) have spent more on those 6 or so dogs over the last 12 years, than I have in all but 50 years, and hundreds of dogs. The DG isn't always given to listening to common sense!
Considering D_R's thoughts and my modest offerings; Is it the case that our collective experience is simply a case of 'Luck'? Genuine questions, all of them.
Alec.
sam-b
Well-Known Member
Dizzydancer
Well-Known Member
Oops feel like I opened a bag of worms!
Honestly I appreciate everyone's opinions and options I however am lucky in that my uncle is a vet unfortunately not close enough to be my vet but he gives me advice which I know is genuinely in the animals best interests.
Sam-b sorry your dog had a reaction and i hope that your dog doesn't react again- I however can no longer risk it- the chances of a relapse are incredibly high and for me that is a risk I will not be taking.
Honestly I appreciate everyone's opinions and options I however am lucky in that my uncle is a vet unfortunately not close enough to be my vet but he gives me advice which I know is genuinely in the animals best interests.
Sam-b sorry your dog had a reaction and i hope that your dog doesn't react again- I however can no longer risk it- the chances of a relapse are incredibly high and for me that is a risk I will not be taking.
Saneta
Well-Known Member
Ah well, I tried to put forward an alternative solution to your problem. Should have realised the reaction it would receive from people who have closed minds and know best. Such a shame...
Copperpot
Well-Known Member
Mine have them as puppies and then a yearly booster for 2 years and that's it.
We don't put them on kennels or go abroad. I do want to insure one of them so he may have to start having them again.
We don't put them on kennels or go abroad. I do want to insure one of them so he may have to start having them again.
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
mine get a puppy course and a first booster. My insurance paid of for a respiratory infection even though the vet insisted on putting "not vaccinated" on the form and that it resembled kennel cough!
Copperpot
Well-Known Member
That's good to know. I'd like to find an insurance co that don't insist on it. As a broken bone is nothing to do with jabs is it. But I imagine some would use it to get out of paying out.
blackcob
🖖
The vast majority don't require vaccination as a condition of providing cover, they just won't pay out for anything that could have been prevented by routine vaccination.
Copperpot
Well-Known Member
That's fair enough. I shall get him insured then 😊
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
As we drove like lunatics to the emergency vets at 1am I did have a moment of "ouch this is going to hurt!" but they did pay out so all good. However dont go with John Lewis! They are very, very cheap for the level of cover. £16 ish for 2 3 yr old lurchers. The renewal came through about a month after we claimed. The cost of the claim was less than £400 inc follow up visits etc. They put my premium up to nearly £50 a month!
Copperpot
Well-Known Member
I shall avoid them then. I did see an advert for an insurance co who offered better rates for staffys, he is the one I am insuring. But can't remember who it was!
I had my terriers with NFU before they got too old and it was cheaper to just cough up for the bills myself ☺️
I had my terriers with NFU before they got too old and it was cheaper to just cough up for the bills myself ☺️
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
Pet Plan offer a life long cover and yes monthly premiums are more expensive at the beginning but as the animal ages it becomes better-we have plenty of clients with older dogs who pay less in premiums than pet plan are paying monthly for medications and some have been like that for a few years.
at work
Well-Known Member
What normally kills after distemper is the long-term damage to the central nervous system (St Vitus' Dance) rather than the early symptoms. It is nasty. Leptospirosis is dangerous to human life.
What many people fail to understand about vaccination is that, for most diseases in a normal population, many individuals will have a natural immunity and never become ill with it. Even if they succumb to illness, most individuals don't die from a given disease (if the plague or 'flu epidemics had wiped out the whole population we'd now be extinct). Vaccination simply prevents susceptible individuals from getting the disease and also prevents the disease from spreading so much (because fewer individuals get ill in the first place, so fewer can pass it on. Vaccination creates a 'barrier' to the spread of disease).
Thus, you may well be vaccinating an animal that will never get ill. The only way to find out is to take that risk. The more people there are who choose not to vaccinate, the higher the risk of a preventable, infectious disease eventually spreading among that community.
If your animal genuinely suffers side effects from vaccination then it may be sensible to chose not to vaccinate, but those cases are rare.
What many people fail to understand about vaccination is that, for most diseases in a normal population, many individuals will have a natural immunity and never become ill with it. Even if they succumb to illness, most individuals don't die from a given disease (if the plague or 'flu epidemics had wiped out the whole population we'd now be extinct). Vaccination simply prevents susceptible individuals from getting the disease and also prevents the disease from spreading so much (because fewer individuals get ill in the first place, so fewer can pass it on. Vaccination creates a 'barrier' to the spread of disease).
Thus, you may well be vaccinating an animal that will never get ill. The only way to find out is to take that risk. The more people there are who choose not to vaccinate, the higher the risk of a preventable, infectious disease eventually spreading among that community.
If your animal genuinely suffers side effects from vaccination then it may be sensible to chose not to vaccinate, but those cases are rare.
Dizzydancer
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your input at work- as said in my OP my dog has suffered a side effect which has now affected him for nearly 12months and now I have to take the risk not to vaccinate.
sam-b
Well-Known Member
Sensible response indeed
Trust my dog to be rare. Bloody thing. They think he has a hyper immune system as has also had near constant runs since march with no actual cause found and no real resolution ....
Trust my dog to be rare. Bloody thing. They think he has a hyper immune system as has also had near constant runs since march with no actual cause found and no real resolution ....