Those with Andys, Do you shoe or not????

Is there a mineral analysis for the land you graze? This could be something as simple as a lack of magnesium or copper, or both.
 
Tamba said:
Without causing a new debate, I dont trust trimmers, and prefer using a farrier, who I know has trained in that discipline, and have qualifications to prove it.
I think ballerina's problem is, that she has very small feet for the size of her, as shes quite a stocky mare.
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Yes mine are seem by my farrier too.

Ahh so yours sounds like she has 'old fashioned' spanish feet and I think you are probably correct in that this is the problem, a friend of mine has a stallion with the same issue, she has had to shoe him, they tried fronts only to begin with but she eventually had to have him shod behind too, the horn was good but the shape of the feet did not allow him to be unshod.
 
Amaranta said:
You sound as if you were unlucky with your one cpt, in general they have very good feet with good strong horn, there are very many spanish horses doing very well without shoes, I hesitate to say the majority but it is very common to see them unshod, however not many are attended by trimmers I admit, most are seen by farriers.

I agree that I do not think these feet will harden up with work, but disagree that it is very common with Spanish horses, but I guess your one has possibly coloured your view. Yes Cleveland Bays, along with the Connemara, the Welsh D, the TB and The Highland all have some Spanish Blood in their genes but it is now very diluted.
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I know of plenty of others that struggle with grass in summer. I'm not saying that it is all of them and my view is not of one Iberian horse. Maybe yours are easy ones to manage barefoot; you have better mixed grazing than people in livery yards on ryegrass; you work yours harder; the mineral balances in your forage and grazing are perfect; you keep your horses nice and slim and others don't. I don't know your horses or this one but she isn't alone with this problem right at this time of year.

Ref your earlier post, I know that many horses do not fully mature until they are much older, but what I mean is that in every breed the majority of growth is over by three and the vast majority over by four. Both those milestones are reached with a decreasing need for food and a lower metabolism that struggles harder to digest sugars, made even worse by the fact that the older the horse gets the less "pointless" calorie-consuming movement it indulges in, as a generalisation.

It's very common for horses to be fine until they four or five and then suddenly go footie in the spring even though they have been in work without shoes since they were 3. It's often put down to an increase in work and the horse is shod, but I suspect it's often more to do with a drop in metabolic rate :o

On the plus side, it does appear to be true that shoes cut down the amount of blood going to the feet. I'm not supported in this by anyone I know, but it's my belief that if laminitis is caused by the total amount of gut toxin to reach the feet in a certain time period, and you cut down the amount of blood going to the feet, then there is also going to be less toxin reaching the foot. So a horse which is borderline laminitic without shoes on may well never get it with shoes on. On the downside, if it does get it, it's more likely to explode out of nowhere into a critical episode with little noticeable warning.
 
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I have an incredibly stocky Quarter Horse with tiny upright feet- she has never been shod (she's 7) and is the most surefooted of all our horses- she canters in from the field onto our stone yard and then onto tarmac without breaking stride!!! Don't read too much into foot shape and breeding- they all vary- but excercise and diet are major contributing factors in that order! Don't overdo the calories- ours have meadow hay mixed with barley straw and limited turnout on very poor grazing.
 
serenityjane said:
I have an incredibly stocky Quarter Horse with tiny upright feet- she has never been shod (she's 7) and is the most surefooted of all our horses- she canters in from the field onto our stone yard and then onto tarmac without breaking stride!!! Don't read too much into foot shape and breeding- they all vary- but excercise and diet are major contributing factors in that order! Don't overdo the calories- ours have meadow hay mixed with barley straw and limited turnout on very poor grazing.
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Agree with you entirely.
 
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not a good pic, and an old one, but you can see the size of her, shes stocky and her tiny little feet..
 
Amaranta said:
Yes mine are seem by my farrier too.

Ahh so yours sounds like she has 'old fashioned' spanish feet and I think you are probably correct in that this is the problem, a friend of mine has a stallion with the same issue, she has had to shoe him, they tried fronts only to begin with but she eventually had to have him shod behind too, the horn was good but the shape of the feet did not allow him to be unshod.
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This sounds like her, and I think this could be problem, acutally, she has a lot to balance on very little feet. I hope shoeing her helps..
 
cptrayes said:
I know of plenty of others that struggle with grass in summer. I'm not saying that it is all of them and my view is not of one Iberian horse. Maybe yours are easy ones to manage barefoot; you have better mixed grazing than people in livery yards on ryegrass; you work yours harder; the mineral balances in your forage and grazing are perfect; you keep your horses nice and slim and others don't. I don't know your horses or this one but she isn't alone with this problem right at this time of year.

I do manage my horses diets but I doubt very much that my mineral balances are perfect. I still have to challenge your comment about Spanish horses having trouble being unshod. I breed them, I know most of the other breeders in the UK (and many in Spain too), the odd one has a problem but because they are a pure breed they tend to have very tough feet, problems can occur in the 'old fashioned' foot as I mentioned before but in the main, if they do become 'footy' it is because they are allowed too much access to starch and sugar and not enough work.

Ref your earlier post, I know that many horses do not fully mature until they are much older, but what I mean is that in every breed the majority of growth is over by three and the vast majority over by four. Both those milestones are reached with a decreasing need for food and a lower metabolism that struggles harder to digest sugars, made even worse by the fact that the older the horse gets the less "pointless" calorie-consuming movement it indulges in, as a generalisation.

It's very common for horses to be fine until they four or five and then suddenly go footie in the spring even though they have been in work without shoes since they were 3. It's often put down to an increase in work and the horse is shod, but I suspect it's often more to do with a drop in metabolic rate :o

I agree, but you were specifically talking about a Spanish horse, they mature much much later than other horses, the danger age with them tends to be around 10


On the plus side, it does appear to be true that shoes cut down the amount of blood going to the feet. I'm not supported in this by anyone I know, but it's my belief that if laminitis is caused by the total amount of gut toxin to reach the feet in a certain time period, and you cut down the amount of blood going to the feet, then there is also going to be less toxin reaching the foot. So a horse which is borderline laminitic without shoes on may well never get it with shoes on. On the downside, if it does get it, it's more likely to explode out of nowhere into a critical episode with little noticeable warning.
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Hmm but without the blood reaching the foot, more damage will be done to the laminae as they would die off fairly quickly. As for preventing the toxin reaching the feet, the first thing to do would be to feed a probiotic to restore the gut balance and therefore prevent further leaking through the gut wall.
 
Everybody needs to stop tyeping hooves by breed is complete BS and generally a sop so that someone feels justified in their chosen course of action!

Shoeing aint going to fix the underlying issue here OP - if she has upright feet this is the way she is being trimmed because funnily enough its the person trimming her making that shape.

I had one trimmer who left me with these sized feet under a 16.2.....

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You say you trust your farrier because he trained for years in that discipline and yet your horse is telling you she aint happy with her feet.

A second opinion doesnt cost anything and could be very helpful before you drive nails into already compromised hooves.
 
Tampa, the carrier is doing a terrible job of those feet. Awfully long and contracted. Would not surprise me if the walls are too long.
 
TigerTail said:
Everybody needs to stop tyeping hooves by breed is complete BS and generally a sop so that someone feels justified in their chosen course of action!

Shoeing aint going to fix the underlying issue here OP - if she has upright feet this is the way she is being trimmed because funnily enough its the person trimming her making that shape.

I had one trimmer who left me with these sized feet under a 16.2.....

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You say you trust your farrier because he trained for years in that discipline and yet your horse is telling you she aint happy with her feet.

A second opinion doesnt cost anything and could be very helpful before you drive nails into already compromised hooves.
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Sorry but in the case of these old fashioned Spanish feet you are completely and utterly wrong, believe me.

If a farrier tried to drop the heels on a horse with this type of foot (I have seen imported horses with feet like tin cans) you would cause catastrophic injury to the tendons and ligaments. it is not due to trimming in these horses, they were bred that way for years, as it encouraged the high stepping action that the Spanish favoured, to try to change the foot in these cases is detrimental to the horse. Thankfully this type of foot is being bred out because people now want a straight moving horse for dressage, although it still resurfaces from time to time it is much less common than it used to be. A case in point is the stallion I mentioned in my previous post, I had his full brother, we shared the same farrier, both horses had their feet attended to from very early on, mine had picture perfect feet, the other has tin cans.

I can not really comment on the OPs horse's feet as you cannot honestly tell from that picture but it is far too easy to blame the farrier when you have not even seen a proper picture of the feet.
 
Bizarre then that I know of yard with 5 iberians, a couple of arabs and an ex racer who are all trimmed by the same person in the same manner, ie as conservatively as possible who all have rock crunching feet!

The foot is a product of its environment, feed and stimulation. Clearly trimming falls within the latter. In this case I do sincerely think it is an issue.
 
TigerTail said:
The foot is a product of its environment, feed and stimulation. Clearly trimming falls within the latter. In this case I do sincerely think it is an issue.
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Whilst I agree with you to a certain extent, foot conformation does have an impact and in the Spanish horse they historically had very upright small feet as appears to be the case with the OP's horse, although, as I said before it is impossible to tell from that photo so cannot comment. It IS breed specific and it is unfair to blame a farrier for this, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
 
Sorry, amaranta, not true. The Spanish horses feet are like any horses feet. You ask the breeders or anyone from BAPSH and they will tell you that some lines have poor feet due to poor breeding selection. Nothing to do with the evolution of Spanish horses. Some breeders in Spain prefer keeping the feet upright, but that is just aesthetics.
 
Originally Posted by Amaranta
if they do become 'footy' it is because they are allowed too much access to starch and sugar and not enough work.
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This is what I have been trying to say. And my experience is that compared to, say, thoroughbreds or Irish Drafts, you have to be more careful with a Spanish not to have too much starch/sugar and too little work.

Originally Posted by Amaranta
I agree, but you were specifically talking about a Spanish horse, they mature much much later than other horses, the danger age with them tends to be around 10
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I do not agree with you. Even in late maturing horses the fast growth period is already over at four and the rate of growth from then on, and metabolic need, is much slower. Very big warmbloods and IDs also do not mature until ten, this is not exclusively a Spanish phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Amaranta
Hmm but without the blood reaching the foot, more damage will be done to the laminae as they would die off fairly quickly.
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You miss my point, I think. Clearly in shod horses the laminae receive sufficient blood to survive or every shod horse would become a cripple very quickly. But if the blood supply is less than in an unshod horse, a smaller amount of gut toxin will be arriving at the foot and this may be sufficient reduction to prevent laminitis in a marginally affected shod horse. Of course it would be preferable to sort out the gut but some people really are in a position where they are unable to do that, given livery arrangements/work commitments etc.
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tallyho! said:
Sorry, amaranta, not true. The Spanish horses feet are like any horses feet. You ask the breeders or anyone from BAPSH and they will tell you that some lines have poor feet due to poor breeding selection. Nothing to do with the evolution of Spanish horses. Some breeders in Spain prefer keeping the feet upright, but that is just aesthetics.
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Which is what I am saying, they are breeding out the poor feet but it WAS a factor, however, as I said, is seen less these days than it was say 20 years ago.
 
Interesting discussion about small feet. If I was given a choice between small feet and big ones I would choose small ones. It's my experience that small feet (and I do not mean contracted, just small) are tough, workable feet with wuper concavity (and therefor strength) that support the leg above it well and give fewer problems than big feet, which often try to spread. The horses I have had which have gone barefoot most easily after being in shoes have been the ones with smaller feet. I currently have one big, one medium and one small and they all perform to the same level.
 
Tampa can you show us a sole shot?

Are your mare's frogs in contact with the floor when stood on a hard flat surface?
 
cptrayes said:
This is what I have been trying to say. And my experience is that compared to, say, thoroughbreds or Irish Drafts, you have to be more careful with a Spanish not to have too much starch/sugar and too little work.

Yes you do have to be more careful with a Spanish horse but no more careful than you should be with say a Welsh D


I do not agree with you. Even in late maturing horses the fast growth period is already over at four and the rate of growth from then on, and metabolic need, is much slower.

Although a Spanish horse may have stopped growing by the time it is 6, it is at 10 when their metabolic rate seems to slow, if you are not careful with them then, they can very easily succumb to weight gain and it's associated dangers.



You miss my point, I think. Clearly in shod horses the laminae receive sufficient blood to survive or every shod horse would become a cripple very quickly. But if the blood supply is less than in an unshod horse, a smaller amount of gut toxin will be arriving at the foot and this may be sufficient reduction to prevent laminitis in a marginally affected shod horse. Of course it would be preferable to sort out the gut but some people really are in a position where they are unable to do that, given livery arrangements/work commitments etc.
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I did not miss your point, I just don't agree. As for people being unable to sort out the gut - it is simple, lots of low energy fibre and a probiotic in every feed, whatever the livery/work arrangements (you would probably have to buy the probiotic but any good yard would not refuse to feed it) the horse still needs caring for on a daily basis
 
Originally Posted by Amaranta
Yes you do have to be more careful with a Spanish horse but no more careful than you should be with say a Welsh D
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Hallelujah we agree at last. And Cleveland Bays. And one or two others. No one is "getting at" Spanish horses here Amaranta, but you keep replying as if we are.


Originally Posted by Amaranta
Although a Spanish horse may have stopped growing by the time it is 6, it is at 10 when their metabolic rate seems to slow, if you are not careful with them then, they can very easily succumb to weight gain and it's associated dangers.
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I'm sure it slows again as they get older, as humans do, but I disagree with you entirely if you do not think that any horse's metabolic needs drop when they reach sufficient maturity to be ridden. I suspect yours are ridden more than most and their feed is matched more carefully to their work than most, and that you may not have noticed this effect because you are not an average owner in an average livery stable.


Originally Posted by Amaranta
As for people being unable to sort out the gut - it is simple, lots of low energy fibre and a probiotic in every feed, whatever the livery/work arrangements (you would probably have to buy the probiotic but any good yard would not refuse to feed it) the horse still needs caring for on a daily basis
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It is NOT simple for people in livery yards where the turnout may be rich ryegrass designed for a dairy herd, where they are not allowed to strip graze, where no starvation paddock is available, where the only turnout is daytime or 24/7, where the owner works and can't get enough exercise into the horse to keep its weight right down etc etc

For many horses and owners it is grossly simplistic to suggest that they "just" need to feed plenty of fibre and a probiotic. Lucy Priory who posts on here is in livery and has recently had the latest batch of hay analysed. It is well over 30% soluble carbohydrates and that is pure poison for her EPSM mare. Not all yards welcome a bathful of soaking hay outside every stable, either, and many owners are forced to feed what they are given as regards forage.

You and I obviously have the luxury of looking after our own horses. Not everyone is so lucky and for them life with a carbohydrate sensitive horse is far from simple.
 
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cptrayes said:
Hallelujah we agree at last. And Cleveland Bays. And one or two others. No one is "getting at" Spanish horses here Amaranta, but you keep replying as if we are.




I'm sure it slows again as they get older, as humans do, but I disagree with you entirely if you do not think that any horse's metabolic needs drop when they reach sufficient maturity to be ridden. I suspect yours are ridden more than most and their feed is matched more carefully to their work than most, and that you may not have noticed this effect because you are not an average owner in an average livery stable.




It is NOT simple for people in livery yards where the turnout may be rich ryegrass designed for a dairy herd, where they are not allowed to strip graze, where no starvation paddock is available, where the only turnout is daytime, where the owner works and can't get enough exercise into the horse to keep its weight right down etc etc

For many horses and owners it is grossly simplistic to suggest that they "just" need to feed plenty of fibre and a probiotic. Lucy Priory who posts on here is in livery and has recently had the latest batch of hay analysed. It is well over 30% soluble carbohydrates and that is pure poison for her EPSM mare. Not all yards welcome a bathful of soaking hay outside every stable, either, and many owners are forced to feed what they are given as regards forage.

You and I obviously have the luxury of looking after our own horses. Not everyone is so lucky and for them life with a carbohydrate sensitive horse is far from simple.
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This appears to be a thinly veiled insult towards anybody who doesn't manage their horses the way you do.

Do you realise how condescending you are, or are you genuinely ignorant to how you come across :confused:?
 
quirky said:
This appears to be a thinly veiled insult towards anybody who doesn't manage their horses the way you do.
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How the hell do you get to that conclusion? I am defending people who do not have my luck and Amaranta's facilities and expertise!

quirky said:
Do you realise how condescending you are, or are you genuinely ignorant to how you come across :confused:?
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Quirky I couldn't care less for your personal opinion of my posting style, but please feel free to comment again and give me a laugh :D

Have you any advice for the original poster, or anything to add to this discussion, or did you just join to sling a bit of mud about?
 
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