Those with laminitics

[LMR]

Just need a little bit advice and I am interested in what you guys do. My gelding suffered an acute attack about 18 months ago, he has recovered well apart from a small attack in feb this year which we put down to a new farrier getting his foot balance wrong. He is sound now and his feet are looking really good. He is underweight though and has always struggled with keeping weight on over the winter.

I soak his hay for approx 12 hours. I understand that a few nutrients as well as sugar will have been removed from the hay. Would it be ok to soak for less time or can he any unsoaked hay? Say one unsoaked haynet a day?

I am going to speak to my vet in the next couple days but I am interested in what others do. He is not seriously underweight, but his ribs are visible. He is happy and healthy but I am going to start bringing him back into work in the new year and dont want him to drop anymore weight.

 

[popularfurball]

Would personally put him on micronised linseed rather than risk sugars in hay - though tbh I only soak hay if it was an acute attack - dry hay is normal on our house Te rest of the time.

 

[Oberon]

Look at Dr Chris Pollitt's research on laminitis. He has found that dietry laminitis is caused by toxins from the hind gut.

The hind gut is a vat filled with fermenting bacteria.

If the horse goes too long without feed - the bacteria die. If the horse has a toxic overload - the bacteria die. If the horse has too much sugar in the diet - the bacteria die.

The rotting corpses of the bacteria releases toxins in the bloodstream and (for some reason) they attack the laminae (connection of hoof wall to coffin bone) and weakens this connection. Thus the hoof wall can peel away from the bone = laminitis.

The secret to keeping a laminitic prone horse happy is to keep those bacteria happy.

Feed low sugar and starch. Feed yeasts like yea-sacc or brewers yeast. Feed charcoal if there is a danger (spring and autumn). Feed minerals (copper and iron are often low in grazing but really necessary for metabolism).

Dr Kathryn Watt's site is also a good resource (even if it's American - they have the same issues we do) http://www.safergrass.org/Safergrass Store.html

 

[ameeyal]

Why dont you have your hay tested, dobson and horral do it for £7.50 if it comes back between 7-8 sugers then i wouldnt soak, they say if its over 10% then soak, i got away with giving my cushings horse one dry hay net a day.

 

[be positive]

It is the sugar that is important to be reduced by soaking, can you give him some more to help put the weight on rather than reducing the soaking.
Oil in his feed or linseed would help with his weight in a safe way, a good vitamin and mineral supplement will help balance the loss of nutrients in the hay.

 

[SamandMonty]

I'm following this with interest. My old boy (somewhere between 28-30) is on constant lami watch as has had attack two years ago and is very flat soled.. which for some reason makes him more prone? Farrier did explain but was lost in the pit that is my brain. He's always been a very good doer, ie only looks at a blade of grass and expands at ridiculus pace. This year he's looked really good, his weight is perfect but now a bit worried about him dropping even more weight. I know most of it is muscle wastage as he's the retired boss of the yard but for the first time ever i can see rib through the fluff and his hips are getting a bit more prominant. He's on a really high fibre diet fed a small mix of Fast fibre, L-mix and high Fibre nuts twice a day and has his hay soaked for an hour as little bugger refuses to eat it dry. When I had Allen and Page out earlier in the year they suggested Linseed Oil if i was concerned about his weight to pleased to see others feeding it to laminitics.

Stumbling in the dark a bit though as I've always had weight off problems not weight on.

Sam

 

[LMR]

Thanks for your replies.. its a constant worry. We don't know what caused the laminitis, he is not your typical laminitic. He is on a high fibre, low sugar and low starch diet. I have just started feeding him micronised linseed so will see if that makes a difference. He get adlib soaked hay so is getting as much as he will eat. He is also out for 4 hours a day with a muzzle on.

How much linseed do you feed?

Will definitely get my hay analysed but I was told this was only accurate for each bale. It can vary quite alot between bales (not sure if this is true). Also I thought sugar was to be less than 5%

 

[SamandMonty]

He's only started on the oil this week.. so cant see difference yet but he doesn't have much. I've got one of the scoops from the NAF supplements and so he has a scoop.. which i think is between 30-50ml.

 

[Oberon]

I'm following this with interest. My old boy (somewhere between 28-30) is on constant lami watch as has had attack two years ago and is very flat soled.. which for some reason makes him more prone? Farrier did explain but was lost in the pit that is my brain.Sam

Flat (and thin) soles is often a symptom of diet and too much sugar.

You can see healthy BF hooves with nice concavity go pancake flat at springtime when exposed to the high sugar grass.

If his white line is thicker than a credit card - that is also a dietry red flag too.

I'm sure you've considered Cushings

If he lacks muscle, you can always add lysine to the diet or just simple whey protein (like the bodybuilders use) to cover him for limiting amino acids.
I feed lysine to my 25 year old.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-lysine-...r_Equipment&hash=item3f0d2ee4a1#ht_1395wt_905

 

[be positive]

If he is not a typical laminitic have you tested for IR or cushings, you do not always get classic symptoms.

 

[brighteyes]

Cushing's would be my first suspicion. If you don't get tested for it, treat your horse as though he has it. Won't do any harm. Join/look at Yahoo Groups 'themetabolichorse' - stacks of advice, info and real life situations on there.

 

[SamandMonty]

Have consulted with my vet before on the Cushings possiblility but its definatley Laminitis. No other signs of Cushings.. particiularly not the hair retention!! Lol.

Will keep the whey protein in mind. I'm probably worrying too much but just have a feeling when all the fur eventually goes next year he'll look like a hat rack. He's happy in himself and full of mischief. He'll probably put some weight back on though in the spring.

He's always had flat soles ever since I bought him 14 years ago.. Good strong feet just flat, dont think he'd had particularly too much attention paid to him before then

 

[amandap]

Have a look here, the emergency diet includes washed (before and after soaking) unmolassed beet which if it suits him could help with his weight along with the micronized linseed.
The site also covers Cushings and IR. Some Cushings horses have no real symptoms except laminitis I believe. http://www.ecirhorse.com/index.php/laminitis

Exercise is important too so long as he isn't sore. A good/active walk is the best I believe.

 

[SamandMonty]

Exercise is important too so long as he isn't sore. A good/active walk is the best I believe.

My 6 year old likes to give him plenty of exercise!! Think thats how he's lost the extra weight in the last couple of years... its not manic chasing but just when he settles to a nice patch of grass along comes Monty and moves him around a bit. He does go out for short walks in the better weather and even went swimming in the sea last year!!

 

[amandap]

My 6 year old likes to give him plenty of exercise!! Think thats how he's lost the extra weight in the last couple of years... its not manic chasing but just when he settles to a nice patch of grass along comes Monty and moves him around a bit. He does go out for short walks in the better weather and even went swimming in the sea last year!!

It's great when you have an equine motivator.

 

[Spellbound13]

To be honest with you, I wouldnt be too concerned about him being a little ribby, you would want this really as he will put weight on in summer when he gets on the grass.


There is so much infomation out there about lammy.

My horse got it almost 5 years ago from toxic shock poisoning, basically he was poisened and his liver and kidneys started to fail, he then got lammy from the toxins and the stress.

He constantly got lammy in summer, no matter what we did, but in winter he was fine. He was only 6 at the time so no chance of cushings even thought this was tested for and showed a high courtazone (cant spell it) level.

Sadly after another 2 attacks this summer and the onset of muscle wastage problems in his hind legs, his back feet couldnt handle the stress anymore and he had a severe attack in both back hooves (at the same time as both front feet), within 1 week of his first back hoof developing lammy, his secand had and we had him euthanised 4 days after this diagnosis, the poor baby had fought it for 4 and a half years and his body was deteriated beyond repair.
this time his soul had gone and so had the twinkle in his eyes.
He had just turned 11 years old

Aften new reasearch about insulant resistance, it was thought he suffered with this as it was grass/sugar related, and only real way to prevent him getting it was to not turn him out on grass EVER.


So despite the most routhless of management we couldnt really have prevented him getting it each year.
He was already retired and permernantly lame from all the years of lammy and stress on his legs and his now muscle wastage, what life would he have being on box rest?!


BUT this isnt how it always ends, most recover brilliantly and are never affected by it again.


Good luck with your boy, but try everything you can before its too late!

 

[LMR]

To be honest with you, I wouldnt be too concerned about him being a little ribby, you would want this really as he will put weight on in summer when he gets on the grass.


There is so much infomation out there about lammy.

My horse got it almost 5 years ago from toxic shock poisoning, basically he was poisened and his liver and kidneys started to fail, he then got lammy from the toxins and the stress.

He constantly got lammy in summer, no matter what we did, but in winter he was fine. He was only 6 at the time so no chance of cushings even thought this was tested for and showed a high courtazone (cant spell it) level.

Sadly after another 2 attacks this summer and the onset of muscle wastage problems in his hind legs, his back feet couldnt handle the stress anymore and he had a severe attack in both back hooves (at the same time as both front feet), within 1 week of his first back hoof developing lammy, his secand had and we had him euthanised 4 days after this diagnosis, the poor baby had fought it for 4 and a half years and his body was deteriated beyond repair.
this time his soul had gone and so had the twinkle in his eyes.
He had just turned 11 years old

Aften new reasearch about insulant resistance, it was thought he suffered with this as it was grass/sugar related, and only real way to prevent him getting it was to not turn him out on grass EVER.


So despite the most routhless of management we couldnt really have prevented him getting it each year.
He was already retired and permernantly lame from all the years of lammy and stress on his legs and his now muscle wastage, what life would he have being on box rest?!


BUT this isnt how it always ends, most recover brilliantly and are never affected by it again.


Good luck with your boy, but try everything you can before its too late!

Really sorry to hear about your boy. Lami is such a horrible thing. I didn't realise how much they suffered with it until my boy went down with it. I am trying to be as strict as possible with his routine and he does look quite good, his coat is shiny and he is still as cheeky as ever. I would just like a bit more weight on him. im probably worrying too much. I just dont want him to lose anymore weight with coming back into work but at the same time don't want another attack

 

[LMR]

Have a look here, the emergency diet includes washed (before and after soaking) unmolassed beet which if it suits him could help with his weight along with the micronized linseed.
The site also covers Cushings and IR. Some Cushings horses have no real symptoms except laminitis I believe. http://www.ecirhorse.com/index.php/laminitis

Exercise is important too so long as he isn't sore. A good/active walk is the best I believe.

He is sound and has been for the past 6 months. our vet advised us to give him more time off just to let his feet grow. I am going to start handwalking him in the new year then slowly bring him into work.

I will have a look at the website he is currently on speedibeet but will only eat so much of it (little princess he is).

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Q. HOW DOES FEED CAUSE LAMINITIS?
A. Feeds rich in starches and sugars can cause a digestive upset
in the large intestine. These energy rich nutrients are usually
digested in the small bowel, however if eaten in excess they spill
over into the large bowel, where they are fermented by certain
species of bacteria. This results in production of lactic acid, with
many normal bacteria, which live in the bowel to digest fi bre being
unable to survive the acid conditions. As the acid builds up and
bacteria die, toxic substances known as ‘endotoxins’ are released
and enter the bloodstream. It is these endotoxins which are
thought to damage the laminae, either by a direct toxic effect or by
altering the blood flow to the hooves.

I like this note leaflet on founderguard web site has pictures and loads information


http://www.founderguard.uk.com/images/D532 - Founderguard Dl 3b.pdf












.We have lami , got in april being a rocky road for us . ups and downs we are coming up to 6 months box rest she is amazing still has a sparkle, just stoped poulticing this abscess though hardly any came out of coronet. She is on anti biotics for the inflammation of the bone been on them a week now , went more hobbly tues eve,

We need farrier now to trim heals down and remove the toe.Vet was happy yesterday with her before the long weekend .




I am thinking positive.which is what the vet suggested , its hard to think of her in a field again




and want some ideas for future turn out , I am trying to decide either for example


2 hours our grazing in summer without muzzle
or 4 hours with

going to ask vet but any 1 else feel free.


she has never worn a muzzle. the lami was 90% feed overload as her grazing has been same fertilized since 1996 never a problem .

 

[Tammytoo]

Have consulted with my vet before on the Cushings possiblility but its definatley Laminitis. No other signs of Cushings.. particiularly not the hair retention!! Lol.

Our cushings pony showed no symptems at all, no curly coat or hair retention, no weight loss, no depression, no sweating - just a sudden, unexplained lami attack. Vet didn't even suggest cushings but a friend noticed that the hollows above her eyes were puffy (a clear sign) so had her tested, which showed she had cushings.

After 2/3 weeks on Pergolide and some good remedial farriery she was walking sound. It took a few months before she was rideable but we have never looked back. I do have to be very strict with her grazing, 8 hours on a tiny turnout paddock, as she has always been a very good doer!

 

[Oberon]

and want some ideas for future turn out , I am trying to decide either for example


2 hours our grazing in summer without muzzle
or 4 hours with

going to ask vet but any 1 else feel free.


she has never worn a muzzle. the lami was 90% feed overload as her grazing has been same fertilized since 1996 never a problem .

There was a study recently where they concluded that a horse on restricted access to grazing actually ate more than those allowed free access to it.

With this in mind, I think two hour's turnout without a muzzle would be very dangerous.

Muzzles have been found to work extremely well - humans find them more distressing than the horses do.

I think muzzled turnout in the evening would be the safest option.

The Safergrass website is a good resource....much better than the paltry offerings from the Laminitis Trust IMO.

 

[LucyPriory]

Sorry not read all the posts - but very important to understand causal factor for each case of lamintis before making care decisions.

For example if IR - then any grazing may be too much. If simple overweight then not so dangerous.

And for some horses they can tolerate some grass but not even a small quantity of haylage.

For mine own - her hay is more likely to tip her over the edge than winter grass - so even in the coldest weather I soak it for at least 12 hours and then rinse it very thoroughly. She can't do haylage either - even the stuff with the Laminitis Trust badge on. But then I have found a number of laminitics which can't manage the products with that logo. Including my old and current horses.

If you want to see the inside of a very laminitic hoof you can see one here:http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/laminitis-what-is-going-on-inside.html

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

The reason why i ask is she is like her son who i tried a muzzle on just to stop him chewing trees, he found the nearest tree and fence and rubbed and scraped till he got it off, a 39 pounds muzzle totally trashed.
hse has the mauve haylage 1 section a night 3-1 with soaked hay as she lost all her weight by stopping eating any hay - so now we do this.

 

[SamandMonty]

To be honest with you, I wouldnt be too concerned about him being a little ribby, you would want this really as he will put weight on in summer when he gets on the grass.


There is so much infomation out there about lammy.

My horse got it almost 5 years ago from toxic shock poisoning, basically he was poisened and his liver and kidneys started to fail, he then got lammy from the toxins and the stress.

He constantly got lammy in summer, no matter what we did, but in winter he was fine. He was only 6 at the time so no chance of cushings even thought this was tested for and showed a high courtazone (cant spell it) level.

Sadly after another 2 attacks this summer and the onset of muscle wastage problems in his hind legs, his back feet couldnt handle the stress anymore and he had a severe attack in both back hooves (at the same time as both front feet), within 1 week of his first back hoof developing lammy, his secand had and we had him euthanised 4 days after this diagnosis, the poor baby had fought it for 4 and a half years and his body was deteriated beyond repair.
this time his soul had gone and so had the twinkle in his eyes.
He had just turned 11 years old

Aften new reasearch about insulant resistance, it was thought he suffered with this as it was grass/sugar related, and only real way to prevent him getting it was to not turn him out on grass EVER.


So despite the most routhless of management we couldnt really have prevented him getting it each year.
He was already retired and permernantly lame from all the years of lammy and stress on his legs and his now muscle wastage, what life would he have being on box rest?!


BUT this isnt how it always ends, most recover brilliantly and are never affected by it again.


Good luck with your boy, but try everything you can before its too late!

Sorry so to hear about you boy.. such a horrid crippling disease.
I'm probably just being paranoid as he's always carried weight and suddenly its not there anymore.. feeling let alone seeing rib is a bit of a shock lol.
Since his intial attack about 5 years ago he's never had it again.. but were on constant watch.. especially with him as he also has arithis (pushing 30 years old) so is on very low dose of bute to keep him comfortable, so it would take longer for the lammy to show.

He's as happy as a pig in poo though.. Cheeky, full of life and constantly looking for ways to cause trouble. We're a long way from giving up hope on him... we've always thought he'll out live us all, wishful thinking i know, but he's still got his spark and twinkle.

xx

 

[SamandMonty]

The reason why i ask is she is like her son who i tried a muzzle on just to stop him chewing trees, he found the nearest tree and fence and rubbed and scraped till he got it off, a 39 pounds muzzle totally trashed.
hse has the mauve haylage 1 section a night 3-1 with soaked hay as she lost all her weight by stopping eating any hay - so now we do this.

I agree with Oberon with muzzle is much safer than without..
Mine tried the guilt trip for about 2 hours but then realised they could eat through them and never had a issue since.

 

[Janesomerset]

Our pony wears a muzzle all year round and pushes his nose into it now because he knows he is going out in the field. If he didn't wear it, he would eat sticky burr plants, brambles, leaves etc. as well as grass and be crippled within a week. If you have that sort of greenery round your paddock, I would opt for more turnout with a muzzle rather than a shorter turnout without one. Wishing you the very best.

 

[paddy555]

I will have a look at the website he is currently on speedibeet but will only eat so much of it (little princess he is).

some horses don't like speedibeet but you can use ordinary molassed sugar beet and simply wash the molasses out of it. That way it is very clean. To get them to eat it mix half a pound of spillers hi fibre nuts which have been soaked into the washed sugar beet. That way you can get a fair bit of beet pulp into the horse (along with any supplements)

 

[BlackVelvet]

I would get blood tests done in case, so you know how to treat it,

Treating laminitis successfully isnt just about soaking hay, its a completely different lifestyle. My ID developed lami in June, caused by IR, know his lifestyle has had to completely change, he needs ALOT more exercise and his diet has had to alter so he continues to stay fit. Its a horrible illness for them to get as once then develop it once they will always be prone to it,

 

[brucea]

Just remember - if you soak the hay to smithereens, you're getting out the soluble sugars, yes, but you are also gettign rid of all the soluble minerals and other good things.

So you will need to broad spectrum supplement at least with Mg, Cu, Zn, Na, possibly Ca, Se possibly P

And provide a source of Vit C and E at least.

Linseed, Brewer's yeast all good.

Laminitics have the same high nutritional requirements as other horses, they just need little sugar and starch.

 

[moorman]

One thing I have been able to do with some of my Laminitic clients is:
Get them to go to the hay producer/farmer long before the hay season, ask if they have fields that contain grasses are suitable for laminitics (mainly old course varieties if possible ) then they ask if the field can not have any artificial fertilizer on it, then, can be cut late (after the seeds have shed) then, and most important ask if the bails can be SMALL and VERY LOOSE
This produces the best laminitic hay you will ever see:
Late, first cut lose bailed hay carries on making when in the barn like the old ricks did.
You do NOT soak this hay and you will find fed through a nibblenet or something similar you will have no worries about the amount eaten.
I have put together several teams of owners who do this and now which gives them some buying power and are now finding it easier to get farmers who are willing to grow this hay.
They make more money but you get better hay with no soaking or waste, it’s a win win!!