Those with nutritional knowledge … help

[motherof2beasts!]

My cob is 15 hh and in light work, we hack 3-7 miles 2 or 3 times a week, lunge once or twice and weekly lesson. He is on the chubby side and it has been a long journey to get his weight down , vet looked at his sparse field and was 100% sure he must have EMS, he didn’t.

feed wise he has hay which is soaked for 6/7 hours , the grass (on sand and sparse) , he was honeychop light and healthy chaff to carry supplements. He has asthma so has ventilate supplement and thunderbrooks daily essentials as balancer. I also add salt and NAF super flex.

I have been reading about vitamins good for horses with asthma and see vitamin e is usually mentioned, does anyone use this and could point me in right direction ?!

I know TB is not popular on here but he kicked the forage plus balancer everywhere in a rage. I did use simple systems meta slim but cost of living and it going up to £73 a bag I just can’t

just to add more confusion he doesn’t have sweet itch but can get very itchy if fed alfalfa so I try to avoid that.

 

[SEL]

Thunderbrooks used to supply natural vitamin E so if you are buying from them anyway its worth seeing if they still stock it. Otherwise Forageplus and Progressive earth usually have it but I believe there are some stock issues in the UK at the moment.

I do feed it to my little cob with asthma but really couldn't tell you if it helps or not.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

One of my horses gets breathing issues and often the odd cough vitamin E definitely helps I feed him progressive earth pro balance at the moment which has the recommended dose in it.

Magnesium oxide can help with weight loss it's relatively cheap to feed so maybe consider adding that to his feed.

 

[PurBee]

Were insulin levels checked?

If on honey chop….or any other commercial straw bagged chaffy feed, i’d stop that and switch to emerald green grass pellets or their bagged hay.
Reasons are fairly complex to explain fully but the link between pancreatic efficiency/function altering due to wheat/barely/rape crop dessicant sprays, have been shown to be considerable in rat studies.
Thus any non-organic barley or wheat straw products needs to be given a wide berth if dealing with a horse with a wide girth!

It sounds as if he's just getting the honeychop for mineral to mix in, so that shouldnt be an issue. But if you are also feeding a haynet full of commercial non-organic straw i’d stop that and just give soaked hay.

Another nutritional fundamental with weight issues, whether horse too fat or skinny, is to do a round of some mixed pre/probiotics. (As yours has astma and alfalfa allergy i would be more inclined to do probiotics course, as gut health + immunity are linked)
If the gut bacteria population are unhealthy/inadequate, then the nutrition going into the mouth cannot be processed as efficiently.

Magnesium in TB balancer ive never looked at. You want 10g daily just maintenance, more if horse is worked, like your Is. The amount of mag in forage..hay, straw, grass is negligible compared to their daily needs.
Magnesium is essential for the metabolism to create ATP energy molecules - which create an alert, but calm energised horse. Without magnesium the body of mammals will hold excess sugars, which the liver converts to fat. If a horse has low magnesium, it can be fed literally sugar and the body wont be able to couple saccharides with magnesium to make ATP. All it will do is be fat and not as athletic as it could be.

ATP is the primary energy molecule of the body, in charge of all energetic processes, from blinking the eyelid of the horse, to enabling them to jump. If they are low in mag physically theyre likely to hold weight easily, and wont be as athletic, calm and athletic. There’s plenty of hot fuzzheads athletic horses running on adrenaline and are in a cachexic metabolic state. But a healthy horse gets calm athletic energy from sugars and magnesium, rather than adrenaline.

To get an idea about magnesium levels, is his energy/will/drive when ridden to trot/canter natural and very eager, without jumpy jittery energy? = adequate magnesium.
Or does he have to be given plenty of riding aids encouragement to maintain pace? A plodder? Is he silly spooky? Jittery rushed riding gates driven by adrenaline? = lack of magnesium.
(as a very rough guide)

Hormone conditions will throw the metabolism out aswell. Agricultural dessicants and herbicides show in studies to be endocrine disruptors so non-organic straw best avoided in any endocrine challenged horse.

vit E is great for the immune system and studies show benefit to bronchial airways. There’s various tocopherols available, and its thought a mix of them is best - but im unsure if they are available in large equine doses. I’d certainly try E for breathing issues.

Hopefully some thoughts to help you consider some approaches

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Were insulin levels checked?

If on honey chop….or any other commercial straw bagged chaffy feed, i’d stop that and switch to emerald green grass pellets or their bagged hay.
Reasons are fairly complex to explain fully but the link between pancreatic efficiency/function altering due to wheat/barely/rape crop dessicant sprays, have been shown to be considerable in rat studies.
Thus any non-organic barley or wheat straw products needs to be given a wide berth if dealing with a horse with a wide girth!

It sounds as if he's just getting the honeychop for mineral to mix in, so that shouldnt be an issue. But if you are also feeding a haynet full of commercial non-organic straw i’d stop that and just give soaked hay.

Another nutritional fundamental with weight issues, whether horse too fat or skinny, is to do a round of some mixed pre/probiotics. (As yours has astma and alfalfa allergy i would be more inclined to do probiotics course, as gut health + immunity are linked)
If the gut bacteria population are unhealthy/inadequate, then the nutrition going into the mouth cannot be processed as efficiently.

Magnesium in TB balancer ive never looked at. You want 10g daily just maintenance, more if horse is worked, like your Is. The amount of mag in forage..hay, straw, grass is negligible compared to their daily needs.
Magnesium is essential for the metabolism to create ATP energy molecules - which create an alert, but calm energised horse. Without magnesium the body of mammals will hold excess sugars, which the liver converts to fat. If a horse has low magnesium, it can be fed literally sugar and the body wont be able to couple saccharides with magnesium to make ATP. All it will do is be fat and not as athletic as it could be.

ATP is the primary energy molecule of the body, in charge of all energetic processes, from blinking the eyelid of the horse, to enabling them to jump. If they are low in mag physically theyre likely to hold weight easily, and wont be as athletic, calm and athletic. There’s plenty of hot fuzzheads athletic horses running on adrenaline and are in a cachexic metabolic state. But a healthy horse gets calm athletic energy from sugars and magnesium, rather than adrenaline.

To get an idea about magnesium levels, is his energy/will/drive when ridden to trot/canter natural and very eager, without jumpy jittery energy? = adequate magnesium.
Or does he have to be given plenty of riding aids encouragement to maintain pace? A plodder? Is he silly spooky? Jittery rushed riding gates driven by adrenaline? = lack of magnesium.
(as a very rough guide)

Hormone conditions will throw the metabolism out aswell. Agricultural dessicants and herbicides show in studies to be endocrine disruptors so non-organic straw best avoided in any endocrine challenged horse.

vit E is great for the immune system and studies show benefit to bronchial airways. There’s various tocopherols available, and its thought a mix of them is best - but im unsure if they are available in large equine doses. I’d certainly try E for breathing issues.

Hopefully some thoughts to help you consider some approaches

Wow thank you for a very thorough reply ! He did have insulin levels done too all healthy range.

hmmmm behaviour wise he’s pretty forward going without encouragement, but listens well. However big open spaces and anything other than a walk he gets silly/strong.

I’ve had him 2 years and he has lost about 60kgs but it’s been very slow! He has soaked hay , the only straw part is the honey chop to add his supplements too.

I do feed protexin but is there another prebiotic that might be good to consider?

I’ve ordered magnesium oxide and vitamin E.

My horses chiropractor and physio think he’s in proportion as confirmation wise he’s a mixed bag, very bum high at aged 12 and short stumpy front legs ! The vet thinks hes overweight, which he is but not sure what more I can try, if I worked less I would work him harder!

 

[PurBee]

Wow thank you for a very thorough reply ! He did have insulin levels done too all healthy range.

hmmmm behaviour wise he’s pretty forward going without encouragement, but listens well. However big open spaces and anything other than a walk he gets silly/strong.

I’ve had him 2 years and he has lost about 60kgs but it’s been very slow! He has soaked hay , the only straw part is the honey chop to add his supplements too.

I do feed protexin but is there another prebiotic that might be good to consider?

I’ve ordered magnesium oxide and vitamin E.

My horses chiropractor and physio think he’s in proportion as confirmation wise he’s a mixed bag, very bum high at aged 12 and short stumpy front legs ! The vet thinks hes overweight, which he is but not sure what more I can try, if I worked less I would work him harder!

I’ve trialled this prebiotic from equibiome. Its designed from the DNA results of the gut bacteria of thousands of horses. My 2 have had great winter poops with me feeding it sporadically. (. Never thought i’d ever consider seasonal poops to be great until i got horses . My 2 didnt have any overt symptoms to need the prebiotic, but i give gut bacteria sporadically so that their gut gets a helping hand, mostly through winter when theyre not getting such a mix of forage due to minimal grass/plant/bush/tree growth - my prone to being slim in winter 10yr gelding has held weight nicely, and my prone to being rounder 20yr mare has been looking nicely leaner this winter, so it does seem to have helped their opposing winter weight issues)
p.s i have used protexin in the past, like it very much to settle a stressy gut. The prebiotic linked has more strains than protexin so worth trialling for a broader spectrum of bacteria

EquiBiome Prebiotic | equibiome

EquiBiome Prebiotic. Promoting a healthy normal microbiome, the only prebiotic that has been developed using information from the study of the 16s rRNA sequencing of the gut bacteria populations of 1,000’s of horses. Recommended for all horses. The EquiBiome prebiotic is formulated to improve...

www.equibiome.org

If insulin levels are good, then magnesium is worth a try. The TB daily essentials gives 4g magnesium if you feed 50g per day of that balancer. Thats about 6g less than RDA.
So you could try a top-up of a heaped teaspoon (5-6g) (Initially just add a level teaspoon for 3-4 days, then increase to a heaped spoon on day 5, to gradually increase the dose)
He doesnt sound behaviourally a total loon, so i imagine he’s not completely low on mag, and a gradual increase trial of additional mag is worth it.

My mare lost her shoulder and top tail weird fatpads (she wasnt that fat in other places to warrant those fat pads) when i started on extra magnesium.

Another aspect to consider trying, is iodine. It’s usually under-supplemented in lots of bagged feeds. The TB balancer has 2mg. The minimum RDA for a 500kg horse maintenance is 3.5-4.5. More for a horse in work. Iodine is essential for metabolism to work correctly too as it is essential for the thyroid gland to produce thyroid hormones, which go around the body using nutrition from body stores. Without adequate iodine stores in the thyroid, the mammalian body become hypo-thyroid and easily holds weight/gains weight.

(This is why humans and animals can eat hardly anything and still not shift weight. They can exercise like crazy and still not shift weight. There’s some fundamental nutritional aspects that are absolutely vital to be taken in by diet to ensure the smooth operation of the endocrine and metabolism. These 2 are iodine (thyroid =metabolism) and magnesium (ATP production + usage of body fat/sugar stores) mainly primarily.
The adage of calories in and exercise = calories out = weight loss, is flawed if base mineral nutrition isnt there.)

A cheap way to get iodine for horses with a host of other useful trace minerals is to get a bag of ground seaweed. My horses really love seaweed. Its not something we (usually) have to hide in feed, as most enjoy its taste. They get just a level tablespoon…not much.
I get a 25kg sack for about 25 euro - it easily lasts a year for both my horses. You’d want to add another 5mg as he is in work. The brand you find should say how many grams of seaweed delivers mg amount of iodine. They all can differ.

Just to eliminate any other aspects of diet inhibiting his weight loss i’d swap the small amount of honeychop for quick soak speedibeet. It’s mostly just fibre and to,erated by most. Or just plain grass pellets from emerald green if beetpulp is an issue for him.
Honeychop add oils too and other questionable ingredients/herbs - garlic is a big No for gut health for instance.

Just checked - honeychop add linseed and rapeseed oil to their chaffy mixes - which, to be frank, will be oxidised oils, as oils are very difficult to keep from oxidising without correct storage of oxygen-less environment and cold temperatures. Having been mixed in with chaff and bag-filled with oxygen and stacked in warehouses/feedstores, they cannot retain freshness.
This is a consideration for your boy because he has astma and needs all the vitamin E his diet provides. Vitamin e is an antioxidant, so that will get used-up dealing with the oxidised oils in his bowl feed (granted, its just a bowlful but still an amount).
Vitamin A, C, E and D are antioxidants, so any feed oils in the diet that are not cold and fresh will oxidise and use up these valuable antioxidants in his diet. Anti-oxidants which are needed by the metabolism to ‘clean-up’ natural metabolic oxidant by-products.
As you can eliminate this portion he gets easily, its best to rule-out all potential dietary hinderances.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Thank you , I know a thing or too about thyroids mine was overactive so I was a skinny energetic person who ate tons, till they destroyed my thyroid so now tired, rounder and don’t eat much .

I have ordered emerald green grass nuts, which I’m sure he’ll be thrilled with he’s not a huge fan of lite and healthy !

I think I’ll order some seaweed too!

his stomach has always been pretty good apart from when he ate tons of sweet chestnuts in fact he poops a lot. Most at my yard do 3/4 overnight he easily does double.

 

[PurBee]

Thank you , I know a thing or too about thyroids mine was overactive so I was a skinny energetic person who ate tons, till they destroyed my thyroid so now tired, rounder and don’t eat much .

I have ordered emerald green grass nuts, which I’m sure he’ll be thrilled with he’s not a huge fan of lite and healthy !

I think I’ll order some seaweed too!

his stomach has always been pretty good apart from when he ate tons of sweet chestnuts in fact he poops a lot. Most at my yard do 3/4 overnight he easily does double.

Sorry to hear about your thyroid troubles. The older treatments for endocrine gland disorders often risked the gland itself, and some of these treatments are still in use today.
Have you heard of ‘natural desiccated thyroid’ treatment to replace the full spectrum of thyroid hormones? In the USA its known as ‘Armour’ natural dessicant thyroid (NDT) prescription medication. Advocates of the natural hormones say its preferred to the synthetic T1/T2 medications. I dont know if its available EU/UK or whether over here there are different branded NDT medications.
(i have the book “stop the thyroid madness” which is extremely interesting and details all the aspects of thyroid health and its conditions, supplements to help metabolism etc - i was going to be finding it a new home having slimmed down my book collection, so if youre interested in it, pm me and ill post it out to you)

The EG grass nuts are a good source as its tall fescue which isnt a super high sugary grass, unlike ryegrass, and quite fibre-heavy. I have that grass growing here wild, and its left last by horses and deer in favour of higher sugar grass tips.

Hearing he poops double to the other horses it interesting. It would be interesting to see if that changes with the other dietary alterations, and broad-spectrum prebiotic, if you try that.