Those with sycamore issues....

[L&M]

To what extent do you 'live' with the risk?

The saplings seem worse than ever this year and despite constant monitoring and pulling, each day more come through and inevitably we miss some, so am trying not too panic and pull the horses off the pasture completely.

Common sense says that there is plenty of grass in the field, they also get supplemented with haylage twice a day and both are in their teens, so at lesser risk, and that we are picking what we see - but still finding it hard to sleep at night worrying about it.

How does everyone else deal with the 'risk', bar moving to land without sycamore, which for us is not an option.....?

 

[rhf]

Hi, I am in a similar situation - I moved to a yard to get sole paddock use for another issue, and come October, down floated loads of sycamore leaves. I have researched the issue a lot - the little research that has been done seems to come from Liege in Belgium - and had leaves and seeds tested at Royal Vet College, London. The advice given for "low, medium and high" results was all broadly similar, ie stay away. My results were very low, however the field has old and young sycamore trees, and the concentration is supposed to be much higher in young ones than old. I picked from all over the paddock, but have no idea which trees they came from, so have continued to tread cautiously, separating off areas immediately below the trees, making sure all areas are evenly grazed down so that I can see what is there, and picked up vast numbers of seeds and leaves over the winter. My queries are:
1. I have deduced that seeds have 3x HGA concentration (per gm) than leaves. Has anyone worked out how the concentration in seedlings compare with the seeds? Also has anyone worked out whether seedlings or seeds are most likely to be ingested by a horse?
2. This year I am still picking up fresh seeds at the end of February, which would suggest that the December - February 'safe period' is definitely not safe. The research (see attached) does show concentrated periods of case reports, but this could be due to differing weather driven practice - eg owners trying to keep their horses at grass for as long as possible going into winter. Is this a unique thing this year with the mild Autumn, or do the seeds loose toxicity following cold weather?
All in all, I do like the yard and the low test results are reassuring, but any help with working out how to make reasonably sure we will be ok, or if moving is the only option, would be much appreciated. She is in good spirits at the moment!!
The Liege Uni FAQ can be found at :
https://orbi.uliege.be/bitstream/2268/244828/1/2020-Votion-Animals-FAQs.pdf

 

[L&M]

We spotted our first seedling at the weekend........

 

[Lucky Snowball]

We have cut down some of the trees but loads more still to go. Currently using that field for hay rather than grazing.

 

[Ratface]

This has reminded me of a sad event.
Many years (20+) ago, I sold a beautiful BOGOF yearling to a woman who was thought of as an experienced, responsible and caring horse owner.
This woman kept Bogofski and her pony at the same well-managed yard that B's dam and I stabled at. All was going well with her, pony and B.
A year later, there they were - gone. No notice. Vanished and no one saw the going of them. B's owner had also done a moonlight flit from home address.
Two years later, having moved B's dam to a yard several miles away just after the B+1+owner disappearance, I met someone still stabling there. They told me that B had been t/o in a field with sycamore trees in it and had died. Pony also dead. B alleged to have died from colic. Pony from old age. Pony would have been 10. Owner of both now "moved away". No forwarding address.
I sincerely hope that I never see her ever again. If I do, I shall walk away.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’m really happy we don’t have any here at home as I’d be a nervous wreck.
However current work have lots, their opinion when I asked was that they have had horses there for twenty plus years with no problem. They do nothing at all, no clearing or trying to keep the horses away.
Another yard I know has pretty much the same kind of attitude and they have had a few youngsters aswell as old horses. Again they do nothing and appear to get away with it.

 

[L&M]

We have cut down some of the trees but loads more still to go. Currently using that field for hay rather than grazing.

We have taken down approx half of ours too.....will be interesting to see what sapling 'crop' we have come spring.

 

[L&M]

I’m really happy we don’t have any here at home as I’d be a nervous wreck.
However current work have lots, their opinion when I asked was that they have had horses there for twenty plus years with no problem. They do nothing at all, no clearing or trying to keep the horses away.
Another yard I know has pretty much the same kind of attitude and they have had a few youngsters aswell as old horses. Again they do nothing and appear to get away with it.

Having lost a youngster to sycamore poisoning, I find that attitude worrying.........having said that, the ground he was on had been grazed by multiple horses for 30 yrs with no issues so can see why people may be complacent.

 

[laura_nash]

We've cut down a lot, all the overhanging ones and those on the side where the prevailing wind blows them into the field. It has made a huge difference.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Having lost a youngster to sycamore poisoning, I find that attitude worrying.........having said that, the ground he was on had been grazed by multiple horses for 30 yrs with no issues so can see why people may be complacent.

It’s terrifying. Both lovely places but no horse of mine would ever go there just incase. Sorry about your loss

 

[Sir barnaby]

We have a small summer paddock with sycamore trees in, I strip graze so am able to rake any leaves/seeds up on a daily bases, have had them all cut back and electric fence in front off them. It’s worse after a very windy day towards the end of summer so spend a lot of time raking up, one has been blown down in winds so one less to worry about. To many to remove I’m just vigilant, I think I read somewhere that the horses have to ingest a lot like acorns and only eat them if there is nothing else so I’m just careful give good strip of grass and put some hay out all summer too

 

[PurBee]

I once got a Pallet of haylage from a reputable company loaded with sycamore seeds /leaves and small branches holding lots of seeds. Must have been a windy summer to have blown off the end branches with clumps of seeds still connected and end up in the haylage crop.

That caused me to research the toxicity of sycamore and stumbled upon similar research that poster rhf mentioned. Without testing there’s no knowing if levels of toxin are low,med,high….and weather conditions/time of year impact levels etc, with the resounding advice being to keep clear of them.

If i had sycamore trees, unless extremely rare examples of large old trees, i’d take them down. Remove the lot. Especially on a farm/yard where horses/cattle are likely to always graze in the future too. There’s no point in having grazing surrounded with the added stress of known toxins, to an already challenging job of keeping animals healthy.

It’s likely that horses that have grazed beneath sycamore trees for 20+ yrs without issues, have unknowingly suffered as colic is a very common cause of toxin death and oftentimes the true causal factor of that colic never known, just the nature of colic described, i.e compaction.

Cut the trees down for peace of mind for now and the future, would be my advice. I consider sycamore much worse than oak!

If its not your land, and the owner is not keen to remove the trees - and/or there are agri protection orders on large, old trees - the alternative would be to erect a large high net fence. A bit like you see on golf practice courses. Builders scaffold netting is extremely tough/durable/uv protected, and stretchable. I use it as a wind protection for tall crops. It can be stretched to 8ft high. If you erect such netting a distance away from the trees, it will catch/prevent most of the wind fall of leaves and seeds blowing across into the grazing.
This idea wouldnt work if the trees are large/tall and literally overhanging the paddock, without paddock space being sacrificed to move the fenceline 20-30ft away from the trees.

 

[rhf]

This has reminded me of a sad event.
Many years (20+) ago, I sold a beautiful BOGOF yearling to a woman who was thought of as an experienced, responsible and caring horse owner.
This woman kept Bogofski and her pony at the same well-managed yard that B's dam and I stabled at. All was going well with her, pony and B.
A year later, there they were - gone. No notice. Vanished and no one saw the going of them. B's owner had also done a moonlight flit from home address.
Two years later, having moved B's dam to a yard several miles away just after the B+1+owner disappearance, I met someone still stabling there. They told me that B had been t/o in a field with sycamore trees in it and had died. Pony also dead. B alleged to have died from colic. Pony from old age. Pony would have been 10. Owner of both now "moved away". No forwarding address.
I sincerely hope that I never see her ever again. If I do, I shall walk away.

Sorry to hear about that. I agree that no doubt a lot of horses that die of colic and the like, it they didn't get testing done by a vet, could well have gone by Sycamore ATM and didn't get logged by researchers - in my six recent horsekeeping years I have heard tell of 2 horses that died inexplicably with "red wee" and 2 more ponies that went immediately after being put in a field with Sycamores, and I doubt any of them were recorded.
BTW, what does BOGOF stand for?

 

[rhf]

I once got a Pallet of haylage from a reputable company loaded with sycamore seeds /leaves and small branches holding lots of seeds. Must have been a windy summer to have blown off the end branches with clumps of seeds still connected and end up in the haylage crop.

That caused me to research the toxicity of sycamore and stumbled upon similar research that poster rhf mentioned. Without testing there’s no knowing if levels of toxin are low,med,high….and weather conditions/time of year impact levels etc, with the resounding advice being to keep clear of them.

If i had sycamore trees, unless extremely rare examples of large old trees, i’d take them down. Remove the lot. Especially on a farm/yard where horses/cattle are likely to always graze in the future too. There’s no point in having grazing surrounded with the added stress of known toxins, to an already challenging job of keeping animals healthy.

It’s likely that horses that have grazed beneath sycamore trees for 20+ yrs without issues, have unknowingly suffered as colic is a very common cause of toxin death and oftentimes the true causal factor of that colic never known, just the nature of colic described, i.e compaction.

Cut the trees down for peace of mind for now and the future, would be my advice. I consider sycamore much worse than oak!

If its not your land, and the owner is not keen to remove the trees - and/or there are agri protection orders on large, old trees - the alternative would be to erect a large high net fence. A bit like you see on golf practice courses. Builders scaffold netting is extremely tough/durable/uv protected, and stretchable. I use it as a wind protection for tall crops. It can be stretched to 8ft high. If you erect such netting a distance away from the trees, it will catch/prevent most of the wind fall of leaves and seeds blowing across into the grazing.
This idea wouldnt work if the trees are large/tall and literally overhanging the paddock, without paddock space being sacrificed to move the fenceline 20-30ft away from the trees.

Hi, The Big old sycamore tree by my paddock is over the lane next to a de-lux hotel, so I doubt that's coming down, but it's offspring form the hedge on this side, so there might be room for discussion with the farmer - he has however kept horses for many years without any problems known to have a sycamore origin. He also says he gets seedlings 1/2 kilometre away up the hill!
I have fenced off/abandoned the area immediately beneath the trees, outside the space with a greater than 45 degree angle to the tree crowns. On the rest of the acre paddock I have concentrated on keeping the grass down and of even length to make searching for seeds/seedlings easier (I have both landing/growing at the moment). Horse is out for 5-7 hours daily, and I leave her with 1/2 kilo dry hay per hour on turn-out. Unfortunately, due to 4 weeks box rest in November, she is at top tape weight at the wrong time of year, so I cannot give ad-lib until I have built up her exercise again.

 

[PurBee]

Hi, The Big old sycamore tree by my paddock is over the lane next to a de-lux hotel, so I doubt that's coming down, but it's offspring form the hedge on this side, so there might be room for discussion with the farmer - he has however kept horses for many years without any problems known to have a sycamore origin. He also says he gets seedlings 1/2 kilometre away up the hill!
I have fenced off/abandoned the area immediately beneath the trees, outside the space with a greater than 45 degree angle to the tree crowns. On the rest of the acre paddock I have concentrated on keeping the grass down and of even length to make searching for seeds/seedlings easier (I have both landing/growing at the moment). Horse is out for 5-7 hours daily, and I leave her with 1/2 kilo dry hay per hour on turn-out. Unfortunately, due to 4 weeks box rest in November, she is at top tape weight at the wrong time of year, so I cannot give ad-lib until I have built up her exercise again.

Yes, some scenarios are trickier to manage. It sounds like youre doing all you can to minimise intake of potential seeds/leaves/seedlings. Have you got a leaf blower? I have one for various jobs and have used it in the grazing area as a quicker solution than raking. Theyre brilliant! Really powerful and will blow up any leaves/seed/twigs that are stomped-in or are caught around bunches of grass - a huge time-saving device for jobs like clearing paddocks of dodgy tree droppings ?

I use the mcculloch hand-held brand, having used a cheaper 80quid chinese made ebay purchase that broke down after a couple of uses. I think mine was around 130quid. Its proven to be a reliable make.
If you look in fcebook marketpkace or gumtree etc you might, if youre lucky, find a (more expensive) backpack one, which is a great idea if youre doing anything more than 15 mins of blowing on large paddock areas as you wear the engine on your back like a rucksack and only hold the lightweight blow tube.
The handheld ones get a little heavy after a while of swinging it around, and the vibration of the units can make your hands tingle. My OH hates the vibration on the hands and refuses to use it! I wear gloves and find short 15 min stints manageable. It blows everything away…theyre perfect for toxic trees leafdrop and paddock issues.

 

[Ratface]

Sorry to hear about that. I agree that no doubt a lot of horses that die of colic and the like, it they didn't get testing done by a vet, could well have gone by Sycamore ATM and didn't get logged by researchers - in my six recent horsekeeping years I have heard tell of 2 horses that died inexplicably with "red wee" and 2 more ponies that went immediately after being put in a field with Sycamores, and I doubt any of them were recorded.
BTW, what does BOGOF stand for?

In my part of the UK (South East) BOGOF is an acronym for Bought One, Got One Free.
I bought Bogofski's dam from travelling people. She had been advertised on Dragon Driving, and I was looking for a nice young mare after the sad loss of my beloved old one. RIP Ryta.
I went to see the mare, who was barely recognisable from the pony in the advert. Very thin, depressed manner, filthy dirty and "stabled" in a rotten shed on top of a couple of feet of dung.
The owners pulled her out on a twine "head collar" and hit her with ropes to get her to walk and eventually, trot. A young lad jumped on her and rode her up and down the yard, accompanied by the owners' "encouragement".
They asked if I "want(ed) a go?" I mounted very carefully, leaning over her first. She felt frozen underneath me. I asked the owners not to move, spoke to the pony quietly and just sat on her for a few minutes. Eventually, I clicked my tongue and she plodded three steps forward. After twenty minutes she was walking the length of the yard, responding to clicks and "woa-ho" and gentle neck reining aids.
I got off, did a brief physical check over, haggled the price down, got her delivered to our yard later in the day and spent the next year getting her fit and well, able to cope with the world, including the totally unexpected pregnancy. She foaled Bogofski overnight, with no assistance and was an excellent mother to him. He wasn't called Bogofski in reality, but I wish to preserve his privacy, and that of his lovely dam.
I had her for five years, she became a brilliant all-rounder, and is still, in her late thirties, nannying weaned foals. Prior to her retirement, she was a star on the local Pony Club circuit.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Sheep will eat the seedlings and as our old ladies are now 12/13 they have obviouslynot been made ill by them.