Thought of the day, lively debate expected (and hoped for)

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mbequest

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Following a visit to a show this morning where we were faced with an abominable British Novice course the following topic was up for discussion on the way home..........

Is poor course building at lower levels contributing to Britains lack of top level horses? Is it stopping the producers from giving their horse a good enough education to enable them to compete at top level.

I can hear all the people saying that if the horse is good enough then it shouldn't matter what it is asked to jump. But, if good young horses never learn to come and jump a course out of a basic rhythm will they ever learn this vital tool?? Does this prohibit them from maximising their potential?


Any thoughts??
 
I think novice courses are the most important , just as in dressage novice/ prelim tests are very important. They should both encourage a horse to keep a forward rhythm, which they don't always.
We went jumping this morning but just to hire the schooling fence course. When did people start riding in Brit. Nov. in red jackets , sorry thought one looked really out of place.lol
 
What was wrong with the course?

I can’t really see that a badly build 90cm course is going to effect something that has the potential to go all the way. I expect a lot of those horses would not even bother with such classes anyway.
 
Starbucks, what even for those with 4yo's just starting out?? What classes do they start at??

It is not just 90cm classes the discovery was diabolical too. That leaves you with the newcomers??

The first fence was built off a corner where you had to hit the short side wall on the left rein, then perform an approx 8m half circle to get back to it on a straight line. It was not possible to jump off the right.

You were then faced with a 9o degree turn to the right on 5 strides to a vertical.

Then a further 5/6 strides on a curving line towards to other end of the school where you jumped an oxer straight at the wall. How can you get on a rhythm
 
I agree ... often courses at lower levels are very technical. I spoke to someone many years ago who said that most course designers will have only two ot three different courses for the competiiton.

Thus in a day, the BN was first, course changed for discovery, then NC then guess what back to the course (bigger obviously) that they had for the BN but this time for Foxhunter class. Leading to the assumption either technicality is too easy for FH or hard for BN or possibly not suitable for either...
 
Vrin, I agree re: the same course. Numerous times I have jumped a novice and then again around something bigger.


It does take alot of time and effort to coursebuild. And show centres dont want a hold in proceedings whilst loads of changes to a course take place. I also think that possibly the BSJA are to blame a little. At course builders seminars they work alot on the bigger more technical courses and having people progree through the grades as a builder. Perhaps they should have more time dedicated to showing CB's how to desigb flowing courses for novices, not technical ones.........
 
i'm not sure on the effects this has long term, but im with mbequestrian on this one, some of the building is really a bit off. some are fab though - i am not moaning!
i ride alot of 4 year olds and sometimes find it really amazing what they expect you to be able to do with them at smaller local shows where the building is sometimes not great, even up to newcomers.
the other day i had unlevel striding, like 4 and a half, on a dog leg in a discovery - what is that about ? surely small courses should be about confidence and rhythm and going foward.

i prefer alot of the young horse classes even though they are a bit bigger, just because the builders often seem to put a different head on to build it and think 'novice horse' whereas in discovery for some reason, they sometimes dont!
 
thats a really good point Vrin, now i think about it i have often jumped the same track for a fox and a smaller class. or the same but backwards!
 
I don't think too many people capable of producing a top class horse start off in British novice it is a class introduced to gain more membership for the bsja and more revenue for the show centre's basically it's a class for novice rider's and their novice horses,
 
.. and if it is for novice riders and novice horses then that is even more reason that they should be flowing to encourage the right way og going and give confidence..
 
If that's your capability british novice just don't go where that course builder is again, I know a couple of course builder's I wont let my horses jump if they are building
 
i have produced some which have gone on to jump 150 from british novices.
i dont understand where you think they come from? i know some pros start at newcomers, but to be honest, not many of them produce their own from scratch as they are too busy with their top horses.
anyway its not just british novice, its discovery and newcomers.
and yes you can avoid the coursebuilder but thats not really the point!
 
iv not jumped BSJA for zillions of years(well 5)but when i came off ponies i produced 3 horses from 4yo-yes i jumped a few BN to get going, but mainly did the 4yo style and performance classes (do they still have them???), and the next year the 5yo qualifiers, and towards the end of the that year newc, 6yos jumped the 6yo HOYS qual /olympic star spotters (is that right?) and towards the end of the season some B's and C's.
i dont think many pro's hang around the BN/disc scene for long as the classes are huge and always won by someone on a 1m-1.05m schoolmaster anyway.

times have probably changes since i was there, but thats how i remember it anyway!
 
they dont have the 4 year old s any more, except scope and addington. which would be an initiation of fire if you didnt do anything else first!!
 
exactly cactus. Alot of people will buy good horses at say 5 or 6 and produce it to top level from there.

Take the Billy Stud for example. They have a massive breeding program and are producing loads and loads of very nice young horses. They have to start somewhere??
 
I think it probably depends on the venue and the numbers in the class.

I am lucky in that my locals at Summerhouse and Hartpury, always build very fair courses. Downside is you go somewhere like Addington for a big qualifier and then there are lots of questions you don't see a lot! (But then that was a 1m BC qualifier that got 108 to 2 DC's)
 
Prince33 raises a very good point.

Atleast when there were 4yo classes you had somewhere to go which built specifically for that category of horse. I really do think that the BSJA should re-introduce some sort of class like this. After all, the young horse classes are really well supported in Holland, Germany and France. Is is surprising that they are some of the strongest countries in SJ?
 
Cotswold, yes but interestingly enough on most occasions, the builders at Hartpury and Summerhouse are former riders and producers..........

The qual at Addington was very strong and won by a horse that had jumped DC at fox level. But, it flowed and was not that technical. It caused problems the whole way round.
 
yeah i think they should bring them back. they also make a really good selling platform for producers as alot of potential buyers watch 4 year old classes and you always get alot of interest in a nice horse at them.
which would then encourage more producers. which is a real problem over here i think, is that not many people are producing the horses so we dont have alot of choice of good horses.
if that makes sense.
 
oh, what a shame. i did wonder if they still had them, but im not very up to date on the BSJA.

the 4yo and 5yo style and performance classes were lovely courses from what i remember.

agree that addington would be a baptism of fire!!!! its the same for dressage too!!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think too many people capable of producing a top class horse start off in British novice it is a class introduced to gain more membership for the bsja and more revenue for the show centre's basically it's a class for novice rider's and their novice horses,

[/ QUOTE ]

Round our neck of the woods you often get the Whitakers (Steven/Louise/Joe/Ellen etc. etc.) bringing a lorry load of 4yos to jump clear rounds and BN. I'm sure they move on fairly quickly but they're definitely out there jumping them.

I think it matters, but not enormously. A horse may spend 6-8mins a week in the ring with the majority of its education elsewhere. I agree that that track sounds horrific but the good producers do most of the work at home so that one badly built course shouldn't throw the horse's education off track. That's not to say that I wouldn't like them all to be built to an encouraging and flowing standard and not just a smaller version of the Foxhunter track.
 
I do have a few complaints about our system here in Belgium,but one of the good points is that even at regional level we have separate 4,5 and 6 year old classes. These are built with the appropriate age category in mind,and at a slightly easier level than the national cyclus. Our national cyclus is however built quite strongly,but simply, but of course aimed at the commercial sector and consequently there is a strong aim to be CLEAR. I don't follow that reasoning simply because i feel that a good horse will reach his potential at his or her own tempo. Saying that,Belgium has a top 'shop window' and should continue to do so. I stay at our regional level with the youngsters,purely out of my own preference and personally wont ask a young horse to compete at a level he is not yet able to. Our regional young horse classes have nice encouraging courses, the 4yos don't have to jump a double til June and all the combinations and lines are simple and with 'honest' distances. Having said all that,TBH I don't jump competitively with my 4yos at all....
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My best SJers have all been late starters,Luck? Hmmmm....
 
imo i dont think its just courses being over-technical, but a certain unreliability as to what you are going to be faced with. obviously, i dont expect to go out and jump the same course week after week, but how can one show centre build a big british novice with lots of dog legs, fillers, combinations and the next build a tiny one with a distinct lack of any difficult questions. surely 90cm is 90cm??
however, i do think that novice courses (BN and disco) should ask some questions, for example they should include combinations, interesting fillers, maybe even walls, whilst they should still flow. the lack of combis ect causes problems for when you reach newcomer and foxhunter, or maybe even bigger when you are suddenly presented with challenging lines and fences. if the horse has not had the practice over these to begin with, trying to teach them at 1.20m, when it is harder to climb out of a mistake is alot more difficult than teaching them outright from the start.
 
BN should be flowing, especially the first half of the course. In the second half of the course it should maybe contain a fence off a wall to express the correct training of the horse to listen, a double and a related. Fences should be well built, lots of things to look at, etc. The JO part should be encouraging, but also have some rideable tight lines for those more forward on in their training and ability.

The show I saw you at the other week - in the 70cms, the first to second fence was appalling, and that was built by a BSJA builder!
 
[ QUOTE ]
BN should be flowing, especially the first half of the course. In the second half of the course it should maybe contain a fence off a wall to express the correct training of the horse to listen, a double and a related. Fences should be well built, lots of things to look at, etc. The JO part should be encouraging, but also have some rideable tight lines for those more forward on in their training and ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats what i was trying to say!! flowing and rideable, yet asking some questions. you are much better at wording things than me
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