PandorasJar
Well-Known Member
That would be the surface problem. No horse is simply footsore through being barefoot however the underlying cause may mean that it can't go barefoot.
Pan
thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing
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That would be the surface problem. No horse is simply footsore through being barefoot however the underlying cause may mean that it can't go barefoot.
Pan
FabioandFreddy
Well-Known Member
So essentially there shouldn't be a need for hoof boots then?
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners
Twenty odd years back, I liveried at a riding school. Every last one of her 40+ horses were without shoes. Were they treated any different to those liveries who chose to have shoes? No. Same turn out paddocks, same forage/hard feed and probably more work than livery horses. And get this, they were all seen by the same farrier
I have had fully shod , fronts only and completely unshod horses. Have any of those had "special" treatment? No. Have any of them had any dire foot problems? No.
Maybe I have been lucky by not having to change my lifestyle to keep an unshod horse
The fact that they were working a lot is the very reason why they didn't have any problem barefoot. I wouldn't say you have been lucky with no hoof problems, I would say you have carefully chosen the horses you bought and they were healthy.
People generally turn to barefoot when their horses are lame/injured or they can't shoe anymore, that's why a lot of people ask advice about rehab. Of course, nothing wrong with keeping a healthy horse unshod, but there is generally not a lot to talk about. Pulling the shoes and correctly rehabing has saved the live of many horses that have had a diagnostic of PTS by vets, as well as brought back to soundness lame horses.
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
Not in such a foot, no. In a foot which has a thin sole/inflammation or a myriad of other pathologies, hoof boots can be invaluable.
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
If all horses were strong and healthy, there souldn't be a need for vets either. The world is not perfect. The benefits of boots is that there are like trainers that you put on when you need them and you can take them off whenever. They are padded, absorb shocks and are not rigid like a piece of metal. People say shoes must be good because they have been in use for a long time, however I wouldn't want a surgeon or a dentist from the Middle-Age working on me, even though they might have used their techniques for centuries.
quirky
Well-Known Member
I think you are being a little sensitive ..... like many a barefoot horse so it seems
I haven't moaned, I haven't ridiculed you, I haven't segregated myself and finally at no point have I called you an idiot.
What I will call you though is rude sadly.
I fail to see why you've taken umbrage with me but you carry on if it makes you feel better
Funnily enough, there are people who agree with my post, you going to have a pop at them too
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Well then I can call you rude too for your original post as you were insinuating all barefooters are full of twaddle as you call it.
Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.
THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.
Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse. That was me at one point. We all have to learn.
Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.
THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.
Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse. That was me at one point. We all have to learn.
TigerTail
Well-Known Member
Um kinder to whom? The horse? I wouldnt fancy having nails banged into my horses feet if they were sore already. I actually wouldnt fancy the farriers chances of succeeding either
To the owner? Yeh sure it would be easier to bury my head in the sand and ignore the issues my horse clearly has but its only going to bite me in the arse later.......
Having done a lot of research into shoeing and exactly how tiny a gap they have to get the nail in without impinging on live tissue and seen how a fence rail splits eventually once its been nailed to the post and seen how much a horses hoof should flex as it rolls through and cant with a rigid structure nailed on I wont be shoeing anytime soon, especially out of 'easyness' for me. How selfish.
rhino
Well-Known Member
This particular thread is a discussion about the shod/unshod debate, no?
It is also a public forum so people are free to continue to post as they see fit, perhaps there are other forums you could use if you don't want discussions to be allowed?
quirky
Well-Known Member
Ooh, when did you become HHO police, deciding when and what people can post on?
Please, anybody who agrees with me, do not post on this thread, tallyho! says so
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
Oh, this is getting good now! So anyone who doesn't agree with you is thick and/or stupid? Perhaps it's just that the arguments being put forward are just not very good? Why, oh why cannot people just realise that NO system is right 100% of the time for 100% of horses? There is not just "1" way that suits all horses. The problem with evangelism is that it ultimately cannot deal with the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you, no matter how "right" you feel you are.
CBFan
Well-Known Member
1) No - horses weren't born with shoes on, and before you say 'but they weren't born to be ridden either' no, they weren't but in nature they walk, trot and canter many tens of miles more on a daily basis than the majority of us ask of them when they are being ridden... They should therefore be able to manahe fine without shoes on with the correct management - which, in the majority of cases means adressing the diet. I am of the firm belief that if a horse is footsore when barefoot there is indeed an underlying issue that hasn't been identified. Unfortunately, given that the majority of us are forced to keep our horses in a certain way, generally governed by livery yard set ups, it can be very hard to identify and adress those issues.
2) that is your opinion, which you are entitled to but many of us have turned to 'barefoot trimmers' after farriers have failed to help us keep our horses sound and barefoot in work. All decisions with the management of my horse are thoroughly considered and not undertaken on a whim or through peer pressure....
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
I really, really can't understand why this argument is rolled out in every shod v barefoot debate. Some people seem obsessed with the idea that barefooters think barefoot is better 100% of the time. I have never said that. I do not know any other barefooters who have ever said that.
Please stop using this as an argument against us, it is factually incorrect.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
And yet whenever anyone "gives in" and shoes their horse all the barefoot people jump on them like a ton of bricks amid accusations of "not addressing the underlying issues" and "masking" the pain with shoes, and on, and on, and on........
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
I just want a useable horse.
Where do I fit in?!
Where do I fit in?!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Sorry Rhino and quirky, I didn't know I was arguing about agreeing with me!
I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff.
You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.
I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff.
You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.
Cahill
Well-Known Member
when i do lots of road-work i have them shod,if i am not doin so much,i have the shoes taken off.
never had the slightest problem,have a good farrier,never worried about diet and feet and have trotted miles and have never had soreness.
amazing thngs,hooves
also have bought ponies with crap feet that have come good in no time.
never had the slightest problem,have a good farrier,never worried about diet and feet and have trotted miles and have never had soreness.
amazing thngs,hooves
also have bought ponies with crap feet that have come good in no time.
Hedwards
Well-Known Member
Until very recently I would agree with you, tried to go barefoot/unshod (on recomendation of my farrier) failed... in the crappy weather now left with a horse that has pulled 4 shoes off the same foot in 4 weeks (a foot that she has had concussive lami in with significant pedal bone rotation) I'm now left with no choice but to buy some boots, we cant shoe the foot at the moment, she's done too much damage, but is hopping lame on uneaven concrete without any protection, so boots to get from stable to field (in the field and on her rubber matting she's fine) and hope we can pursuade the hoof to grow good and strong going forwards... (she has always been unshod behind and absolutely fine, and her other foreleg coped fine when we initially tried barefoot/unshod...)
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Oh thank the gods! A voice of reason!when i do lots of road-work i have them shod,if i am not doin so much,i have the shoes taken off.
never had the slightest problem,have a good farrier,never worried about diet and feet and have trotted miles and have never had soreness.
amazing thngs,hooves
also have bought ponies with crap feet that have come good in no time.
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
I know of several people who have shod their barefoot horses for the grass growing seasons because they can't get on top of the carbs. It's not a problem - its done with full knowledge of the underlying causes, and after an attempt has been made to resolve them. Those people haven't been jumped on by anyone - quite the contrary, they are supported for making the right decision for their horse at that time.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Probably because the barefooters tell anyone who doesn't agree to stop posting. They are constantly telling owners who shoe that they either don't care or are thick. (check the posts.)
Not all of us normal owners remove shoes when the horse has a problem. Some of us just get on with it. Perhaps we're even quite good at managing our horses prophylactically.
The term barefoot has become cringeworthy thanks to a small very vocal group on here who have a little knowledge and not much experience.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I wish you would stop using such over-emotive expressions as "jumps on them like a ton of bricks". No barefooter has ever done that.
And the fact is, if you have a horse who is not sound without shoes, who immediately goes sound in shoes, you have indeed not addressed the underlying issues that made it unable to cope without shoes and the pain has clearly been masked. That's what "immediately sound" means, it can mean nothing else.
Let's take your own case, for example. You posted on two threads supporting two posters whose horses had been long term sound barefoot but were recently footie. You told them that you also had recently had to shoe your mare.
But much later on, on another thread, you explained that the reason you had to shoe your mare is that she is a working film horse who had recently had a sharp increase in workload, which has long been documented as one of the things that cause a horse to need to be shod. And in your case was a complete necessity which no barefoot argued against. (though after half a bottle of wine one night I did compare it to treating your horse as a machine, which was probably a little strong, so sorry for that
)You did not address the issue, which was a too rapid increase in work for the feet to cope. Your horse became immediately sound when it had been sore, so the shoes masked the pain.
These are facts, as is the fact that you had no viable option, given that your horse works for a living and you have bills to pay. No-one, especially not me, is "jumping on you like a ton of bricks", though I suspect that you and others are very likely to interpret it that way.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think I realise cortez thank you very much. It's not about right or wrong. It's about having the respect not to call people names while we have this discussion!
That is what I am getting het up about!! Not whether or not you can post. Not about if horse can manage or not.
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Sometimes I do wonder, if this whole barefoot thing has added a new level of angst for already angsty owners about whether they are doing the right thing for their horse or not.
I'd never really come across it until my horse had an abscess due to me not noticing bad farriery, last Nov. Before then it wasn't really something that had occurred to me, like someone said above, if you rode it lots over hard ground - shoe it!
Now you come on here and there's new knowledge every day about barefoot, techniques, things to try, food to feed etc etc. I cannot deny that my horses soundness has improved while she hasn't had shoes on HOWEVER until I put shoes back ON I wont actually know whether that's just because of poor balance and diet previously or the prescence of the shoes themselves.
I paid a lot of money for my horse, I pay a lot of money for her upkeep, I bought her to work. If putting shoes on her will make her work then that's what will happen. It may well be that she COULD have learnt to cope with being unshod over a longer period, but quite frankly I haven't the time nor inclination to give her more time.
I'd never really come across it until my horse had an abscess due to me not noticing bad farriery, last Nov. Before then it wasn't really something that had occurred to me, like someone said above, if you rode it lots over hard ground - shoe it!
Now you come on here and there's new knowledge every day about barefoot, techniques, things to try, food to feed etc etc. I cannot deny that my horses soundness has improved while she hasn't had shoes on HOWEVER until I put shoes back ON I wont actually know whether that's just because of poor balance and diet previously or the prescence of the shoes themselves.
I paid a lot of money for my horse, I pay a lot of money for her upkeep, I bought her to work. If putting shoes on her will make her work then that's what will happen. It may well be that she COULD have learnt to cope with being unshod over a longer period, but quite frankly I haven't the time nor inclination to give her more time.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
no we don't
No we aren't
If I understand you correctly, can you tell me what possible advantage you can see in paying for shoes and drugs when the horse can heal itself without? Especially when the cure rate for foot lameness is so much lower with remedial shoeing and prophylaxis?
Nope. There is a lovely body of people on here now who know what they are talking about and have been responsible between them for quite a number of horses which have returned to work instead of being pensioned off or shot.
If taking this kind of abuse from posters like you, is the penalty for helping those owners, bring it on
!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
No I think you will find that is only ME!!! How does that make it ALL barefooters?
Oh and I do not tell "normal" owners they are thick.... Otherwise please prove.
Good for you for managing your horse. So the rest of us who can't manage and get problems should give up?
It's cringeworthy to the people who find it cringeworthy and as for knowledge versus experience, how much do you know about everyone on here? Who do you have in mind exactly?
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
I think Tallyho said 'why do you bother posting?', which is hardly the same as 'I think you should stop posting' - you have only interpreted it that way because it suits your view point to do so.
I'm also fairly offended by your implication that I have little knowledge or experience; I don't see how you could know that. Though perhaps you weren't referring to me specifically - I'm not sure.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I, however would interpret a horse that was lame before shoeing and not lame after shoeing as having had the pain removed - much as I would have if I ouchily walked across a stoney path in my soft little bare feet, put on my shoes and walked back over it without pain: not "masked", surely, but removed?I wish you would stop using such over-emotive expressions as "jumps on them like a ton of bricks". No barefooter has ever done that.
And the fact is, if you have a horse who is not sound without shoes, who immediately goes sound in shoes, you have indeed not addressed the underlying issues that made it unable to cope without shoes and the pain has clearly been masked. That's what "immediately sound" means, it can mean nothing else.
Let's take your own case, for example. You posted on two threads supporting two posters whose horses had been long term sound barefoot but were recently footie. You told them that you also had recently had to shoe your mare.
But much later on, on another thread, you explained that the reason you had to shoe your mare is that she is a working film horse who had recently had a sharp increase in workload, which has long been documented as one of the things that cause a horse to need to be shod. And in your case was a complete necessity which no barefoot argued against. (though after half a bottle of wine one night I did compare it to treating your horse as a machine, which was probably a little strong, so sorry for that
You did not address the issue, which was a too rapid increase in work for the feet to cope. Your horse became immediately sound when it had been sore, so the shoes masked the pain.
These are facts, as is the fact that you had no viable option, given that your horse works for a living and you have bills to pay. No-one, especially not me, is "jumping on you like a ton of bricks", though I suspect that you and others are very likely to interpret it that way.
*hic*
village idiot :D
I'm another one who shoes according to the horse. If the horse is in pain with the shoes off I feel it unfair to keep them like that and shoe them again. I prefer not to have shoes on - better safety and less cost for a start - but am aware that one cannot explain to a horse that it may take months and months of pain before things start to get better. I currently own five unshod horses and two shod ones. For a long time I had two Welshies both shod only in front. All my horses have shown remarkable levels of soundness gauged against others that I know of and read about, for which I am extremely grateful to the work of my farrier.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Can you point me to the posters who say otherwise? I'm personally on record from 2 years ago saying exactly that, but I am also unaware of any other posters in that time who do not agree that there are some horses and even more horse/owner combinations for which shoes are the right answer.