Thoughts on buying full TBs for eventing - Miners Frolic, Lead the Way etc.

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kit279

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I watched Lead the Way showjump at Burghley and it really got me thinking about full TBs and eventing.

You quite often hear about ex-racehorses that don't make the grade and retrain as event horses - some of them being very successful and very good at their job. But I've often wondered what would happen if you paid serious money for a racing-bred full TB as a 4 year old with the specific purpose of eventing. After all, people seem to expect to buy TBs for very little money - even ones that have evented to a reasonable level.

I did hear that Lead the Way originally went to the Doncaster sales and failed to meet the asking price which was something like £12K so stayed on to event. Now that's quite a bit of money for a horse but not for a racehorse, where really nice NH-bred 4 year olds will often go for £20K plus. But then I've seen people quite willingly pay that kind of money for a smart purpose-bred-for-eventing youngster. I'm sure the BYEH winners change hands for that kind of money at least.

I suppose what I'm asking is:- if you're going to spend serious money on a horse and you know what you're looking for, are you just as likely to find what you're looking for at Doncaster as at the latest purpose bred event stud?
 
one of Andrew Hoy's best ones was a really well-bred TB, owned by a big racehorse owner, I can't remember which one though. It didn't race, went straight to him afaik.
I think it does depend on their natural jump and cleverness though. I've seen some racehorses that I would have LOVED to have seen eventing (or had myself - clever fencers such as good old Dessie!), but others that would never have done the job. Their naturally high cruising speed is a huge advantage, as long as it is coupled with athleticism.
Pat Smythe's Prince Hal (top SJ in his day) was an ex-racehorse, she saw him come in last somewhere, slow as a boat, and balloon the last fence, and bought him based on that!
 
We had a horse come from the Sales last year that would have made THE most fantastic event horse. I think he was something like. . . . £350k. ;)

On the other hand, a three year old mare came through that would have been a fantastic sport horse and she was cheap . . .I think they'd paid about £20k. BUT by the time she'd been through the mill she wasn't "untouched" anymore and that money would have been too much of a gamble for sport.

I think the problem CAN be that horses "shaped" for racing are not necessarily shaped for other sports BUT anything good sized, good looking, straight moving and built to gallop is going to command the top end of the market. Even the "duds" command a good price because there's always a dreamer out there. I know one right now, already gelded for not showing much promise, now hanging out as not going to be a two year old so no point staying in training. He's pretty enough to show and a good athlete. BUT even having disappointed thus far, I suspect any serious offer would have to be much higher than most sport people would pay for a, by our standards, just backed horse. Another that was supposed to be a "big money" horse and didn't make the grade is out running at a lower level BUT he's made something like £40k this year, so still worth a gamble to many people.

To compare with the BYEH isn't really accurate, as for those horses you're also buying their good, purpose oriented training. While many racing yards start horses well you can't expect that they'd have the same specific training at the same age and they'd likely have some training that had to be "undone". As far as buying at the sales vs buying something doing BYEH, I'm not sure many people have the ability - or trust themselves - to buy an un/lightly backed horse they only see trotted up and perhaps galloped if they're looking at stores. (A great phrase, btw. :) )

The people I know who breed TBs specifically for sport seem to ask/get the same sort of figures one would expect for non-TB sport horses of the same calibre at the same stage. I think it is possible to get "gifts' from places that just don't want to be bothered with less than stellar prospects BUT you'd have to be standing at the stud/trainer's yard with your wallet open to get it. Otherwise, as above they'll sell it to a dreamer/gambler and that's probably the end of a really top sport career, if only because of time, training, and miles on the clock.
 
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kerilli said:
one of Andrew Hoy's best ones was a really well-bred TB, owned by a big racehorse owner, I can't remember which one though. It didn't race, went straight to him afaik.
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Moon Fleet :)

IIRC, I think Miner's Frolic was in the Gifford racing yard before Tina Cook got him for eventing, could be wrong though.
 
Kerilli your thinking of Moon Fleet who was bred at Rathbarry Stud in Ireland by Strong Gale-one of the top NH stallions of the time-from a decent family although it says his damline is unknown on BE. He was owned by the Magniers (Coolmore) bought for JP but I'm not sure he ever rode him-got sidetracked by racing! Certainly relations from that family are still fetching decent money-15,000 euro for a filly out of a half sister to Moon Fleet a couple of years back-was nice model though
 
Yes, it was Moonfleet. I heard that the people who owned him knew very early on that he was special and people who saw Miners Frolic as a 4-year old said the same thing. I think the thing is being in the right place at the right time and handed over to the right people. Lead the Way has been trained by really capable decent jockeys - who's to say whether he'd be where he is now if he'd been sold to your average amateur.

When I bought my black horse out of racing, his trainer took me and Phoebe round his yard of 50 horses and took us straight to one horse and said 'You'd want to event this one, this is a 4* horse in the right hands but he's not for sale as he's fast on the track'. So obviously the trainer was no fool, he knew what he was about. Which makes me think that a good horse is a good horse and even a slow racehorse can change hands for serious money to the right person.

I do wonder though whether the things that make a good racehorse are the same things you're looking for in an event horse. At the Doncaster Sales, we saw a really nice feisty little grey horse that sold to Nicky Henderson for £20K. I'd have bought it - he was really something to see in the flesh (have a look at the video - http://www.phoebebuckleyeventing.co.../26_A_trip_to_Doncaster_Bloodstock_Sales.html).

Makes you think - basically you get what you pay for!
 
You'd also want to choose your bloodlines carefully-sprint bred horses are much sharper and quicker to react than the those with more of a stayers pedigree such as Moonfleet. Having said that there is one eventing this time who I've seen who looks really sensible-he was well thought of as a two/three year old- and he is by a sire who was very hot but brilliant as are most of his offspring-both very hot and brilliant. You would also want to be careful with one or two sires as a fair number of their stock are wrong in the wind
 
TarrSteps said:
I think it is possible to get "gifts' from places that just don't want to be bothered with less than stellar prospects BUT you'd have to be standing at the stud/trainer's yard with your wallet open to get it. Otherwise, as above they'll sell it to a dreamer/gambler and that's probably the end of a really top sport career, if only because of time, training, and miles on the clock.
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Tarrsteps - do you think that high end older racehorses are unlikely to retrain to event/showjump to a high level (assuming they're sound) because of the racing training process? Because I've seen some really smart horses come out of racing, some duds too, but some really nice ones that move like 'proper' horses. What is it that holds them back from top end eventing?
 
Hi

The main reason for ex-racers being good eventer's is there trainability. From a young age they are well trained a disaplined. I personally won't pay 12k for a horse!!! If you contact a trainer there are plently on horses surplus to requirements for a cheaper figure. most are to slow.
 
Hi
I was Clea Phillips Head Girl for several years, and Leader (Lead The Way) arrived when I was there. He came direct from Ireland, where Clea spotted him jumping at a training show and she produced him to event. He never went to doncaster.
I presume he was originally bred to race, but never even went into training. He has supurb conformation and to me is a fantastic stamp of event horse.
I have since purchased a (then) 2 year old filly, by Silver Patriarch, bred at a TB racing stud with the intention of racing. She is of the same stamp as Leader and I am producing her to event(she is now 3 and a half).
I think full TB's can obviously make top class event horses, but they must have the correct conformation for the job, which is not the same as the correct confo for racing.
So, yes I do think you can find the right sort of horse at Doncaster and the like, as long as you know the stamp you are looking for!
 
Pippa Funnell's Ensign was an ex-racer - although he was never really a 4* horse (well Badders and Burghley anyway although I think he did well/won at Pau??), I guess he didn't do too badly :-)

I think one of William Fox Pitts was an ex racer too - Cosmopolitan springs to mind but I could have that completely wrong... Or was it Stunning? Can't remember but I thought one of them did ;-)
 
kit279 said:
Tarrsteps - do you think that high end older racehorses are unlikely to retrain to event/showjump to a high level (assuming they're sound) because of the racing training process? Because I've seen some really smart horses come out of racing, some duds too, but some really nice ones that move like 'proper' horses. What is it that holds them back from top end eventing?
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A few things, in different proportions depending on the horse.

Time. A winning gelding is likely to stay in training. (A winning colt or filly is obviously likely to go to stud.) With each year increases wear and tear and the potential for a career ending injury. It also means one less year of retraining time. An older horse might progress more quickly but it also might need more adjustment/retraining.

Soundness. Related to time. Even if the horse is technically sound, it will have baggage, which may not stand up to high demands. The problem is you might not know until you get there, which makes people now, in this world of "clean slate" starts, leery.

People. I agree with your basic premise, which is because ex/failed/unstarted race horses are "surplass to purpose" they tend to get sold cheaply and this can mean they don't go to the sort of people who can take them all the way. Because the numbers are so high, though, and the horses may not then be "out and about", their talent doesn't become obvious to other people who might be able to take things further.

And, related to all of the above, training. You never get to start from scratch so however promising the underlying structure, there is a good chance the horse has not been ridden in a way that fosters a sport way of going. Note I said "chance" as obviously there are riders and trainers about who do things in a more "riding horse" way. But things like suppling and stretching the top line; fostering a consistent, elastic contact; bending, balanced canter on a light contact etc. will not likely have been huge priorities relative to the work of becoming/being a race horse. I've seen some very winning race horses that look lovely but really aren't lovely to ride. They could learn to be, but that takes time and effort, on top of the time and effort already spent being a racehorse.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE ex-race horse fan - my best horse by far raced and is still sound at 27 after eventing, jumping, doing dressage and being a schoolmaster for a list of people. I've seen some lovely ones and I'd not hesitate to go looking for one again. BUT I think it's a big ask, in these days of specialist breeding and super production, to ask a horse to catch up to it's custom bred and produced peers, and still have enough in the tank to be a supreme athlete. It happens but realistically, less and less.
 
There are certain names that crop up time and time again in good NH horses and good eventers. Bustino and Busted are the two that I look for everytime. I just think they seem to produce the goods in stock that can jump.
Supreme Leader (In fact has Crepello twice in sire and dam line)
Presenting has busted in sire line and I love his stock!
Terimon.

I love nothing better than a proper old fashioned NH chaser. I went to Ascot recently and watched hundreds go though the ring. I watched a lot trot up and there were maybe two who I would have taken home who moved straight and had X factor. The one I really loved was top lot of the day and sold for £12k.

My sister worked for Alan King. There was one horse who was French bred who was a terrible race horse yet looked and moved beautifully. It still kept being sold for a lot of money as they kept hoping it would come good as a race horse. A trainer knows when they have an old dog and when they have something special. Mr Frisk who evented at intermediate as well as winning the national was always stunning to look at.
 
If you study the pedigrees of all the top event horses there are remarkable patterns that you see there because they will nearly all be very closely linked to racehorse bred TB's- I dont mean just 4/5 pedigrees back but as close up in the first and second generations.All the top eventers are largely 7/8th TB. Even the ones like Marius Voigt Logistick- you would think he is mostly warmblood , yes he is a warmblood studbook, but he is largely a TB from racing bloodlines.
You soon start to form a picture in your mind at what bloodlines makes the perfect event horse and what doesnt.
I would absolutely pay top notch for a good looking TB , UNRACED as a 4 year old.
It must be very hard to find good looking 4 year olds in this country for top level eventing, Apart from the obvious places like the billy stud, where else do people look? Another import from abroad?- So yes, i would go to a sale like Doncaster or Tattersalls/Goffs ireland to find a smart, good looking horse that moved properly and had correct conformation.

However- would i buy one that has already raced and been in training, sadly I would tread very carefully in that respect.
The regime for training racehorses is far too intense. Yes there are some that come out oK, but a lot dont seem to.
Its fine if you want a mediocre horse that is able to get round and function at 60%, but if you want a top level event prospect, every joint and muscle has to be working correctly from the outset. If theyv'e already been in training, this will be compromised in some respect.

I also think that if a horse was too slow as a racehorse, its perhaps not going to be a 'top' event horse, in general. Having ridden in training flat racers rated below 65 and hurdlers/chasers rated below 85, I dont believe that they have the right abundunce of power, athleticsm and balance to make a really good eventer. Fine of course for the lower levels at novice B.E and below, but not really any more. I am sure that there are exceptions to this rule tho!
 
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I think a lot of the issue is that a horse that a thoroughbred who will be good at eventing will invariably be good as a racehorse so they will be put into training first.

and i'm afraid once they have been in training i am much less interested in them unless i know the trainer they come from.
it is a much bigger punt in terms of soundness and how much of their education you will need to decontruct and start again with- it puts you back timewise and there is no guarantee you will get back to the base you want to start from.

I am thinking horses like Best Mate who comes up over and over again when eventers (and showing people) are asked if they could own any horse.

The sort of tb i like is a big rangy NH type and i have very expensive taste- at all of the sales i have been to the ones i have picked out have also been picked out by the big racing yards and more times than not they are going for £20k+.

I would certainly pay equivalent money for a 4yro tb to a 'custom bred' sports horse.
- in fact i have done as Millie was bred to race and i bought her as a foal from a racing stud rather than a 'sports horse' and paid a pretty price for her when she is 'just a tb.'
 
Kitty King's Five Boys also ran a good few times before going eventing. Having had two tb-one unraced went to CCI**-my limit-one raced (hurdles)-pre novice but sold him when I broke myself-plenty of talent but sharp and now a 3/4 bred with a bit of ID the latter is by far the easiest and has plenty of jump. But then the main factor with all horses is who has them-In my job I see plenty of ex racehorses away from the racetrack and a good few have the talent but the riders have bought them as a hack and maybe the ultimate aim of jumping round an intro.But that holds true with all horses and I see plenty of potential superstars (I can think of two in particular) that will never be asked to jump more than 0.85m.
 
I bought my TB privately as a 3yo because (although having good NH breeding - by Florida Son out of a Yashgan mare) she was only 14.3 as a 3yo and as so was of no interest to a racehorse trainer for jump racing. She had been sent to Tatts as a yearling and came home unsold (again because of her size). Therefore her breeder targetted her towards the sport horse market (she was well started but not backed). She has been very slow to mature, and would not I believe have stood up to NH training as a 4 or 5yo. Thankfully as a sport horse I was able to give her the time she needed. She is now 15.3.

My OH had an ex racehorse (ran 40 odd times up to the age of 11) who subsequently evented up to intermediate and never took a lame step until we retired him at 22. I wouldn't say that all ex racers out of training are definitely going to have soundness issues in the future. He did however have several management issues learnt in his racing days (cribbing, box walking, biting) which were challenging to manage in his life as a sport horse.

Fiona
 
I think I've got a good one - not my type ie. not a rangy NH chaser type, but probably much better suited to make the transition to eventing. I think the more old-fashioned eventer type TBs (ie. big NH horses) are probably more likely to find the transition physically more demanding, even though I prefer the type every time.

He didn't run until he was 4 (a minor injury when he was being broken as a 2yo meant that he was kicked back out into the field for 18mths which I think will have been a blessing in disguise). He then ran 3 times on the flat in 2 months (last twice and second to last once) after which it was decided that he was no racehorse.

He never left the ground while he was in training which means that I've been able to teach him to jump the way I want and he makes a lovely careful bascule over a fence - feels very special from the saddle. Amazingly he has a very balanced bouncy canter which is a lot more adaptable than a bigger NH type.

There's a lot of work to do yet but I see a lot more eventing promise in this flat-bred 16hh 4yo than in a whole yard of big gangly chasing drop-outs!

I bought him cheaply and am selling him fairly cheaply (certainly a lot more cheaply than I would, say, a Mill Law or Oppostion 4yo) mostly because I don't think people will get their wallets out readily for his breeding, regardless of his ability/potential. If a capable competent pro/good amateur bought him I'm sure he would go as far as he could. However he has no ambitions so if he spends the rest of his life tootling round BE90s then so be it - HE won't know that he's missed out or failed to fulfill his 'potential'.
 
I had a smashing 3 yr old for pre-training. Didn't prove to have the gears for the job when he went racing though and he is now eventing.
We currently have one TB eventing at Novice level and he is probably the most talented horse in the yard, but equally the the quirkiest and least consistent in the dressage and SJ, despite his amazing movement.

Was offered a Beneficial 6 yr old last year that wasn't quite cutting it racing although it had 2 pt to pt wins, and more recently been offered a Presenting filly. Thinking hard about the filly.
It really is hard to beat the speed and stamina of TBs.
 
The thoroughbred as a breed is extremely versatile and perfectly capable of competing at a high level in Eventing (which most people recognise) and indeed dressage (think Louis Feraud here).

However of course the significant majority of TB's are put into training (as that is obviously what they are bred for) and thus raced. How a horse is trained for racing is completely different to everything we look for in the other disciplines i.e. racehorse training puts a horse onto the forehand but for just about every other sport it is our life's mission to teach the horse to take weight behind!

So when a horse leaves the training environment, ignoring temperament/behavioural issues which usually resolve readily with management changes, etc. depending on how long the horse has been in training + whether it has had an injury (which may not be revealed until you come to up the workload - very typical sadly) this does then reflect on its ability to adjust to other sports at top level although it is perfectly capable of fulfilling the desires of the vast majority of the riders in the UK/.
 
very interesting, i love TB's and my last pony had run quite a few times on the flat and hurdled and though she was never straight forward she was the most atheletic nimble little thing, lovely paces and a very clean pop though it took blood sweat and tears to get her there which i appreciate you wouldnt be most peoples idea of fun! she wasnt easy and you really had to earn her trust but i was just getting there when she was so horribly taken from me :(

Just reading HH and apparently the horse william fox-pitts horse that won blenheim this week raced until 3 years ago in new zealand!! omg that is impressive for any horse to get to win a CCI*** after only 3 years training!! :)
 
Mickyjoe said:
I had a smashing 3 yr old for pre-training. Didn't prove to have the gears for the job when he went racing though and he is now eventing.
We currently have one TB eventing at Novice level and he is probably the most talented horse in the yard, but equally the the quirkiest and least consistent in the dressage and SJ, despite his amazing movement.

Was offered a Beneficial 6 yr old last year that wasn't quite cutting it racing although it had 2 pt to pt wins, and more recently been offered a Presenting filly. Thinking hard about the filly.
It really is hard to beat the speed and stamina of TBs.
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Like any breed there are TB's that are suitable and others that aren't. I don't think there is a "best" type for eventing because there are so many factors that make a good event horse - quality, soundness, temperament, trainability, stamina, movement, jumping ability, desire to do the job, scope, balance, etc. Some of these can be overcome, if missing, with the right rider but they are present in many breeds. What suits some riders will not suit others and that is not necessarily a reflection of that riders ability. To me it seems that there are probably more horses from NZ and Australia that have been in training and go on to make the grade at top level than over here. Maybe it is that there is more jump racing over here so some that might try eventing stay in racing or cost too much for our sport. I can think of several very decent racehorses that would have looked good at Badminton if they had been diverted, others certainly would not.

I am interested that you don't appear to have considered the Beneficial, as they are often a lovely pattern of horse and maybe, as a group, have more of an eventing mind than Presentings.
 
LEC said:
There are certain names that crop up time and time again in good NH horses and good eventers. Bustino and Busted are the two that I look for everytime. I just think they seem to produce the goods in stock that can jump.
Supreme Leader (In fact has Crepello twice in sire and dam line)
Presenting has busted in sire line and I love his stock!
Terimon.
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It's interesting (and nice to hear) that you mention Busted. He is my ex-racer's dam sire. :D I knew little of racing pedigrees when I bought my lad from a girl who had briefly restarted his training after she picked him up at Doncaster. I knew he was a very correct stamp and I loved his attitude to work. I had heard of his sire (Mark of Esteem) but the more I have dug about in TB pedigrees since I've had him the more I have noticed the prevalence of Busted in eventer's bloodlines. My lad is obviously very well bred but wasn't started until he was 4 and had a few wins but his heart wasn't in racing by the time he was sold at 7. He does, however, have a very good attitude to work and is very bold and I'm hoping that he'll make a cracking eventer - though I fear it may be me holding him back!!

I understand that horses who have raced may have had some wear and tear but I think that the same could be said for many of those who have come through the 'sport' route. I suspect my lad never saw a fence until he turned 7 whereas some of the horses out eventing will have been schooling over fences from a very young age. I don't think you can generalise one way or the other - you have to look at, and take each horse, on its individual merits.
 
oldvic said:
I am interested that you don't appear to have considered the Beneficial, as they are often a lovely pattern of horse and maybe, as a group, have more of an eventing mind than Presentings.
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Oh believe me I considered it. Really, really wanted it in fact, but with a full time job, and already up to my full quota of gee gees I wasn't in a position to take it then. :( Still regretting it to be honest. That is also why I am still only considering the filly.. Kept busy with my own lot at the moment and would prefer to be able to give it time.
 
oldvic said:
I am interested that you don't appear to have considered the Beneficial, as they are often a lovely pattern of horse and maybe, as a group, have more of an eventing mind than Presentings.
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Another Beneficial fan here! I worked with a small handfull of them in racing and they were all very similar and all would have made cracking eventers. Sometimes neurotic to handle on the ground, but brilliant once under saddle. I then bought one for myself to event . Sadly it didn't stay sound very long. Too much work, too young. My next mission is to buy an unbroken one by him, but, frustratingly the unbroken Beneficials usually make the top whack prices at the sales.
Beneficial actually shares v similar bloodlines to the sires of miners frolic, Marius , and winsome adante .
 
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