Thoughts on hanging cheek bits?!

[enchantedunicorn]

I need to change my bit! People have recommended a hanging cheek bit but is it a nice/gentle bit? I don't want the weakest bit in the world or anything like that but, I am concerned about the whole poll pressure thing? His current bit has been causing him alot of stress and discomfort - he is trying to work in a correct outline but can't get on the bit in it. It seems too slidey' and moves around too much in his mouth I'm hoping that a hanging cheek has a more fixed position in the horse's mouth and doesn't slide around! - is it a good bit?

 

[Mouse&Bay]

A hanging cheek and a baucher (or boucher) are the same. Here is a good read that will explain the action of the bit to you much better than I could!

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#loose-ring

 

[Tnavas]

There is absolutely no poll pressure with a hanging cheek. It's a lovely bit to use especially for a fussy mouthed horse. The fixed cheek holds the bit at the same angle all the time and also suspends the bit off the tongue.

It's action is very similar to a Fulmer but more elegant to look at.

 

[Tnavas]

A hanging cheek and a baucher (or boucher) are the same. Here is a good read that will explain the action of the bit to you much better than I could!

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#loose-ring

This web site is not very accurate and some of what is written is incorrect.

There is NEVER any poll pressure with a hanging cheek

 

[_HP_]

There is absolutely no poll pressure with a hanging cheek. It's a lovely bit to use especially for a fussy mouthed horse. The fixed cheek holds the bit at the same angle all the time and also suspends the bit off the tongue.

It's action is very similar to a Fulmer but more elegant to look at.

This...

Very useful bit

 

[Sam_J]

This web site is not very accurate and some of what is written is incorrect.

There is NEVER any poll pressure with a hanging cheek

I'm very interested in this as I'd always assumed that a hanging cheek has some poll action - could someone please explain further?

 

[apachediamond]

I'm very interested in this as I'd always assumed that a hanging cheek has some poll action - could someone please explain further?

My understanding is as there is no fixed point for the rein, leverage cannot be used against the poll. The rein will always move around within the ring.

I have J in a NS Baucher and he's a lot happier than he was in his loose ring lozenge.

 

[Tnavas]

I'm very interested in this as I'd always assumed that a hanging cheek has some poll action - could someone please explain further?

To get poll pressure the bit needs to be fixed in the mouth so that it can't move upwards with the rein pressure, it also requires that the rein be attached below the mouthpiece (on the shank) and not be moveable.

Poll pressure is achieved through the use of a curb chain which is also the fulcrum point of the bit.

When the reins are used the attachment being below the mouthpiece rotates the bit tightening the curbchain and keeping the bit held in one place. With the backward rotation of the shank the upper cheek part of the bit moves forward.

As the mouthpiece cannot move and the cheek piece & shank have rotated the pressure on the poll is exerted.

Only bits with a curbchain will create poll pressure, therefore, a Fulmer, Hanging Cheek snaffle and Dutch Gag cannot exert poll pressure.

The only time any of these could achieve any form of poll pressure is if the bit is fitted so high that when the rider uses the reins the bit hits the molar teeth. Hopefully we don't see that at any time.

 

[cptrayes]

Whether hanging cheek and Dutch gag bits create poll pressure is dependent upon how long the horse's mouth is in relation to the teeth, how high the teeth are in the mouth, how short the cheek pieces are, and what angle the horse is holding its head at. It is entirely possible for both types of bit to create poll pressure, and since a horse can feel a fly land on its poll, it needs only the most miniscule poll pressure for these bits to cause a reaction that other bits do not.

 

[Sam_J]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Tnavas and CPT. Tnavas, I'm still not sure I'm getting this. I accept that with a hanging cheek the rein isn't fixed, however surely once the rider puts backwards pressure on the rein, the rein will get to a certain spot and then not move any further. Does this not make the mouthpiece move backwards and thus the top of the bit (ie the loop where the cheekpiece is attached) move forwards, exerting poll pressure?

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to get it clear in my head...

 

[Tnavas]

Whether hanging cheek and Dutch gag bits create poll pressure is dependent upon how long the horse's mouth is in relation to the teeth, how high the teeth are in the mouth, how short the cheek pieces are, and what angle the horse is holding its head at. It is entirely possible for both types of bit to create poll pressure, and since a horse can feel a fly land on its poll, it needs only the most miniscule poll pressure for these bits to cause a reaction that other bits do not.

A little confusing - these bits don't in general normal, correctly fitted use create poll pressure.

My example above was an extreme - when under exceptional circumstances the horse fights enough that the bit reaches the back molars, where because the bit can go no further the upper cheek can tilt sufficiently forward as to create pressure.

There has been an American study that has proven the Baucher has no poll pressure.

 

[Tnavas]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Tnavas and CPT. Tnavas, I'm still not sure I'm getting this. I accept that with a hanging cheek the rein isn't fixed, however surely once the rider puts backwards pressure on the rein, the rein will get to a certain spot and then not move any further. Does this not make the mouthpiece move backwards and thus the top of the bit (ie the loop where the cheekpiece is attached) move forwards, exerting poll pressure?

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to get it clear in my head...

When the rider holds the rein the line of the rein is upwards from the horses mouth meaning that the rein at its attachment to the bit is level with or higher than the mouthpiece - the movement is backward but cannot exert any leverage.

As I stated above there was a study done in America a few years ago as this action was in dispute. It was proven beyond all doubt that there was no poll pressure exerted. I'm trying to find it on my computer, when I do I will post it.

The Baucher is dressage legal world wide and would not be so if it exerted undue influence on the horses head carriage.

 

[Sam_J]

So if we accept that it creates no poll pressure - what is the purpose of this type of bit? What is it meant to achieve?

 

[Tnavas]

So if we accept that it creates no poll pressure - what is the purpose of this type of bit? What is it meant to achieve?

It holds the bit up in the horses mouth maintaining a still position, the joint stays in place, normally the joint of a bit hangs downwards in the horses mouth and moves with the movement of the horses tongue.

It's also a great bit for those that like to try and get their tongue over the bit, it's very hard for them to do so as the bit is suspended. also good for those with very sensitive tongues.

 

[Sam_J]

Oh, okay - you live and learn Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[Tnavas]

Oh, okay - you live and learn Thanks for taking the time to reply.

You're welcome

 

[NaeNae87]

Here is an article on the action of a Baucher. It explains what Tnavas said, but also has pictures, diagrams and is written by Bit Bank.

http://bitbankaustralia.wordpress.c...ut-the-baucher-snaffle-bit-rattling-the-cage/

 

[Tnavas]

Here is an article on the action of a Baucher. It explains what Tnavas said, but also has pictures, diagrams and is written by Bit Bank.

http://bitbankaustralia.wordpress.c...ut-the-baucher-snaffle-bit-rattling-the-cage/

Great report, now have a look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmikY9kRhI

Now circulating around my Pony Club contacts. A friend and I have recently won a very long battle with NZPCA to allow the Baucher in Mounted Games - the committee were adamant that it had poll pressure - we finally won and we can now use the bit.

Its a really great bit.

 

[TarrSteps]

So if we accept that it creates no poll pressure - what is the purpose of this type of bit? What is it meant to achieve?

It was invented (or promoted, depending on who you believe) by, oddly enough, a man named Baucher, one of the leading lights of the French Light school. The point of the design is to make the bit as neutral as possible when the horse is going correctly in the context of that training system - when the horse is in the right place, doing the right things, the bit literally hangs still in the mouth with no tongue or bar pressure. That's the idea anyway.

Technically a Baucher is a single jointed mouthpiece but the name has been co-opted to describe any hanging cheek bit.

 

[cptrayes]

Here is an article on the action of a Baucher. It explains what Tnavas said, but also has pictures, diagrams and is written by Bit Bank.

http://bitbankaustralia.wordpress.c...ut-the-baucher-snaffle-bit-rattling-the-cage/

Just my opinion, until the scientific evidence is produced.

That article states that it may apply poll pressure but it will be very mild. And since the horse can feel a fly land on its poll, then it can feel that. It makes no allowance for the resistance to slip of leather on metal, nor for the position of the horses head, or teeth in its explanation of how there is no poll pressure. Horses know when we are carrying whips and many go forward more even if we don't use them. If the horse knows that this bit will get very uncomfortable for him if he raises his head, hitting his teeth and then exerting poll pressure, then some horses will be affected by that knowledge.


Ps can't watch the video, sorry, got a broadband line as good as wet string this morning.

 

[NaeNae87]

The video actually supports the article. It shows a Boucher hooked up to a bridle with a scale and tare which measures the amount of pressure applied through the cheek pieces to the poll when the reins are used.

 

[cptrayes]

I've seen the video now, and I'm sorry, but any physicist would laugh themselves silly at the idea that it proves there is no poll pressure on a hanging cheek fitted to a bridle with half inch leather cheek pieces. There is simply no comparison between the resistance supplied by a thin metal hook and that of half an inch of leather in a small eye attachment.

There is no doubt that the poll action is minimal, but if they can feel a fly, they can feel a hanging cheek, imo.

 

[cptrayes]

The video is also making a huge assumption that because the cheek piece bunches and lessens the pressure at the cheek piece, that the pressure at the poll is also less. This is not the case, and the bit cannot rise in the mouth and create the bunching of the cheek piece unless there is an equal pressure at the poll to that which created the rise in the bit. This is simple physics.

Without a direct upward pressure, in order to create slack in a line, there must be an equal downward pressure from the top.

The only way to measure this is with a pressure pad at the poll.

 

[Tnavas]

The video is also making a huge assumption that because the cheek piece bunches and lessens the pressure at the cheek piece, that the pressure at the poll is also less. This is not the case, and the bit cannot rise in the mouth and create the bunching of the cheek piece unless there is an equal pressure at the poll to that which created the rise in the bit. This is simple physics.

Without a direct upward pressure, in order to create slack in a line, there must be an equal downward pressure from the top.

The only way to measure this is with a pressure pad at the poll.

The pressure may not be less but it doesn't increase!!

If the cheek pieces bag when the rein is used the bit is no longer being suspended by the cheek pieces in the horses mouth = there can be no increase in pressure on the poll as no additional force is being exerted.

 

[cptrayes]

The pressure may not be less but it doesn't increase!!

If the cheek pieces bag when the rein is used the bit is no longer being suspended by the cheek pieces in the horses mouth = there can be no increase in pressure on the poll as no additional force is being exerted.

The laws of physics demand that unless the horse is holding the bit up with his tongue, or the rider with his reins, that the downward pressure at the poll must equal the upward pressure at the mouth for the cheek piece to bunch outwards.

Newton' s third law:
'For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction'

To prove this, take a nice flexible riding crop. Place one hand on top and one hand at the bottom. Now, bend that riding crop without increasing the pressure from your top hand. It's not possible.

While the hanging cheek exerts nowhere near that amount of pressure, it still exerts as least as much as a fly, and the horse can feel it, and responds to it.

 

[Billy the kid]

All bits are the same strength; untill the rider pulls on the reins.......

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Sorry CPT I think you've misapplied the theory.

It's within the laws of physics for things to 'bag' without an equal pressure being applied to the top and bottom at the same time. When a headpiece is over the poll, you have gravity pulling it down, hence why when the cheekpieces go baggy, the headpiece doesn't float upwards until the cheekpieces are taught again.

The horse will have the weight of the bridle and bit on it's poll - which the horse will undoubtedly feel, but's that's the same with all bridles and all bridles weigh more than a fly - but when the cheeks are baggy, you don't get more pressure on the poll as it's the weight of the headpiece that keeps it down, touching the poll. If you put a finger under the headpiece (while the other hand was putting pressure on the reins, that caused the cheeks to bag), you could easily lift it up a bit with less pressure than was being applied to the reins.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I forgot to add that bridles aren't normally made of stiff fibreglass like the inside of a modern whip.

 

[Goldenstar]

All bits are the same strength; untill the rider pulls on the reins.......

Not exactly right .
The thickness and type of mouthpiece has a profound effect on the comfort of the horse by just being in the mouth.
A horse with say a far to thick mouth piece for the conformation of its mouth will feel unhappy just wearing the bridle .

 

[Billy the kid]

Not exactly right .
The thickness and type of mouthpiece has a profound effect on the comfort of the horse by just being in the mouth.
A horse with say a far to thick mouth piece for the conformation of its mouth will feel unhappy just wearing the bridle .

true; but you get the idea of what im saying?

Plus comfort of it being in the mouth isnt really the same as the strength of it caused by force from the rider. A rider using a snaffle can be harsher than a rider using a pelham if they are used wrongly.