Thoughts on hanging cheek bits?!

[Casey76]

There is no leverage point on a Baucher (btw, ALWAYS spelled with an "a", it is named after the inventor). Unless you were to fix the rein below the mouthpiece (e.g. like with a slotted kimberwick), it doesn't matter how long the cheeks are, there is still no appreciable poll pressure.

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry CPT I think you've misapplied the theory.

It's within the laws of physics for things to 'bag' without an equal pressure being applied to the top and bottom at the same time. When a headpiece is over the poll, you have gravity pulling it down, hence why when the cheekpieces go baggy, the headpiece doesn't float upwards until the cheekpieces are taught again.

The horse will have the weight of the bridle and bit on it's poll - which the horse will undoubtedly feel, but's that's the same with all bridles and all bridles weigh more than a fly - but when the cheeks are baggy, you don't get more pressure on the poll as it's the weight of the headpiece that keeps it down, touching the poll. If you put a finger under the headpiece (while the other hand was putting pressure on the reins, that caused the cheeks to bag), you could easily lift it up a bit with less pressure than was being applied to the reins.

I don't believe I am misapplying the theory, and until someone does pressure tests at the poll I will stick to my belief that the hanging cheek creates a very small amount of poll pressure, that the horse can feel.

 

[cptrayes]

There is no leverage point on a Baucher (btw, ALWAYS spelled with an "a", it is named after the inventor). Unless you were to fix the rein below the mouthpiece (e.g. like with a slotted kimberwick), it doesn't matter how long the cheeks are, there is still no appreciable poll pressure.

It is very clear that there IS a leverage point, otherwise in the video the bit would not rotate and the eye swing forward.

 

[Cortez]

Whatever. Some horses go really happily in a Baucher snaffle that do not do so in other bits, and this includes hoses with really sensitive mouths. I am inclined to think that it is the stability of this type of bit that pleases some horses; the pressure vs no pressure argument is largely irrelevant IMO as long as the horse is happy.

 

[Tnavas]

I don't believe I am misapplying the theory, and until someone does pressure tests at the poll I will stick to my belief that the hanging cheek creates a very small amount of poll pressure, that the horse can feel.

I usually have great respect for your comments but feel you are just being obstinate by clinging to your theory that there is poll pressure.

There will be a basic weight on the poll because of the weight of the bridle - any bridle, head collar etc. however the video shows quite clearly that there is negative torque when the rein is used.

The cheek pieces bag, which means that the bit has lifted at the corners of the mouth - the normal action of any bit with a joint not held down by a curb chain. This is why the bit tips as it does because of the way it is balanced. It is not a sign of leverage, leverage comes from below as in a curb.

If I remember correctly, the article I have referred to measures the pressure at the poll. I cannot find my copy so have asked a friend to email me one. On its strength we won a battle with NZ Pony Club to allow its use in Mounted Games.

 

[Tnavas]

Whatever. Some horses go really happily in a Baucher snaffle that do not do so in other bits, and this includes hoses with really sensitive mouths. I am inclined to think that it is the stability of this type of bit that pleases some horses; the pressure vs no pressure argument is largely irrelevant IMO as long as the horse is happy.

You are so right, many horses really go well in it, and if you are like me who uses a Fulmer it is a good replacement to use in the show ring.

We are discussing the action of the bit which has been very controversial and inaccurate.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

RE your fight to get them approved for mounted games - the Baucher comfort snaffle that I have (with no port) is Dressage legal here.

 

[cptrayes]

I usually have great respect for your comments but feel you are just being obstinate by clinging to your theory that there is poll pressure.

How does that differ from your own obstinacy in sticking to your assertion that there is none, with no evidence ??? At least I have Newton on my side

This is why the bit tips as it does because of the way it is balanced. It is not a sign of leverage, leverage comes from below as in a curb.

The bit CANNOT tip without leverage. If you think it can, please explain to me how? What causes it to rotate around the mouthpiece so that the eye goes forward, if there is no leverage?

 

[Tnavas]

How does that differ from your own obstinacy in sticking to your assertion that there is none, with no evidence ??? At least I have Newton on my side



The bit CANNOT tip without leverage. If you think it can, please explain to me how? What causes it to rotate around the mouthpiece so that the eye goes forward, if there is no leverage?

I have read the proof and seen the video and have also experimented myself with my own horse in a Baucher.

Faracat tha Baucher is dressage legal here, just the old PC biddies here in NZ were totally determined that it created poll pressure. We also have the same problem with the Show Hunter committee too. A work in progress


Off course it can tip! The bit is top heavy! The moment the rider uses the reins the bit folds at its joint and rises backwards towards the lips,

 

[almost_mozart]

I am the creator of the Boucher (I know the spelling is incorrect; but old habits die hard) video.

The scale on the cheeks demonstrates that the tension in the bridle decreases, and therefore pressure behind the poll will also decrease. You could quantify the exact number by putting a scale beneath the crown, but the cheek scale measure is sufficient to show that there is no increase in poll pressure, and thus the "conventional wisdom" of a Boucher bit is in error.

(Think of it; when you pull back on a standard loose ring snaffle, the cheeks will bunch--or the bit will lift off of the headstall--in a similar fashion, yet obviously no poll pressure is occurring here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCMCuyQ9exk)

I could not film and measure with the leather cheek piece in place on the bit, as I had no way to rig my scale. However, if you watch portions of my video posted by Tnavas, you can see that the same bunching of the cheeks is occurring, it is just not being demonstrated electronically. Or you can watch the first version of the video, which used Pelhams (but demonstrates the same principle--the bit lifts up, slackening the cheeks and thereby decreasing poll pressure): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyzEXQhJqs
And a slow motion version, that actually shows the bit lifting off of the headstall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzKa7hCbcCs

 

[Tnavas]

I am the creator of the Boucher (I know the spelling is incorrect; but old habits die hard) video.

The scale on the cheeks demonstrates that the tension in the bridle decreases, and therefore pressure behind the poll will also decrease. You could quantify the exact number by putting a scale beneath the crown, but the cheek scale measure is sufficient to show that there is no increase in poll pressure, and thus the "conventional wisdom" of a Boucher bit is in error.

(Think of it; when you pull back on a standard loose ring snaffle, the cheeks will bunch--or the bit will lift off of the headstall--in a similar fashion, yet obviously no poll pressure is occurring here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCMCuyQ9exk)

I could not film and measure with the leather cheek piece in place on the bit, as I had no way to rig my scale. However, if you watch portions of my video posted by Tnavas, you can see that the same bunching of the cheeks is occurring, it is just not being demonstrated electronically. Or you can watch the first version of the video, which used Pelhams (but demonstrates the same principle--the bit lifts up, slackening the cheeks and thereby decreasing poll pressure): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyzEXQhJqs
And a slow motion version, that actually shows the bit lifting off of the headstall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzKa7hCbcCs

Thanks so much for your video, I've battled with the powers that be for some time and it was great to see that someone else had actually proved what I have said all along. I sent the link to your video round our Pony Club data base of emails, so hopefully at exams I will no longer be told the Baucher has poll pressure.

 

[almost_mozart]

Many have disagreed even after seeing the video.

To them I say--I am certainly not the be all and end all, either of horsemanship or of Physics. Feel free to disprove my conclusion, but if you're going to make claims to the contrary, you had better have some kind of objective measure to demonstrate a factual basis for your stance, rather than making unsubstantiated, subjective claims. So far no one has stepped up to the plate....

 

[Tnavas]

Many have disagreed even after seeing the video.

To them I say--I am certainly not the be all and end all, either of horsemanship or of Physics. Feel free to disprove my conclusion, but if you're going to make claims to the contrary, you had better have some kind of objective measure to demonstrate a factual basis for your stance, rather than making unsubstantiated, subjective claims. So far no one has stepped up to the plate....

It's the same with the 'single jointed snaffles dig into the roof of the mouth' brigade, Hilary Clayton has proved that they don't yet getting people to believe so is hard.

Getting people to understand that double jointed bits can also be a real problem and that the length of the centre part is crucial, too long and the two individual joints bruise the bars.

I still break all mine in a Fulmer, and drop. The Fulmer has exactly the same action as the Baucher but is a tidier looking bit, and I use that for shows.

I have tried explaining that there can only be poll pressure when the bit is held in place in the mouth eg by the curb chain and that the rein is fixed below the level of the mouthpiece. It's so easy to see that I cannot understand why some people can be so pedantic about the supposed poll pressure action of the Baucher.

 

[almost_mozart]

I did not make this graphic (credit goes to 2fishstudios), but I think it demonstrates the action pretty well. The Boucher *lifts* as it rotates, which negates the supposed lever action.