Thoughts on ITV report - foxes being fed by hunt caught on video

MerrySherryRider

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The North Cotswold Hunt and the MHA refuse to comment because they are above the law. They have utter contempt for the laws of the land. Little has changed since the hunting ban, time and time again, hunts are filmed acting illegally but until the crown prosecution service bothers to do anything about it, this nasty practice will continue.
 

Dry Rot

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twiggy2

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Not a mockery if you know anything about dogs and dog training. I wonder how someone would go about training a gundog without game?

training a gun dog is very far removed from 'training' a dog to stay with its pack and hunt and kill what they have been bred for generations to do-in fact I am not sure I would describe it as training
 

Alec Swan

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So a Pack are criticised if they hunt a fox, and they're also condemned if they feed them. When will the loony HSA and their disciples polarise their thinking and arguments and so form a degree of logic, I wonder?

Alec.
 

Sandstone1

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If foxes are vermin and such a pest to farmers that they need to be controlled by the hunt,why on earth feed them and encourage them if not just to provide sport?
Just a honest question as it seems mad to me.
 

Maesfen

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If foxes are vermin and such a pest to farmers that they need to be controlled by the hunt,why on earth feed them and encourage them if not just to provide sport?
Just a honest question as it seems mad to me.

We are very pro hunting BUT we are also very pro conservation too; we (meaning my family, not the hunt) always give fox his supper, sometimes he brings his friend and they are a delight to see but we do have an ulterior motive too. If we didn't encourage them to feed in this area (which luckily for us, is a no shooting area - at least if it's done, it's done by poachers without permission, not the locals) then it makes sense to encourage them 'over the border' where they are safer rather than them risk being shot. We do not do it for the sport but every area needs a healthy fox population and sometimes they need help.
Now ask me about badgers and I'd gladly shoot the lot of them, they are a real pest which has no natural predator and that cause far more damage to both property and other wildlife; they are the real farmer's pest, far more than any fox even if they have sheep and hens.
 

dogatemysalad

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So a Pack are criticised if they hunt a fox, and they're also condemned if they feed them. When will the loony HSA and their disciples polarise their thinking and arguments and so form a degree of logic, I wonder?

Alec.

Come, come Alec, lets not insult everyone's intelligence. It is well documented that hunts not only feed foxes but they have a long established practice of using artificial earths to encourage the fox population for better hunting. It's not a secret.
 

cptrayes

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Come, come Alec, lets not insult everyone's intelligence. It is well documented that hunts not only feed foxes but they have a long established practice of using artificial earths to encourage the fox population for better hunting. It's not a secret.


You won't get through to Alec, he also agrees with feeding birds so people can shoot them only half dead out of the sky.
 

cptrayes

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We are very pro hunting BUT we are also very pro conservation too; we (meaning my family, not the hunt) always give fox his supper, sometimes he brings his friend and they are a delight to see but we do have an ulterior motive too. If we didn't encourage them to feed in this area (which luckily for us, is a no shooting area - at least if it's done, it's done by poachers without permission, not the locals) then it makes sense to encourage them 'over the border' where they are safer rather than them risk being shot. We do not do it for the sport but every area needs a healthy fox population and sometimes they need help.


Maesfen are you keeping them safe from shooters by enticing them into an area with a mounted hunt?
 

Maesfen

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When you hunt within the law that doesn't make a blind bit of difference. It's the same with the local wild duck. We do have a lot of local shoots that will blast anything and all that it can out of extinction if they could which is why we feed the local wild duck population on our local pits, simply because we like to see them, it gives them a chance of not ending up on a plate. I don't mind shooting as a sport for the pot, it's simply when they never know when to leave alone; they just don't accept that if they wipe them out they won't see them again.
 

Dry Rot

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training a gun dog is very far removed from 'training' a dog to stay with its pack and hunt and kill what they have been bred for generations to do-in fact I am not sure I would describe it as training

So you've trained a few gundogs then, have you? And hunted a pack of hounds?:)
 

cptrayes

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When you hunt within the law that doesn't make a blind bit of difference. It's the same with local wild duck. We do have a lot of local shoots that will blast anything and all that it can out of extinction if they could which is why we feed the local wild duck population on our local pits, simply because we like to see them, it gives them a chance of not ending up on a plate. I don't mind shooting as a sport for the pot, it's simply when they never know when to leave alone; they just don't accept that if they wipe them out they won't see them again.

No, if you are hunting within the law it doesn't. The problem is that not one of the hunts which are in reach of me, and several others I know of outside my area, are not hunting within the law.

I do not like any form of shooting flying birds where death is routinely delayed until after the bird has been shot out of the sky. At the moment it is legal. I don't think that will always be the case, we do not allow any other animals to be killed to eat in such an inhumane fashion, never mind for fun.
 

MerrySherryRider

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I admit we always throw dead rabbits into the wood for whatever's passing to eat .

Do you also create artificial earths and then return with hounds where you leave the rabbits ? Lets not be silly about this. I've fed an injured vixen for a few days until she was back on four legs. She lives in a hunt free zone.
 

cptrayes

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So you've trained a few gundogs then, have you? And hunted a pack of hounds?:)


I am puzzled, Dry Rot.


Why would you need to have done either to be able to say that training a dog to fetch a grounded bird and bring it to you is a wildly different training exercise than putting some young dogs with some older dogs and taking them hunting, or ringing a wood with people making noises to keep the fox cubs inside the wood and then putting young hounds in to chase and kill them?

I don't know how to fly a jumbo jet, helicopter or a microlight, but I feel fully competent to state that the training required for each is very different :)
 
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ester

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If foxes are vermin and such a pest to farmers that they need to be controlled by the hunt,why on earth feed them and encourage them if not just to provide sport?
Just a honest question as it seems mad to me.

Conversely they are presumably much less of a pest to farmers (chickens/lambs etc) if they are being fed elsewhere perhaps?
 

Maesfen

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we do not allow any other animals to be killed to eat in such an inhumane fashion, never mind for fun.


Oh come on, do you forget about Halal but that's OK, it's all done for a religion that doesn't even belong to this country I suppose let alone the fact that the majority of British people find it the most inhumane way to slaughter for meat. I know farmers that travel many miles to a suitable abattoir rather than use the one nearest them because it's gone over to being Halal only. People expect farmers to have the highest standards of welfare, there's hue and cry when they don't but nobody bats an eye at the cruelty of Halal at the end of the line because that hits their pocket instead of the farmer's.

Sorry, off soap box now.
 

Alec Swan

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I am puzzled, Dry Rot.


Why would you need to have done either to be able to say that training a dog to fetch a grounded bird and bring it to you is a wildly different training exercise than putting some young dogs with some older dogs and taking them hunting, or ringing a wood with people making noises to keep the fox cubs inside the wood and then putting young hounds in to chase and kill them?

I don't know how to fly a jumbo jet, helicopter or a microlight, but I feel fully competent to state that the training required for each is very different :)

Para 1; I'm not, it made perfect sense.

Para 2; I can't accept that, and even though I don't and have never ridden to hounds, it has always been my understanding that 'Cubbing' is about entering young hounds and educating both the young entry and cubs and to suggest that a covert would be surrounded by the mounted field to prevent the escape of cubs would and SHOULD be unthinkable. There are times when foxes need to be held up and Cubbing is not such a time.

Para 3; Your knowledge of hunting is as pertinent as your experience of piloting any aircraft. I understand that your views are born of inexperience, but stating fact when you are so clearly wrong, does little to further your claims.

This isn't an attack aimed at you cpt, but your rather skewed propositions.

Alec.
 

cptrayes

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Para 1; I'm not, it made perfect sense.

Para 2; I can't accept that, and even though I don't and have never ridden to hounds, it has always been my understanding that 'Cubbing' is about entering young hounds and educating both the young entry and cubs and to suggest that a covert would be surrounded by the mounted field to prevent the escape of cubs would and SHOULD be unthinkable. There are times when foxes need to be held up and Cubbing is not such a time.

Para 3; Your knowledge of hunting is as pertinent as your experience of piloting any aircraft. I understand that your views are born of inexperience, but stating fact when you are so clearly wrong, does little to further your claims.

This isn't an attack aimed at you cpt, but your rather skewed propositions.

Alec.


I have been cubbing with the Berkely and that is EXACTLY how it was done!
 

cptrayes

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Oh come on, do you forget about Halal but that's OK, it's all done for a religion that doesn't even belong to this country I suppose let alone the fact that the majority of British people find it the most inhumane way to slaughter for meat. I know farmers that travel many miles to a suitable abattoir rather than use the one nearest them because it's gone over to being Halal only. People expect farmers to have the highest standards of welfare, there's hue and cry when they don't but nobody bats an eye at the cruelty of Halal at the end of the line because that hits their pocket instead of the farmer's.

Sorry, off soap box now.

I believe that most Halal meat is now pre stunned and there is an ongoing campaign to have all halal meat pre stunned.

Even then, I don't personally think you can compare it with bringing a bird out of the sky half dead to flap about on the ground before a dog picks it up and carries it to a human to have its neck wrung, especially not when done for fun.
 

twiggy2

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So you've trained a few gundogs then, have you? And hunted a pack of hounds?:)

many dogs yes including gun dogs although not training them to the gun, I have taught/teach retrieve, search, sent work, tracking, puppies and obedience, dabbled with agility but that really dd nothing for me. I have terriers and a lurcher and have been out with experienced lurcher men and their dogs. letting a young dog learn its trade from the pack and following its instinct is not to my mind training-ie chuck a new terrier puppy in the pack is very different to trining a dog to go alone sent/find and retrieve. I have also been out with the mink hounds and the master is a relation so I am aware of what goes inoto getting them out working and from what the master says they just add one or two young dogs to the pack on a public hunt and they learn from the rest and follow the pack.

so no I have not hunted a pack of hounds but have many times accompanied a working pack be it terriers, mink hounds or lurchers and terriers working together. I also beat and have friends that have pheasant and duck shoots so am more than aware what it takes to train a gun dog as I have taught the dogs away from the gun with the view to progressing to the gun and when the progression has been made with a gun dog trainer I have often attended to further my knowledge and out of interest.
 

twiggy2

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it has always been my understanding that 'Cubbing' is about entering young hounds and educating both the young entry and cubs
Alec.

the education for the young hounds is to encourage drive by giving them easier prey and a positive experience by the fact that the kill is fairly easy if they catch-they are more likely to catch and fitness is increased along the way, cubbing is mainly for fitness and bonding the pack, I don't think the cubs learn anything other than to fear the sound of the hunt if they are lucky enough to survive the day.
 

Dry Rot

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I am puzzled, Dry Rot.


Why would you need to have done either to be able to say that training a dog to fetch a grounded bird and bring it to you is a wildly different training exercise than putting some young dogs with some older dogs and taking them hunting, or ringing a wood with people making noises to keep the fox cubs inside the wood and then putting young hounds in to chase and kill them?

I don't know how to fly a jumbo jet, helicopter or a microlight, but I feel fully competent to state that the training required for each is very different :)

My post was not directed to you, CPT, as I know you have superior intelligence to most of us here. I recall your post some time ago on a hunting thread stating that you knew all about cub hunting because you'd been!:D

You say, "I don't know how to fly a jumbo jet, helicopter or a microlight, but I feel fully competent to state that the training required for each is very different :)". Of course you do, dear. And I haven't a single doubt that you could do all three after just reading the brochure!
 
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Orangehorse

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"I believe that most Halal meat is now pre stunned and there is an ongoing campaign to have all halal meat pre stunned."

Mm, doubtful, knowing all the background.

Feeding the foxes. Well they are not filmed hunting the foxes, so nothing wrong has been done. As for why, who knows?
 
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cptrayes

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My post was not directed to you, CPT, as I know you have superior intelligence to most of us here. I recall your post some time ago on a hunting thread stating that you knew all about cub hunting because you'd been!:D

You say, "I don't know how to fly a jumbo jet, helicopter or a microlight, but I feel fully competent to state that the training required for each is very different :)". Of course you do, dear. And I haven't a single doubt that you could do all three after just reading the brochure!

Are you always this patronising to women who can argue you under the table sweetheart :D ?
 

marianne1981

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When defending fox hunting, the answer is ALWAYS something along the lines of the fact that they "need" to be controlled. They either need controlling or they dont... the evidence in this video is stacked up against you and yet not one pro has condemned the actions, even when the evidence is staring you in the face. I would have more respect for your argument if you said hey - this is wrong!!!
 

AdorableAlice

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Yet again a vast amount of rubbish being spouted by people who have no knowledge of the countryside, farming, land and wildlife management.

Frightening ignorance.
 

cptrayes

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Yet again a vast amount of rubbish being spouted by people who have no knowledge of the countryside, farming, land and wildlife management.

Frightening ignorance.

Could you explain what anyone has posted which is incorrect Alice? And correct their ignorance.
 
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