Thoughts on ITV report - foxes being fed by hunt caught on video

[cptrayes]

Not worth the effort, all it will turn into is town v countryside.

I find that argument both trite and patronising. There are plenty of country people who do not agree with hunting with hounds or shooting birds.

 

[Alec Swan]

Yet again a vast amount of rubbish being spouted by people who have no knowledge of the countryside, farming, land and wildlife management.

Frightening ignorance.

I'd add to that; Now that Hunting as it was previously carried out, is banned, there are those who fail to understand that it's the Fox which has suffered. When there were preserves and when Hunting was considered to be an honourable system of management, there was tolerance and harmony. Now the hand of every oick with a FAC has turned his hand against the Fox, and as a species, the animal no longer enjoys his privileged and exalted position.

It's the Fox as an animal who has suffered the most from this ridiculous and Class based bigotry.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

I'd add to that; Now that Hunting as it was previously carried out, is banned, there are those who fail to understand that it's the Fox which has suffered. When there were preserves and when Hunting was considered to be an honourable system of management, there was tolerance and harmony. Now the hand of every oick with a FAC has turned his hand against the Fox, and as a species, the animal no longer enjoys his privileged and exalted position.

It's the Fox as an animal who has suffered the most from this ridiculous and Class based bigotry.

Alec.

Good grief Alec, do you read Mills and Boon too?


There were plenty of areas like mine that were never fox hunted by hounds you know!

 

[Alec Swan]

……..


There were plenty of areas like mine that were never fox hunted by hounds you know!

I feel quite sure that if you do your research, you'll find that once upon a time there was a resident pack in Wapping. It must have been Wapping as that's where most of your poorly researched and claimed knowledge seems to originate from.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

I feel quite sure that if you do your research, you'll find that once upon a time there was a resident pack in Wapping. It must have been Wapping as that's where most of your poorly researched and claimed knowledge seems to originate from.

Alec.

What knowledge that I have expressed in this thread are you saying is incorrect?

 

[marianne1981]

The level of ignorance displayed by some pro hunt people on here is shocking!! Is Alec for real or just a consistent troll on here, belittling/mocking anyone who does not share his opinion!

 

[AdorableAlice]

Hunting provides employment to many and makes money for many. People produce hunters that sell for a lot of money. I vaguely remember seeing your signature picture on an advert recently with the horse being targeted at the market for huntsman or whip's horse, about a week ago I think.

A repeal is much needed, bovine tb needs addressing with a countrywide cull of badgers, milk payments need reviewing. The countryside and it's associated activities is an industry and deserves far more understanding and respect.

 

[twiggy2]

Hunting provides employment to many and makes money for many.

so does dog fighting, it does not make it right Alice.

bovine tb needs addressing with a countrywide cull of badgers, milk payments need reviewing. The countryside and it's associated activities is an industry and deserves far more understanding and respect.

what does this have to do with this thread topic?

 

[AdorableAlice]

so does dog fighting, it does not make it right Alice.

bovine tb needs addressing with a countrywide cull of badgers, milk payments need reviewing. The countryside and it's associated activities is an industry and deserves far more understanding and respect.

what does this have to do with this thread topic?

I give in.

 

[cptrayes]

Hunting provides employment to many and makes money for many. People produce hunters that sell for a lot of money. I vaguely remember seeing your signature picture on an advert recently with the horse being targeted at the market for huntsman or whip's horse, about a week ago I think.

.

Yes Alice, when I sold him six months ago he was an awesome DRAG Hunter. It is not me selling him now, it is the man who bought him.

 

[cptrayes]

Hunting provides employment to many and makes money for many.

And in spite of dire warnings about unemployed farriers and livery owners etc, by the Countryside Alliance, in the first years of the ban, when it was widely adhered to, numbers of people hunting INCREASED.

 

[Alec Swan]

And in spite of dire warnings about unemployed farriers and livery owners etc, by the Countryside Alliance, in the first years of the ban, when it was widely adhered to, numbers of people hunting INCREASED.

So what would that tell us? Either that the criminal and/or rebellious aspect of those who live a truly rural existence, is on the increase, or-(and possibly)-and, that those who live within and embrace the countryside, are sick of those who with neither understanding nor care, would tell them that they 'mustn't'. Either way the neauvou-arrives, would be better advised to either return from whence they came, or embrace the rural lifestyle which most seem to find acceptable.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

So what would that tell us? Either that the criminal and/or rebellious aspect of those who live a truly rural existence, is on the increase, or-(and possibly)-and, that those who live within and embrace the countryside, are sick of those who with neither understanding nor care, would tell them that they 'mustn't'. Either way the neauvou-arrives, would be better advised to either return from whence they came, or embrace the rural lifestyle which most seem to find acceptable.

Alec.

Well actually, Alec, it told me that there was a large latent and unfulfilled demand for drag hunting.

It will be interesting to see if numbers fall again now that there is widespread hunting of fox again.

Honestly Alec, the way you write, You would think there wasn't a countryside worker in the whole of the UK who didn't support hunting foxes with hounds and blasting birds out of the sky half dead.

 

[Bernster]

So what would that tell us? Either that the criminal and/or rebellious aspect of those who live a truly rural existence, is on the increase, or-(and possibly)-and, that those who live within and embrace the countryside, are sick of those who with neither understanding nor care, would tell them that they 'mustn't'. Either way the neauvou-arrives, would be better advised to either return from whence they came, or embrace the rural lifestyle which most seem to find acceptable.

Alec.

Uhm, slightly nervous of entering into this debate but I do think it's worth at least being open to the possibility that some people have joined hunting post-ban because they weren't in support of hunting foxes, and do support post-ban hunting. Equally I suspect you have a point, that others have joined to show their support and are against the ban.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Hunting provides employment to many and makes money for many.

So does child porn. Fortunately, like hunting, its illegal no matter how much money it makes.

 

[Orangehorse]

Uhm, slightly nervous of entering into this debate but I do think it's worth at least being open to the possibility that some people have joined hunting post-ban because they weren't in support of hunting foxes, and do support post-ban hunting. Equally I suspect you have a point, that others have joined to show their support and are against the ban.

This absolutely! My OH (farmer) wasn't every too happy about the hunt coming across as we are on heavy clay and they do make a mess. However, since "the ban" he welcomes them with open arms.

Also, I do agree that people didn't support the hunting of foxes have joined in.

What I think we can all agree with is that the legistlation was a complete mess and there all hunts declare that they "hunt within the law" but there seems to be a huge difference in how they go about it. There is one local hunt that goes trail hunting, since it is on the urban fringe I think they probably have a more relaxed day. Other hunts race around with a bird of prey in a box, and will dig out and shoot foxes and the field seems to have a nice enough day with galloping around and jumping.

 

[sandi_84]

This will probably sound rude and I don't mean it to be, I know it's not directly on topic but with regards to those that have issues with bird shoots and I think "shooting them half dead out of the sky" was said. I'm just interested to know how else it could be done, as I have taken part (non shooting, just collecting) in a local duck shoot.

I'm not sure how it's done elsewhere but everyone who shot took home a portion of the shot ducks. The ones who were shot but not killed instantly were dispatched as soon as possible - and it was pretty quick I promise! - I know this as I was part of the collect and dispatch team although tbh I only dispatched one myself as I'd never done it before. I even got 2 ducks to take home for taking part even though I never fired a shot and plucked and de-breasted them myself. They made for a very lovely treat for dinner. I'm against animal cruelty but nothing on the shoot that I witnessed was cruel IMO.

I can't comment on fox hunting as I have 0 experience or knowledge.

 

[Maesfen]

Not rude at all Sandi and that is exactly how it's been and should be done on a professional shoot; very unlike the sensationalist comment of shooting them half dead out of the sky, but hey ho, everyone likes a bit of sensationalism in here; you just have to learn not to bite!

 

[cptrayes]

This will probably sound rude and I don't mean it to be, I know it's not directly on topic but with regards to those that have issues with bird shoots and I think "shooting them half dead out of the sky" was said. I'm just interested to know how else it could be done, as I have taken part (non shooting, just collecting) in a local duck shoot.

I'm not sure how it's done elsewhere but everyone who shot took home a portion of the shot ducks. The ones who were shot but not killed instantly were dispatched as soon as possible - and it was pretty quick I promise! - I know this as I was part of the collect and dispatch team although tbh I only dispatched one myself as I'd never done it before. I even got 2 ducks to take home for taking part even though I never fired a shot and plucked and de-breasted them myself. They made for a very lovely treat for dinner. I'm against animal cruelty but nothing on the shoot that I witnessed was cruel IMO.

I can't comment on fox hunting as I have 0 experience or knowledge.

You don't think it's cruel to deliberately cause a bird to fall out of the sky hurt but not dead, and be picked up by a dog? For fun?

I am open to the persuasion that it is the most humane way of culling bird poulations which must be culled, but around here they are breeding birds simply so that people can have the fun of shooting them.

 

[minesadouble]

I'd rather have the life of a pheasant 'shot half dead out of the sky' than that of a mass produced chicken destined for the supermarket shelf. I know which I think is more inhumane!

 

[sandi_84]

You don't think it's cruel to deliberately cause a bird to fall out of the sky hurt but not dead, and be picked up by a dog? For fun?

I am open to the persuasion that it is the most humane way of culling bird poulations which must be culled, but around here they are breeding birds simply so that people can have the fun of shooting them.

Personally I don't like the thought of shooting for just "kicks" but I do very much agree with shooting for the pot, I'm not a vegetarian and I am quite interested in self sufficiency food wise - for example eventually OH and I would ideally have land enough to have a decent sized veg patch and would keep chickens/pigs with the view to eventually eating them.

Unfortunately sometimes it's not the ideal clean instant kill which would obviously be the most desirable outcome but with everything being humanly done to make any suffering as short as possible. Personally I think the ducks were too stunned to suffer much in the short interim before being properly dispatched i.e there was no distressed noises or struggling when they were retrieved.

The one dog who retrieved a duck was very gentle with it and did not worry it and again I really honestly think the duck was too stunned to notice.

All in all no I don't think it was cruel, nor do I find the process of killing other animals for the table cruel (barring halal which sounds pretty horrific).

I do understand that some people shoot for fun which as I previously said is not for me, I enjoyed the shoot and would participate again for the fact that a) it was a very interesting and educational experience for me especially being done the way it was. I'm proud of myself that I learned two new skills even if it's unlikely I'll use them often. And b) that it was for getting some food out of it, something I don't eat except once in a blue moon at a restaurant which I find to be very tasty and would eat more of given the opportunity.

The local shoot organiser(? don't know the technical term) breeds ducks to be shot just as people breed cows/pigs etc etc to be dispatched and eaten. No duck was wasted as everyone who took part took ducks home to eat. It was a small shoot (not sure what the average is being my first) where there were about 10 shooters + ground team.

I also fish to eat and I understand that it can't be pleasant for the fish to be hooked, reeled in, taken out of it's environment and then bopped on the head (not that it probably feels the bop when it comes to that, it's instantly gone if you do it properly) and don't feel guilty or cruel for that either. I enjoy the feeling that I can provide for and feed myself, it speaks to my primal hunter gatherer instinct I guess

Maesfen, glad to hear that my experience was the norm, all the locals were a very nice, friendly lot and I felt that it was a positive experience

 

[cptrayes]

I'd rather have the life of a pheasant 'shot half dead out of the sky' than that of a mass produced chicken destined for the supermarket shelf. I know which I think is more inhumane!

When did two wrongs make a right?

 

[sandi_84]

I'd rather have the life of a pheasant 'shot half dead out of the sky' than that of a mass produced chicken destined for the supermarket shelf. I know which I think is more inhumane!

Also this ^ at least I know the ducks were properly properly free range and well cared for as fact rather than "free range" chickens that have a foot square space or poor battery chickens both of whom must live a thoroughly miserable existence. I also buy local eggs where I can.

 

[minesadouble]

When did two wrongs make a right?

Two wrongs never make a right. However I sincerely hope that those who are so vehemently opposed to hunting/shooting/fishing take as much care as I do when sourcing meat/animal products and don't just pick the cheap meat from the supermarket shelves without a thought for the life that animal has led and the death it has met.

 

[Alec Swan]

Uhm, slightly nervous of entering into this debate but I do think it's worth at least being open to the possibility that some people have joined hunting post-ban because they weren't in support of hunting foxes, and do support post-ban hunting. Equally I suspect you have a point, that others have joined to show their support and are against the ban.

Don't be nervous, your opinion is as valid as that of anyone else!! Whilst short of a Mori survey (and it would be interesting), I'm wondering how we decide just why people hunt. Was it Jorrocks who said "Some people Hunt to get away from their wives, and some to meet other people's. Some Hunt to follow 'ounds"?! It was something like that.

I suspect that Hunting is a social pastime and as such that's why others gather to ride to Hounds. It was interesting that following on from the Ban, that the Boxing Day Meets, the Country over, were never better attended. I also suspect that the rural community, even those who didn't previously Hunt were a little peeved at being told that they 'couldn't'! Further, there may well be a continuing rebellion at the urban dictates which are being handed down, by those who neither know nor care about those of us who live in the long grass!!

Alec.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Two wrongs never make a right. However I sincerely hope that those who are so vehemently opposed to hunting/shooting/fishing take as much care as I do when sourcing meat/animal products and don't just pick the cheap meat from the supermarket shelves without a thought for the life that animal has led and the death it has met.

Surely that decision is best left to each person's own ethical code ? Personally, chasing and killing a wild animal just for fun isn't something I'd find acceptable. Catching a fish, or shooting a pheasant to be eaten at dinner, is.

I do not buy cheap meat from unknown origin at supermarkets, but if I only had the choice of buying cheap food or my children going hungry, I would. Being ethical is about getting priorities right.
Would you be eating the foxes killed by the hunt ?

 

[cptrayes]

the urban dictates which are being handed down, by those who neither know nor care about those of us who live in the long grass!!

Alec.

I do wish you'd stop pretending that every long term country dweller and/or worker in the country supports your view of fox hunting and bird shooting.

Oh and I do wish that you would drop the refrain of 'we are misunderstood' and accept that the truth is that you are simply disagreed with.

 

[minesadouble]

I

Surely that decision is best left to each person's own ethical code ? Personally, chasing and killing a wild animal just for fun isn't something I'd find acceptable. Catching a fish, or shooting a pheasant to be eaten at dinner, is.

I do not buy cheap meat from unknown origin at supermarkets, but if I only had the choice of buying cheap food or my children going hungry, I would. Being ethical is about getting priorities right.
Would you be eating the foxes killed by the hunt ?

Nope, I sure wouldn't, but there is an argument that we eat meat for pleasure rather than out of necessity too.
I am pro hunting shooting and fishing but I would not eat meat from an animal that led a miserable life - not to my knowledge anyway. If I couldn't afford to buy meat of provenance I was confident of I would simply eat meat less often and so would my children. Those are my ethics and I am comfortable with my beliefs.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

……... I would not eat meat from an animal that led a miserable life - not to my knowledge anyway. If I couldn't afford to buy meat of provenance I was confident of I would simply eat meat less often and so would my children. Those are my ethics and I am comfortable with my beliefs.

That raises an interesting and ethical point.

What is a 'Miserable life"? Every animal which is predated upon, consider for the point of the argument, The Hare, lives a life of permanent fear. The Fox, and he's also a hunted animal, also lives a life of fear. Neither the Fox nor the Hare ever have any security of tenure upon life. No animal has. The Mouse, Burn's Wee Timorous Beastie, is the staple diet of Owls and as such lives a precarious existence. Would we consider any animal which lives a life of permanent fear, to be miserable?

As you and others, I suppose that we maintain, and possibly change, our own levels of acceptable behaviour. I also suppose that we have to be at ease with ourselves. Ethical behaviour is an interesting and sometimes perplexing subject.

Alec.

 

[Orangehorse]

Some people are going to disagree with field sports no matter what, so it is a waste of time arguing.

Many people disagree with fox hunting, thinking that every time a fox is hunted it is killed. Actually, we know that it is MUCH harder than that. I have come across people who used to be anti - toffs on horses, going hunting to see animals killed - have got involved and discovered that it isn't like that at all.

Then there are the shooting thousands of birds and injuring them. Well shooting thousands of birds happened in the Edwardian era. Modern game shooting is very mindful of its public image. Any injured birds are retrived as quickly as possible - that is why people have Retriever dogs, and it is important that the birds are carried softly and not damaged by the dog. If it is alive it is killed immediately, but most game birds fall dead from the sky. This is my experience anyway, but then maybe the little shooting I am involved with is done by skilled shooters.