Thoughts on mystery lameness

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Ranyhyn

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Ok will try to give as much info as possible.

Firstly horse is under my vet and my farrier for this issue. I am just looking for thoughts from outside the box really!

Mon 21st Nov 5.30pm
I arrive late at the yard to find mare on 3 legs. Get her into the stable. Am told she was seen hooning 30mins before.
Turnout paddock - wet/muddy with compacted stone entrance.

8pm
Vet comes, suspects abscess as raging digital pulse. Poultice 3 days wet, if nothing - they will come back.

Poultice yields not very much, some greyish smelly gunk, which I'm told isnt pus.

Sat 26th Nov 11.00am
Different vet comes back, hoof tests - not much. Finds some bruising on medial(?) inside hoof wall close to nail hole. Poultice again, bute given if no better in 5 days get them back to nerve block/xray for fractured pedal bone.

Weds 30th Nov 10.30am
New farrier. Takes last shoes left on, off. Hoof tests VERY little response. Declares not much wrong with foot, no bruising (in his opinion) certainly no broken pedal bone. Has her trotted up, is happy enough that its more to do with badly done feet.
Asks me to take her OFF bute for a few days and have him back this Weds.

So here we are, the horse walked out in hand nicely, Thurs/Fri/Sat (could bute still be in system???)

Yesterday and today she seems very withdrawn, sullen, disinterested and totally NOT coming out of her stable - even for food and this is a mare who would walk through the fires of hell for food!

So I am really confused now where to turn. Farrier is due back in two days.

Does anyone have any thoughts/advice?

Thanks so much if you can help :confused:
 
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Not sound, hard to tell why now really because she's had her shoes taken off. She trotted up satisfactory enough for the farrier last week though, he was happy with that.

No more heat in that foot than any other, no higher pulse.

No heat/lumps and bumps in any of her legs - that's one thing all 3 agreed on, its her foot or perhaps higher up?? But definitely not in between..apparently...
 
I think I replied on one of your previous posts, but my mare showed abscess type symptoms with on/off lameness - turned out it was her fetlock that was the problem, not her foot as first thought.
 
There could still be an abscess that is not near the surface and will take time to come out, is she getting any exercise or only the in hand walking, mares are very prone to tying up, so something else to consider.
 
I have only been walking her out atm, she did seem to enjoy that for the first few days now she's completely not interested, keeps stopping at looking back at her stable to go back.

I was looking to bring her back home for restricted turnout however she is now so reluctant I'm wondering whether we'll be able to?

Hi Erin, thanks - but wouldn't there be heat in an injured fetlock?
 
muff747 said:
Yes I thought fetlock or suspensory ligaments. Have she had flexion tests?
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Nope, neither vet nor farrier seemed even interested in her legs. They were both focussing on her feet.

Farrier did suggest sometimes the abnormal loading of the feet can affect the shoulder, but vet did examine shoulder when he came and felt it wasn't there.
 
I meant to add that I would want to get the vet out to nerve block now as you really need to start to find the reason for this, as yet, unidentified lameness.
 
Christmassy_Clover said:
Hi Erin, thanks - but wouldn't there be heat in an injured fetlock?
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You'd think, but everything with my mare pointed to abscess/foot. She had a pulse, swelling round the back of her foot/heel and a bit of swelling up the back of the fetlock (which you can apparently have with an abscess)
She went to the vets for a lameness work up in the end, and when they couldn't find anything in the foot they tried higher up (nerve block from fetlock down was positive)
She had an apical fracture of the proximal sesamoid bone and avulsion of the medial branch of the suspensory ligament.
 
Would you be inclined to stick with my current vets or try someone else for a second opinion?

Last week I was told the same practice said the same thing to a friend (no abscess, possible fracture) that week the livery yard owner managed to pop the abscess...
 
Just to help, here's some pictures before she was done by the farrier
DSCF3625.jpg


DSCF3628.jpg


Can anyone see anything standing out that seems bad?

Any after farrier visit
DSCF3640.jpg

DSCF3639.jpg


As you can see he's brought the toe back quite considerably, so we were expecting her to be still a bit footy because he's altered everything even down to the way she's walking.
 
She couldnt have laminitas could she?? with the long toes no heel it could have caused some separation of the sensitive laminae and could explain her reluctance to move now, I would get her back on bute just in case, get a vet that you feel confident in and start the process of investigation.

The problems that can be caused by poor farriery are numerous and range from corns, which are painful but not too serious, to tendon damage which is obviously serious and many things in between, without a thorough examination it is only calculated guesswork really.

Nothing stands out in the photos, other than the awful state of her feet. The way she is stood with her back legs under her could also suggest laminitas.
 
My horse had lamintis and he had been shod leaving his toes too long. He didn't overly react to hoof testers but had a digital pulse and was reluctant to move, he did have it really bad in his hinds and kept shifting weight.
 
The farrier said when he trimmed her "she's acting like she's laminitic...but she's not"

That photo is a bit deceptive because the alleyway slopes from behind her (for water to run down to the drain) she doesn't actually normally stand like that!

I can certainyl ask him to work with vet and mention laminitis!
 
Christmassy_Clover said:
Would you be inclined to stick with my current vets or try someone else for a second opinion?

Last week I was told the same practice said the same thing to a friend (no abscess, possible fracture) that week the livery yard owner managed to pop the abscess...
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If you are worried - then get a second opinion. It'll only hurt you pocket (but you've saved money on shoes this time anyway;))

P.S. From what I can see - the hooves look much better.
But you are teasing me with only two pics
stuckup.gif
 
Christmassy_Clover said:
The farrier said when he trimmed her "she's acting like she's laminitic...but she's not"

That photo is a bit deceptive because the alleyway slopes from behind her (for water to run down to the drain) she doesn't actually normally stand like that!

I can certainyl ask him to work with vet and mention laminitis!
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If it is (and only a vet can diagnose that) I have this advice;

She'll have thin soles - normal for a shod horse. That will be sore right now on uneven ground, but they will thicken now with ground stimulation.

She had all of her body weight on her walls in the shoes and long toes which = shearing forces on the laminae. But the shorter toe and the development of her heels and heel first landing will eradicate this while the new hoof can grow in a better connection.

For now - provide good nutrition (high minerals and forage) and stay away from sugar and starch - to encourage the bacteria in her gut.

Keep on soft ground - this will pack in the soles and support the internal structures (like natural pads). No stones - too high risk of bruising.

Get some boots (and possibly pads) so she can walk comfortably and safely and encourage that heel first landing so she's not tearing at that wall connection any more.

It's no secret that bare hooves are better nourished by circulation than shoes - every step she takes shoots blood to her hooves and back again. This will help her more than anything.
(There is a theory that the shifting of weight from one hoof to another that laminitics do, is a way to keep the blood flowing as well as easing discomfort).
 
Lameness aside, her feet are pretty badly shod tbh, and I would be looking for a new farrier pronto. I would also guess there is an abscess there somewhere, but very dificult without seeing horse in "person". PLEASE get her feet sorted though, she is too nice a mare to damage because of bad farriery, I am presuming the farrier who has just trimmed her is a different one to who was shoeing her previously?
 
Hi Kat,
Yes a new farrier was found immediately, in that first photo it is hard to believe that is week 6!! New farrier has been working with my YO for the last 15years or so so he came highly recommended. And is one of the rare gems that will actually work with a vet!
Clover now has shoes back on and is on field rest at home (soft ground in ref to Oberon) She is still not quite right so will be going for pictures with a different vet for a second opinion.
As for the shoes on/off debate - once we've sorted out what the underlying issue is, I'm open to whichever solution will give her long term soundness :) I've had unshod/part shod and shod horses previously so I'm open to anything.

Here's some more pics of her with shoes on, for you Oberon :)
DSCF3654.jpg


DSCF3656.jpg
 
I had the same senario with my 17.1hh TB a week after I had bought him.
He had been shod with natural balance shoes and as a result he had collapsed heels and red raw bruising on his toes!
My farrier was appalled at the terrible state of his feet. He had shoes off for two weeks, my farrier trimmed his toes right back and eventually put shoes back on with full support at his heels and rolled toes. He remained lame for about 5 weeks...so vet ran flexion tests, trotted him up on hard/soft ground etc etc and suggested that he may have had underlying issues such as Navicular syndrome or coffin joint arthritis. The next step would have been nerve blocks.
However, I turned him out in the field for 5 weeks and he came sound all by himself and hasn't looked back. My farrier and I both think that he just took a long time to get over the bruising in his feet from terrible shoeing.
His feet are looking really good now.
If all else fails and unless he is hopping lame, I would suggest just turning him away and see if whatever it is resolves itself.
Good luck with it. xx
 
Always Henesy said:
I had the same senario with my 17.1hh TB a week after I had bought him.
He had been shod with natural balance shoes and as a result he had collapsed heels and red raw bruising on his toes!
My farrier was appalled at the terrible state of his feet. He had shoes off for two weeks, my farrier trimmed his toes right back and eventually put shoes back on with full support at his heels and rolled toes. He remained lame for about 5 weeks...so vet ran flexion tests, trotted him up on hard/soft ground etc etc and suggested that he may have had underlying issues such as Navicular syndrome or coffin joint arthritis. The next step would have been nerve blocks.
However, I turned him out in the field for 5 weeks and he came sound all by himself and hasn't looked back. My farrier and I both think that he just took a long time to get over the bruising in his feet from terrible shoeing.
His feet are looking really good now.
If all else fails and unless he is hopping lame, I would suggest just turning him away and see if whatever it is resolves itself.
Good luck with it. xx
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turning HER away - my apologies! xx
 
Thanks for that, we do have ample facilities for turning her away at home. However wanted to rule out worse before we let her have some time off. But I have to tell you, that's my gut instinct too. She's turned out at home at the moment and is sound on our soft ground and still insists on running around with her pals.

Most people think she is a gelding too :) so don't worry, thanks for the reply :)
 
Hooves are better than previously....but they're still not good. Toes still much too long - so still alot of leverage on the laminae.

Feet still begging for a break from shoes IMO.
 
be positive said:
She couldnt have laminitas could she?? with the long toes no heel it could have caused some separation of the sensitive laminae and could explain her reluctance to move now, get a vet that you feel confident in and start the process of investigation.

The way she is stood with her back legs under her could also suggest laminitas.
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I've edited the quote here so it is not exactly as written by be positive. I agree with this.

Constant rippling to the hoof walls also suggest dietary issues and laminitis. The trouble with turning away is if she is sensitive to grass it will only help her comfort but not address any possible underlying issues. For me the diet is where to start and may mean soaked hay for a while to get her comfortable. Abscessing is also a problem with thin soles which is also often dietary related. I think getting her shoes off and a period of strict diet management may be a big help to her. She may need pads and comfortable surfaces.
Just my thoughts seeing the pics. I am not a professional. Also imo this will need time so factor in a period of rehab. Her hooves cannot be trimmed or shod to heal them only to help them.
 
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Oberon said:
If it is (and only a vet can diagnose that) I have this advice;

She'll have thin soles - normal for a shod horse. That will be sore right now on uneven ground, but they will thicken now with ground stimulation.

She had all of her body weight on her walls in the shoes and long toes which = shearing forces on the laminae. But the shorter toe and the development of her heels and heel first landing will eradicate this while the new hoof can grow in a better connection.

For now - provide good nutrition (high minerals and forage) and stay away from sugar and starch - to encourage the bacteria in her gut.

Keep on soft ground - this will pack in the soles and support the internal structures (like natural pads). No stones - too high risk of bruising.

Get some boots (and possibly pads) so she can walk comfortably and safely and encourage that heel first landing so she's not tearing at that wall connection any more.

It's no secret that bare hooves are better nourished by circulation than shoes - every step she takes shoots blood to her hooves and back again. This will help her more than anything.
(There is a theory that the shifting of weight from one hoof to another that laminitics do, is a way to keep the blood flowing as well as easing discomfort).
Click to expand...
I tend to agree with this.

There are quite some event lines in the hoof.

I'd look at reducing sugars and starches.

Mag ox.

Try to keep off bute if you can, it impares the rejuvination of the laminae.

Get the shoes off and keep the toes short.

Get some boots for the fronts and some gentle exercise if you cannot turn away.
 
Well no admittedly my farrier told me he was not taking it all off in one fell swoop, so they are not perfect by any means via one shoeing.
I think a change of yard may be in order when she goes back to livery also, as happy as I am with the yard the change in the horses mental outlook since she's been home has been phenomenal.
I have been thinking about soaking her hay down and bringing the weight off her, she has coped outstandingly well being out (better than perhaps I'd thought) so she could do with losing some now.
As for taking the shoes off, I HAVE to let myself be lead by the professionals that have seen her, as much as I value and appreciate your suggestions I can't be paying hundreds out to people and then just go against what they suggest? Otherwise there is very little point in asking OR indeed paying them anything? :confused:
 
Each of us pays a vet for their opinion, and then it is up to each of us to decide whether that opinion is the best advice available, or whether to continue listening to other opinions. So, there really is no onus on you to follow a vet's opinion if you feel you have been guided towards a different option which may have a more positive outcome.

For what it's worth, I'm another one who would be keeping the shoes off to allow a decent hoof to grow down. I don't know if you are aware just how out of shape the feet were in your earlier photos. The front of the foot, at ground level, was at least an inch further forward than it should be. (An easy way to tell is just to extend to the ground the line formed by the hoof wall at the coronary band. The hoof shouldn't pull forward of that line. If it does, you know for sure you have a compromised hoof structure, which will be more susceptible to things like laminitis and gravel, not to mention the extra stresses it will be placing on tendons and ligaments).

Even if a very good foot, it will take at least 5 months for a new hoof to grow down to the ground. More likely with a compromised hoof will be 10 or 11 months or so.

So personally I'd opt to keep the shoes off for at least 5 months and keep a very close eye on how well the new hoof is growing in.

I'd also ask your farrier to show you how to keep the toe trimmed back in between his visits, so that you can avoid the foot just getting pulled further forward between trims.

Horses give away a lot by the way they stand. Even at her worst with laminitis, one of my mares didn't stand any worse than your horse is doing. Those hind feet being so far underneath is absolutely typical of a horse who is trying to take away the pain felt at their toes. Most often seen with laminitis.

I'm another one who would be very wary of turning out on grass because of the possible laminitis.

In the more recent photos, the hoof angle does look improved, but progress will be limited by having shoes on.

Sarah
 
Haven't read other responses to the post, but looked at the pics, and IMO, your farrier has done a good job!!

Sounds a little similar to what my loan horse was like, bar the not wanting food part.

Farrier came to shoe horse, changed she front shoes from one front toe clip, to two clips to try to stop her feet from splaying out to the side any more. She then went quite badly lame a few days later. Thought it was an abscess. Farrier tested after, and she definitely flinched on her off fore. Pricked the area and poulticed, nothing came out on but it did smell a little. Kept the shoe on as she doesn't do great going barefoot. Still lame after a week or so, so went to the vets.
Took her to vets, the vet said she was lame on the opposite leg that we thought it was and to the one she reacted on!! X-rayed etc as she seemed a little lame on both front feet, nothing showing up. Was told it was just bruised pedal bones? She was on box rest at the vets for 3.5 days (had to have tooth out then too, not expected) she was on danolin for 10 days. She had danolin twice a day to start with, and then I think it was the final 6 days where she just had it in her evening feed.
Walked her in hand for 20 mins a day for 5 days, and then riding just in walk for 5 days before introducing trot work. Once we were sure she was definitely sound, work resumed as normal including canter and road work.
 
Sarah, I don't know if you missed the part where I said that first photo of her stance is on a slope (hence the water run-off line running down to the drain) she had no choice but to stand like that because her back feet are on a slope and her front feet are on the flat. In the second stood-up photo she is completely on the slope, hence the different posture.

Anyway besides that point, thank you for your input. I am reticent to go against what farrier and vet have said, however I have to admit what you are saying is what I WANT to do but if I do that and I am wrong, it's a pretty bad scenario really. Possibly putting the horse through pain just to go on a gut instinct? Unless you are suggesting NB/Xray and THEN decide whether to go against my vet and farrier?

I am now considering managing her as laminitic anyway, so she'll be sectioned off in her field (it is actually only 2 1/2 acres between 3 and it's our worse quality field now since our ewes have been on it..) soaking her hay and looking at the no starch/sugars diet anyway as it seems sensible, this is our first winter together and she's constantly surprising me with her weight.

The long and short of it is, she can have whatever she needs. Be it expensive treatment, inexpensive treatment, shoes on or off, turning away or work - I can cater for some, all or none of the above. It's just knowing the right path which is something you expect your experts to guide you in. Currently I feel very left to my own devices to make my own mind up!! :confused:
 
Christmassy_Clover said:
I am now considering managing her as laminitic anyway, so she'll be sectioned off in her field (it is actually only 2 1/2 acres between 3 and it's our worse quality field now since our ewes have been on it..) soaking her hay and looking at the no starch/sugars diet anyway as it seems sensible, this is our first winter together and she's constantly surprising me with her weight.
:confused:
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I think this is definitely worth a try, shoes on or off and it certainly wont do any harm. :) Imo your farrier is doing the right thing altering her toe length etc.over time rather than in one hit.
 
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