Thoughts on smacking rearers?

Ha, Fairynuff, another vote for Endospink. Brilliant, isn't he. Now, that's a horseman. There aren't many around like that imho.
I can't agree enough with amandap. Wise words there.
Horses rear in protest at something. Physical usually, if it's major rearing. Small threatening rears (like the OP's horse out on a hack, if i've read it right) because it is being thwarted when it wants to go forward. I have 1 who rears out in the field, loose, when she's jealous of another horse getting attention.
There is also "caracoling" (cantering on the spot) which is not rearing but feels very bouncy in front, and the more you put your legs on, the higher they bounce with every stride. I don't mind this actually (i read somewhere that it's a long-forgotten high school dr movement), it makes me laugh, feels great. i've only ever had mares do it (1 in particular, and her daughter). Bashing a horse over the head for doing this sort of thing? give me a break.
If a horse is truly rearing it is the rider's job to find the cause and eradicate it (even if that means - "okay, he wants to go forward but that doesn't suit me at the moment so we'll keep doing big circles so his feet are moving, to chill his brain out", say), not to bash it over the head in an attempt to 'cure' it. :( :( :(
Those of you with raw eggs in your pockets, all ready to shimmy up its neck as it goes vertical... don't expect me to visit you in hospital while you lie there with your crushed pelvises trying to mend... ;) ;)
Seriously though, cracking a raw egg over the top of its head sounds to me like the quickest way of getting a horse to flip over. :( :( That can kill horses. And riders.
 
TequilaMist - it's not the coloured in your siggy that you are talking about is it?

If so, I had a very very similar looking mare that used to do exactly as you describe, except when she was really excited she would rear and take off!
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The only thing that prevented this from my mare was riding forwards and unfortunately I never really got her to stand still!
 
emmachiro said:
Thank goodness for Amandap....phew some sense...

Have you had this horse assessed to see if it's in any pain in it's neck/back??? If you were in pain and were asked to do half the things we ask our horses to do, I think you'd object too!!!
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Horse has had this issue since we got her 4yrs now passed vetting (5 stage with bloods) with flying colours and has had teeth back done etc recently.Think it is not pain related.Really believe this is more a learned behaviour-old owner apparently used to get off and put in stable when she did bunny rears routine.Rears got bigger when daughter got her and bunny rears didn't get her off work evenyually tailed off when realised not working only does it when stressed/ not wanting to do something.They did escalate initially to very big rears not quite vertical but enough to get daughter who has great stckability off.
It is sometimes out of temper/frustration at not getting her own way -foreward.This is not always possible -roads etc so she has to stand which she does for a minute then its nudge nudge lets go! Then if you don't go it goes to stamping feet then bunny rears which leads to rears.
She's a sweetheart really.
 
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Sorry not had a chance to read through all of the replies but My horse spent the best part of 18months rearing, until I got some lessons with someone who was brill. He doesn't rear now (except for the odd occasion when it's usually my fault), but when he used to do it out hacking he would get a big smack on the arse - sometimes 3 big smacks on the arse. His fave trick was then to buck which earned him another smack until he went forward.

I don't think it works for all horses - mine is fairly thuggish with his rearing and although in some ways sensitive he's not neurotic. I hardly ever smack him anymore, he's so well behaved. For some horses turning in circles is enough but with him he just reared higher and higher and then ran backwards/sideways, threw himself in a ditch etc - anything to get his own way. It took me getting enough confidence to not care what he threw at me to be able to give as good as I got and get him to decide it wasn't worth the battle!

ETS: DO make sure if you do go down the smacking route that you aren't preventing the horse from going forwards in the first place - be really careful about not pulling in the mouth

Good luck with your horse :)
 
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alicjabw1 no its not coloured in pics -he's only.Its the other one jumping in pic(my daughter in pic).
Thank god she doesn't do that!! I'd def be on the floor!!Well sat

Endospink is amazing to watch and talks a lot of sense.Plus do love the way he gets on the horse.Oh I wish!!
 
'Horses rear in protest at something. Physical usually, if it's major rearing. Small threatening rears (like the OP's horse out on a hack, if i've read it right) because it is being thwarted when it wants to go forward. I have 1 who rears out in the field, loose, when she's jealous of another horse getting attention.
There is also "caracoling" (cantering on the spot) which is not rearing but feels very bouncy in front, and the more you put your legs on, the higher they bounce with every stride. I don't mind this actually (i read somewhere that it's a long-forgotten high school dr movement), it makes me laugh, feels great. i've only ever had mares do it (1 in particular, and her daughter). Bashing a horse over the head for doing this sort of thing? give me a break.'


Spot on Kerelli tho she does sometimes escalate to bigger things(depends on mood lol) but on the whole this is what she does now.And has actually got better over time so as said don't see the point of hitting her now after circling worked
 
Our horse is an occassional rearer. I would never say she wouldn't do it anymore, but I think we finally got to the root of her issue for the moment anyway.

We thought at first it was an evasion/management issue so we changed a lot of things like feed, work load, got lessons, moved her to a yard where it was easier to establish a routine. She stopped rearing for nearly a year, but then started again.

We got the vet, we tried Regumate but it didn't help. So, we got a very experienced friend to try her and she advised chiro and sort her feet out (under-run heels) we did both these things and so far, no rearing and for the first time ever she has willingly took up a contact and worked properly. Our friend also showed my daughter how to keep her moving so she couldn't rear.

Our friend described it as "She has an I WON'T attitude that possibly comes from an "I can't because it hurts" attitude. If you've exhausted all other avenues, it might be worth exploring
 
Horses are 'into pressure' animals meaning if you hit them over the head they will move into the pressure. As you know from trying to push them off your foot and they lean back into you it proves they move into pressure!
If you really feel the need to smack them then the stomach is the place to smack them as they will come down.
However, the first course of action is to not get yourself into the situation in the first place. If the horse does and rear moving its hind quaters and shoulders often prevents the horse from going up or turn the horse on a circle with the inside hand low and wide.
 
I dont agree with the "into pressure" thing. If you watch horses in the field, if my little one is in the way of our mare, our mare just walks into her and she moves out the way. She certainly doesnt push back against her! Likewise, when you ride you want horses to move forward from your leg - i.e. move AWAY.

And when I walked up to Puz in the field earlier and patted her on the bum before she'd realised I was there (dont ask, dense pony), she leapt forward, she didnt push back towards my hand.
 
My mare has never reared, thank goodness, however she does the canter on the spot thingy if she is very frightened. I usually find this quite amusing for some reason and just sit calmly and talk to her till she calms down.

I think your problem is quite a hard one to solve as it is sometimes very hard to be able to manouver when out riding so turning could be tricky. Would it be any use to have someone on foot out with you who could distract horse whilst waiting to see if it helps?

I hope you find a solution soon as I am sure this must be an awful thing to have happen.

Good luck x
 
AndySpooner said:
Situations do arise, normally the fault of the rider, if you cannot train your horse not to rear without hitting it get professional help from someone who can.
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There are many ways, as the saying goes, to skin a cat. I think there is a BIG difference between smacking the horse between the ears as its on its way up to whacking it about the head at some point when it rears. Yes i agree that people should be able to train the horses that they are riding but not everyone who owns horses is capable (how many riders do you see that are over horsed). I have seen far too many "professionals" take approaches to horses "bad" behaviour that quite frankly is abuse, without ever looking at the reason why. I believe that it is more of the shock factor of the "knock" between the ears and not the fact that the horse hurts which stops the behaviour. I also think that different horses will react to the same situations in varying degrees of behaviour so what works for the gander may not work for the goose and again that is down to the rider to work out which is the best way forward. I have known horses put into a "spin" to stop nappy behaviour that has resulted in the horses learning to spin as an evasion to going forward. All evasive behaviour in horses can become "learned" behaviour when left unchecked and this is when you use any trick in the book to stop it. Especially when you are certain that all the discomfort issues have been investigated.
 
Allover said:
All evasive behaviour in horses can become "learned" behaviour when left unchecked and this is when you use any trick in the book to stop it. Especially when you are certain that all the discomfort issues have been investigated.
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Sorry, but this is just not possible. A horse might have an undetected problem. I've heard of plenty of cases where a post-mortem has been carried out and something totally unexpected has been found.
William Micklem tells a story on Barnmice about being ordered to ride a reluctant horse, he ended up being very harsh with the horse just to get it to hack around the block, iirc. The horse was never ridden again, iirc it lasted about another week and then was pts and a huge tumour was found in its gut. That horse wasn't saying "Shan't go down the road", it was attempting to say "Can't go down the road (don't feel well enough)" but unfortunately nobody was listening. :( :(
I'm not saying that that sort of thing is behind all bad behaviour, possibly it's only behind 1% of it, BUT imho you can't ever 100% confidently say "this horse is FINE, it's just taking the mickey and therefore anything I do to get it to do what I want, is justified."
 
LizzyandToddy said:
This is alot of hastle. But I got asked to sort out a rearing horse at our yard.
Yes smacking propells them forwards and down. But...

Get an egg. When they go up smash it as hard as you can between their ears (more effective than a sick). They get the sensation that they have cracked their head open. Its worked for every horse i've tried it with...
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I really doubt this egg thing works that way. More likely, they don't like the sensation of being smacked on the head with an egg than thinking they've damaged themselves.

I saw a horse smacked on the poll for rearing- it didn't work. Mare just chucked herself on the deck and broke the rider's leg.

I think you'd be better off teaching her to stand quietly. :) How does she stand when tied up?
 
kerilli said:
I'm not saying that that sort of thing is behind all bad behaviour, possibly it's only behind 1% of it, BUT imho you can't ever 100% confidently say "this horse is FINE, it's just taking the mickey and therefore anything I do to get it to do what I want, is justified."
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I agree 100% with this. For this reason inflicting pain, misery and being downright brutish to a horse is not an option imo. Apart from the 'we can never be 100% sure' thing taking this stance allows us an easy way out/simple solution... just force/make 'it' makes me cross I'm afraid. So many horses are worked in pain and described as lazy, stubborn etc.:(

meandmyself said:
I think you'd be better off teaching her to stand quietly.
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Yes, a fantastic idea.
 
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Kerilli, i agree that more often than not horses that misbehave are reacting to pain BUT i also know that sometimes a behaviour becomes learned by horses.

I am sure you have seen how a horse will behave in hand with one person completely differently than it behaves with its owner, because it has learnt that it can get away with it with the owner. Or horses that "try it on" with a new handler or rider to see what behaviour they can get away with. Or horses that are bad in traffic with one rider will not necessarily do it with another rider. They are generally intelligent animals all with different characters and some will push the boundries of behaviour more than others.
 
To the people that think rearing is always to do with pain etc - what else can you do apart from do all the normal checks? Just retire a horse that occasionally rears if there is no obvious sign of pain? Have it put down and do a post mortem to see if there was a reason for the rearing? This is just not realistic or productive in my opinion.

I am not pro smacking a rearer as the first cause of action, of course not - however, like Allover says, there are many ways to skin a cat and you just have to use common sense in order to try and find out the reason for it.

I ride a horse that started rearing after being ridden by a rider with extremely fixed hands - and when she reared, the rider got off and put her in the stable. Of course I can't swear that the horse isn't in pain, but as it is seen by a very good physio, has a great farrier etc etc and very rarely rears, my conclusion is that in this instance it is a learned behaviour which sometimes comes out when she gets stressed or uses it as an evasion tactic. I know how to defuse the situation so it doesn't escalate. In the instance of this mare, she gets a little smack with the schooling whip to send her forward, which immediately puts a stop to her nappy behaviour. I don't think you can generalise so much as to say that this horse should never be ridden...
 
Allover said:
Kerilli, i agree that more often than not horses that misbehave are reacting to pain BUT i also know that sometimes a behaviour becomes learned by horses.

I am sure you have seen how a horse will behave in hand with one person completely differently than it behaves with its owner, because it has learnt that it can get away with it with the owner. Or horses that "try it on" with a new handler or rider to see what behaviour they can get away with. Or horses that are bad in traffic with one rider will not necessarily do it with another rider. They are generally intelligent animals all with different characters and some will push the boundries of behaviour more than others.
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Absolutely. The mare in question I mention above very rarely misbehaves with me, but has found it very difficult to get on with better riders than me in the past, for example. Sometimes there are also just personality clashes - not all horses and riders will suit each other. And sometimes horses just take the p and need to be told when something is unacceptable. And equally, sometimes horses tell the rider - which is exactly what the mare I mention, did... luckily her owner was sensible enough to not let this particular rider (who is a high level dressage rider, I might add...) on the mare any more.
 
I would avoid the egg thing really, the only place I have ever heard of it being successful was in a fictional book called The Black Stallion's Filly. You'd have to have impeccible timing to do that and ride through a serious rear.

For our horse, once we had addressed her pelvic issues it was really a case of keeping her going forward, or in a circle, or even just standing quietly, or lunging if my daughter felt unsafe to stay on but didn't want the horse to get out of work. Our horse had to learn that schooling didn't hurt anymore.

Like I said, I will never say she doesn't rear because I reckon if she felt trapped in front, or in discomfort that slipped under the radar, or just confused about signals, or frustrated at the pace she might do so again.

Look at these photos from the 1st lesson they had after she started her chiro, these rears are nothing to what she'd been doing but it shows kind of the lightbulb moment for her, where she realises she can "do it"

tantrum.jpg

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I know of a horse, and have seen it in action, and wonder (sorry to hijack OP!) what you would do for him?

He rears (or rather has rearing fits/episodes) possibly twice or three times a month, usually on consecutive rides, but not always. Has had all of the usual checks, and has come back clear, he is a 10 year old medium level dressage horse, who is well schooled but not IMO to the point of monotony! Also, this happens indoors and outdoors, schooling and hacking, so it shouldn't be boredom.

Anyway, rearing, full up dangerous rears (often 20+ in a row, or until he manages to snatch the reins) happen when he decides to nap, meaning that spinning him in circles isn't affective as he simply tanks off as soon as he faces the way he wants to go. Smacking on the bum occasionally works to get him to jump forward away from the object, and he can be persuaded to go forwards but not always.

Any ideas?
 
amandap said:
I agree 100% with this. For this reason inflicting pain, misery and being downright brutish to a horse is not an option imo. Apart from the 'we can never be 100% sure' thing taking this stance allows us an easy way out/simple solution... just force/make 'it' makes me cross I'm afraid. So many horses are worked in pain and described as lazy, stubborn etc.:(
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I agree too – but if you have done all readily available checks and the horse still occasionally rears in an unexplained way (by that I mean in a way that doesn't occur regularly, is related to any particular physical strain or fear) - what would you do to resolve it?
 
sydneysmum said:
Ive heard before where as they start to rear you smack them on top of the head between their ears and they think theyve banged there heads and its supposed to put them off. Not sure whether it works and it does sound rather harsh but having said that rearing is a dreadful habit to have. I defo agree with turning in tight circles though. Good luck:eek:
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FFS! what a load of codswallop.
 
I do think horses learn behaviours both what we want and some things we don't want. I take issue with using hitting, slapping, hitting over the head and whipping as a 'cure' or even as a punishment in the behavioural sense of the word. These actions by us can cause major problems for the horse especially in the case of hitting somewhere like the head.
Pushing a horse through a behaviour doesn't mean you have to hit as in the Endo video, he just sat, not reacting and let the horse express himself then took control of subsequent movement... to use this sort of approach imo needs a very competant rider and someone who knows exactly what they are doing.
 
little_flea said:
I agree too – but if you have done all readily available checks and the horse still occasionally rears in an unexplained way (by that I mean in a way that doesn't occur regularly, is related to any particular physical strain or fear) - what would you do to resolve it?
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I'd get help personally...

For a few reasons. 1) I'm not a good enough rider to cope with this sort of behaviour. 2) another pair of eyes is often great for seeing something I've missed 3) someone who is detatched and not in the emotional loop that these scarey behaviours put some of us in eg. fear, frustration, feeling inadequate and sad etc. etc.
 
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little_flea said:
I am not talking about a particular case here, just in general. But there is no rulebook for these things, and there are so many ways of dealing with rearers... "getting help" could mean just about anything...
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True. Physical and management stuff done and done again...
I'd go back to basics, making sure my horse is fab at leading, stopping when I stop, turning easily, moving laterally, back up in hand etc. that he will stand and wait with me relaxed and for as long as I ask. Maybe even train ground tying.
In the meantime I'd think carefully about my riding and aids and if there is anything I can pick out that may be a trigger. I'd ask others to see if I was blocking him in any way or my seat is way off balance or something.I might longline doing the same basic stuff to consolidate our communication system.
I may well use treats as reward in parts of this as well as spending time that wasn't 'work' with him.
Riding, I'd stick to safe areas like my field or manege and again practice our communication but especially halt and stand. I'd probably rein back at every halt at this time to set a solid halt.
I gradually progress until out and about again. First ride I'd make short and circular and of course wear body protector and have a companion. Again just build up gradually and slowly.
If he did rear no doubt I'd fall off lol but I'd try and just sit it and not react and then do similar stuff to what was on the DVD ie. being in charge of movement and halt...
If I wasn't managing to get any improvement I'd probably end up with another horsey friend that I just ride in field etc.

Tbh I would get a 'Good' Trainer to come and help us at home, that I believe will work in a way that I feel he deserves, ie. with respect and understanding.
Well, if nothing else I might have bored him into not rearing! lol
 
Meow-Kiss said:
I know of a horse, and have seen it in action, and wonder (sorry to hijack OP!) what you would do for him?

He rears (or rather has rearing fits/episodes) possibly twice or three times a month, usually on consecutive rides, but not always. Has had all of the usual checks, and has come back clear, he is a 10 year old medium level dressage horse, who is well schooled but not IMO to the point of monotony! Also, this happens indoors and outdoors, schooling and hacking, so it shouldn't be boredom.

Anyway, rearing, full up dangerous rears (often 20+ in a row, or until he manages to snatch the reins) happen when he decides to nap, meaning that spinning him in circles isn't affective as he simply tanks off as soon as he faces the way he wants to go. Smacking on the bum occasionally works to get him to jump forward away from the object, and he can be persuaded to go forwards but not always.

Any ideas?
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if you haven't already, please have a look at the video I linked to earlier in the thread. Best way of coping with a serious rearer that I have ever seen.
 
Posts like this frustrate the hell out of me as I can't believe some of the downright stupid advice that people give. ie hit it between it's ears or smash an egg on it's head.

I don't want to get personal but what planet are you people on? Some of you shouldn't even have a horse if that's your answer to a problem.

I have had horses for longer than some of you have been alive and have never had a problem with a horse that I haven't been able to deal with, with common sense or professional help.

Most problems with horses are pain related or human error in some form and napping and it's associated problems stem mostly from a lack of confidence in the horse.
 
Allover said:
Kerilli, i agree that more often than not horses that misbehave are reacting to pain BUT i also know that sometimes a behaviour becomes learned by horses.

I am sure you have seen how a horse will behave in hand with one person completely differently than it behaves with its owner, because it has learnt that it can get away with it with the owner. Or horses that "try it on" with a new handler or rider to see what behaviour they can get away with.
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ABSOLUTELY! I have had a lot of rearers in my day - either I bought them because they were cheap - or had them in for re-schooling. For almost every one, there was a different 'reason' - and a different approach!

One - would you believe - reared because he didn't like anyone being taller than him!! Seriously!! Took me several years to work THAT out! I went through all the usual 'treatments' and 'cures' and they helped to a degree - but I had that horse for more than 10 years and he never completely gave it up. I could hunt him all day and be hacking home on the buckle - and if someone rode up beside me on a taller horse - up he went!! When he was at livery, the YO accidentally discovered his stable 'trick' and kept a stepladder outside his stable so she could show it off to visitors. He'd be quietly munching his haynet, she'd climb the stepladder - and up he went - and stayed up - ears flat back!:rolleyes:

Another - ex-racehorse - reared throughout his racing career - whenever he was asked to leave the saddling paddock or go anywhere on his own. He had to be ponied everywhere. It took me about 3 months to 'cure' him - for me! If anyone else got on him, he would revert and spend 10 minutes or more on his hind legs!

Another persistent rearer - a very DENSE HW gelding with a VERY small brain - was cured with one treatment with the bag of blood between the ears. He came to me as a last resort - owner was going to have him shot if he couldn't be cured - quickly! It's a method I've used on 5 horses - but all were of the same type (thick as *****! :rolleyes:) I WOULDN'T use it on a mare, or a TB, or anything high-strung or 'sensitive'!

I DID see a rather nasty 'cure' carried out on a racehorse who reared constantly. The stable jockey (who was a hell of a good horseman) pulled him over, and they then tied him to the ground so he couldn't get up (he was literally roped and pegged down!) He was left there for several hours - then released and ridden up the track. Not a rear - ever again! BUT - he never raced with ANY success - his spirit was quite literally broken and he didn't WANT to win! He DID go on and become a successful Lady's Show Hack!

The problem with rearing is that it is SO easy for many horses and if it gets them what they want (i.e. to avoid going somewhere, getting rid of rider, whatever) then the behaviour DOES become habitual and it can be VERY hard to cure. They CAN be 'cured' - and go months without rearing - but as soon as circumstances change (whether it's a new yard, or a new rider, or whatever) they DO revert and start again. This suggests it is NOT a pain issue in many cases - it is a defiant sort of behaviour that has yielded results in the past!

The exception is horses who rear in particular ridden situations. Another rearer I accidentally bought ONLY reared when she saw a jump - she stood up in the air, leapt forward and then CHARGED the jump. I found out later - from someone who'd seen her on the circuit - that - because she was strong, she was put in a tight curb. That made her throw her head, so she was tied down with a tight running martingale. That caused her to start stopping, so spurs and beatings followed! What was the poor little mare to do?? She WAS cured, but it took months of quiet schooling, in a snaffle, with poles on the ground dotted around the school (she even reared and tried to jump those!) Once she realised she wasn't going to be hurt, she progressed to trotting quietly over poles on the ground, then tiny cross poles, then tiny jumps. Eventually she could jump a course in a sensible manner!

Bless them (the horses, not the riders!) There is always a reason for rearing - and it's usually related to a human!
 
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