Thoughts on this coloured stallion

[magic104]

What sort of mare do you think he would suit?
http://www.tokenbowstud.com/pictures_whitewatermountainmusic.htm

 

[Bossanova]

I think it is totally hideous and should have been gelded as a foal

 

[Abbeygale]

Sorry - that is not good - and wouldn't put it anywhere near a mare of mine

 

[tikino]

i have to agree with bossanova and say it is horrible and not fit for being a stallion

 

[DW Team]

Sorry Really do not think any mare should go anywhere near him!

 

[Thistle]

Yuk

 

[magic104]

Would you change your mind about him if he was producing the right sort of offspring? I agree, I am at a loss to understand how with 40yrs experience behind them, the stud feel he deserves to be standing as a stallion.

It takes say 5-6yrs to get an indication of how offspring are performing. A stallion can cover a lot of mares in that time. If he (White Mountain Music) is just churning out more of himself, (I just wonder how sound he would stay if he was competiting), & not improving on the next generation, should he not be gelded? And does this not add to the fuel a stallion should not be permitted to stand at public stud unless he proves he is worthy?

 

[millitiger]

i don't like the stallion at all myself and wouldn't use him on my girls BUT it does say one of his offspring is/was owned by Stella Baylis who i think is a good judge of a horse and has a good BE record.

the other progeny on his page looks ok too although obviously that is only 2 horses from however many he has sired... would be interesting to see what the rest of his stock look like (still wouldn't risk him on my mares though i'm afraid!).

edited to say, found Butterfly and her foal on BE website; butterfly herself didn't do too badly at Intro and her son has a nice record too;

http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=70037&section=000100010002

http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=79509&section=000100010002

obviously still at very low levels but the stallion's stud fee is under £150 so what do we expect... horses to go around Badminton?

 

[mealrigghallstud]

Needs his nooglies off ASAP!!!! He has hideous conformation and should not be reproducing under any circumstances - people can have 40yrs experience but still know diddly squat!!!

 

[casey2312]

I agree his conformation is awful. The one colt I saw of his, has equally bad conformation. Have to agree with the others on gelding him.

 

[JANANI]

Not my type. He reminds me of a stallion advertised in the farm week all the time which is similar to him and always wondered who would use him.

 

[AmyMay]

That's a real fugly horse of the day isn't it?

 

[Taffster]

My thought is it looks like its been used and abused when it comes to covering it looks like it could do with a few months off in a grassy field chilling out, obvisouly they are making it earn its keep!! Thats before any mention of its conformation or its looks.

 

[ColouredFan]

I wouldnt let him anywhere near my mare! He also looks poor which I dont think helps him much!

 

[alleycat]

TBH I think this is largely a matter of presentation. The middle photo does him no favours at all. The worst actual fault I can see are those upright pasterns. However, I can honestly say that I have seen horses with similar faults not just accepted but praised - and - dare I say it - even graded; the difference being that these were well presented, well ridden and generally shown in motion rather than being stood up for a conformation shot.

By coincidence I was earlier talking to friends about a very well liked, attractively coloured (graded, bred) BWB dressage sire with IMO the most upright front pasterns I have seen outside QH breeding- arguably worse than this horse. Unlike this horse he does seem to pass them on. Who is he? I dare not say; its a lot harder to pass negative comments on commercially clued up and influential establishments than it is on minor studs with little commercial awareness like the one being slated on here. The thread would be closed and I would be banned. You might not even notice this fault; I didn't until I saw a (rare) standing shot of a horse that normally looks beautiful in his promotional photographs.

As for 40 years experience- these people seem to have produced some good coloured horses in the past- maybe they are just coming to grips with the "new breeding"- the sportshorse /warmblood phenomenon- like a lot of us.

As to this horse- looking at his foals- several to see on other parts of the site- they aren't bad. I suspect he's a better horse than he looks- which is maybe just as well- and I would suggest that British breeding is in less danger from this lad, who is presented warts and all, with little likelihood that anyone posting here is going to be tempted to use him, than from choosing the wrong stallion from those who are expertly presented.

 

[madmare22]

Ugly, not well marked, poor conformation, poor body condition and not nicely presented.

 

[Bossanova]

Sorry but he has plenty of conformation faults in addition to his pasterns. They've managed to stand him up 3 times and get blooming awful pics so one might justifiably conclude that he is as bad as he looks!

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but he has plenty of conformation faults in addition to his pasterns. They've managed to stand him up 3 times and get blooming awful pics so one might justifiably conclude that he is as bad as he looks!

[/ QUOTE ]

But at least they HAVE stood him up- and no-one here has to use him. They aren't making exaggerated claims for him. His offspring- out of ordinary mares- look OK.

Why are people even bothering to criticise him? He is irrelevant to most people's breeding plans.

However, these same faults and others ARE present in horses that are more skilfully and less innocently presented. OK, there are other things to dislike, though for me the pasterns are the obvious and instant turn-off; but there is nothing about this horse that does not exist elsewhere in well marketed and supposedly well bred stallions; the big difference here IMO is that the poor presentation makes the faults obvious. For example, I don't like the angulation of the hind leg, either, but again IMO that is something very common- and not always easily visible even in a conformation shot if a horse is well stood up- as this horse isn't in any of his shots.

I would so love to present photos to show this, but again I think to do so with the horses of a more commercially aware stud would be forum suicide.

In fact when I see stud info that gives "mood" shots of the horse under saddle but does not include a conformation shot, pictures of the horse bare legged and unridden and for a mature horse, pictures of offspring I find myself asking why not.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that slagging off this horse is a pointless exercise and a bit unfair, IMO; the real danger to all of us as breeders are those sires whose faults are not made so painfully clear.

 

[angrovestud]

Here here as an ex coloured showing judge I am not passing comment on his type or comformation but I will stick my neck out and say, a coloured horse should not be judged on his or her markings but only on comformation and movement as minimal markings are something brought in only by producers who have gotten in to coloured LATE! and on the band wagon, no true colour breeders would want less white !.
let him do what the TB has to and let see what hes made of then pass your Comms.

 

[magic104]

I have said if a stallion is improving on the next generation & they are staying sound then fine. But there are enough stallions without such obvious issues, what makes this one worthy? He does not appear to have a track record competiting, does not have to be higher then RC level, just proves he can stay sound. It was not a case of slating the stallion, just proves how easy it is to stand one & I am not convienced that is such a good idea. A mare can only have 1 foal a year, hardly a detriment compared to what a stallion can churn out. I have seen so many horses off work because they have injuries related to upright pasterns. The tendons tend to suffer & it is a known problem. He has no engine, probably made worse from not being worked correctly.

The Akhal-Teke does not always have the best conformation but seem to stay sound enough & have had sucess in the competition arena. And yes the stud have had some nice horses, so perhaps they are right in their believe of this stallion.

 

[Daisychain]

If the horse was produced, had some top line on it, i think you would be looking at a much nicer model.

The stud fee reflects that they are not trying to produce world beaters.

If he is throwing sound riding club stock with nice temperaments then that is an acheivement in its self.

 

[cruiseline]

What do they say about owners and rose tinted glasses, well I feel this owner is wearing total blackouts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What really shocks me is not that is horse is obviously not stallion material, but that the owners think that the photos are good enough to promote him with.

 

[magic104]

If he is throwing sound riding club stock with nice temperaments then that is an acheivement in its self.

It is indeed, except he has more then one conformational flaw, therefore he is going to need some near perfect mares & I am not sure he will see many of them. There are far too many nicer stallions for not much more money to warrent keeping some of these entires that are seen. Forget grading/approval, there should be a limit on cover certs or what a stallion can cover if there are doubts about him. If he proves his sceptics wrong then fine. In my mind this sort of entire is not encouring an improvement in breeding, because there are enough good R/C level horses being bred from much better horses. Rightly or wrongly you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Daisychain]

Well we all have a choice, so at least you dont have to use him!

His stud fee is £140....

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT lol!

 

[magic104]

I sit corrected he does deserve his crown jewels, so what type of mare is he going to suite? And I might add that at £140 I can see a few more buggers being bred!!

 

[magic104]

The main issue missed by the way, is that of welfare. When you breed from an animal with such defects, very often it has an effect on it’s health. For horses it can manifest itself in behavioural problems, due to the discomfort felt. It is not just about soundness. If a horse can't use itself from behind then it can cause jarring which in turn can cause muscle damage. Problems in the feet area can manifest itself higher up, in the shoulder or the stifle area. Most horses that "act up" are in fact uncomfortable or feeling pain. Their pain thresh hold various as with people. Some horses will put up with years of feeling uncomfortable. For anyone who suffers lower back pain, you will understand. Some days are good others you feel cr@p. So breeding isn't just about getting something pretty, or that will win at the Olympics. It is about an animal who is happy in his work, who wants to work with you, & you stand a better chance is that animal is not having to compensate because you are putting strain on his body. A horse with upright pasterns does not make for a comfortable ride anyway. The fact that it can cause him pain, which in turn could actually lead him to be dangerous, means you try to eliminate that fault.

As I said, it has nothing to do with grading/approval, it has to do with improving on the next generation to eliminate the obvious. A mare is say 70%, sorry to say she can only eliminate so much. The fact that a stallion though, (as said before) can produce so many more offspring, it is even more important that only the best are permitted to carry on. I think we have seen enough proof in other animals, to understand why you try to breed from the least defected parents to start with. I wonder is anyone spotted the ad for a broodmare that had navicular. She also had very upright pasterns. Navicular though not necessarily hereditary in itself, is thought in some cases to be due to conformation of the foot, and/or upright pasterns etc. A horse that does not carry itself, but pounds on its forehand causing concussion to the feet can also be a cause.

As I said when you see how the way a horse is made & how it can affect its working life, you may actually think more carefully about what it is you think should & should not be passing on its genes.

 

[magic104]

Some more info on why you try to eliminate poor limbs;

http://horses-arizona.com/pages/articles/legset.html

Leg Set: Its Effect on Action and Soundness of Horses
Melvin Bradley
Department of Animal Sciences, University of Missouri-Columbia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is difficult to over-emphasize underpinning (feet and legs) when appraising the worth of a horse. Except for breeding stock, horses are useful only when in motion. In a very real sense, the horse is an athlete. Any physical handicap that causes it to be clumsy, use excessive energy to perform a task, be hard riding, lack strength or speed, or wear excessively, decreases its potential usefulness.
Good action is determined largely by set of the feet and legs, slope of the shoulders and pasterns, and shortness of back and coupling relative to length of underline or belly. Good performance reflects structural straightness, physical fitness and confidence gained from systematic training.

Breeders or prospective buyers can save much time by avoiding horses whose potential is limited by physical handicaps, such as crooked legs, if they become proficient in identifying handicaps and allocating their resources accordingly.

Some physical handicaps are "acquired" through faulty diet or injury, but probably far more of these are claimed than actually exist. In most cases the condition is genetic and must be charged to the sire and/or dam. For this reason, breeding animals, especially stallions, should be free of major conformation defects.


Correct and incorrect leg set
Correct leg set implies "a leg under each corner of the body," accompanied by adequate, straight bone with short cannons; long, correctly sloped pasterns and medium-sized, balanced feet.
A horse that stands correctly will almost always move correctly. Conversely, one that stands crooked must move likewise.


Front legs
A plumb line dropped from the point of the shoulder should bisect the knee, cannon, ankle and foot (Figure 1A). One dropped from the arm should bisect the forearm, knee, cannon, and fetlock, and pass behind the heel (Figure 2A). The pasterns should be compatible in length with breed requirements, slope at an angle of 45 degrees, and join the foot without changing this angle.
Figures 1B through 1F and 2B through 2F show common defects of front leg set that affect action.


Figure 1A. Straight legs, good front.
Figure 1B. Splay-footed.
Figure 1C. Pigeon-toed.
Figure 1D. Knock-kneed, narrow front, base wide.
Figure 1E. Base-narrow.
Figure 1F. Bow-kneed.


Figure 2A. Correct, good bone.
Figure 2B. Pastern too straight.
Figure 2C. Pastern too long and flat, angle different than foot, "coon-footed."
Figure 2D. Calf-kneed, short, straight pastern.
Figure 2E. Buck-kneed or over on the knee.
Figure 2F. "Tied in" or fine bone below the knee.

Splayed feet and pigeon toes are quite common and affect action in proportion to their degree. Knock knees, bowed knees and base-narrow defects are less common but affect action and predispose to unsoundnesses.

Short, straight pasterns increase concussion to the horse and rider, which seriously predispose the horse to unsoundnesses and induce fatigue to horse and rider.

Long, weak pasterns ride easily but affect action and are undesirable for good stops with roping horses.

Calf knees are common and detract from appearance, whereas buck knees are uncommon except with jumpers.

"Tied-in" below the knee or hock indicates inadequate tendon and ligament development for long, trouble-free service.


Hind legs
Bone structure of the hind leg determines, to a large degree, the set of the feet and legs, and to a lesser degree arrangement and shape of muscling in the hind quarters (Figure 4A). Correct leg set can't be achieved with crooked bones. Bone structure is genetically determined.
A plumb line dropped from the point of the buttock should bisect the thigh, gaskin, hock, cannon, fetlock, pastern and foot (Figure 3A). Viewed from the side, it should contact the back of the hock, cannon, and fetlock (Figure 4B).

Figures 3B through F and 4C through F show common faults of hind leg set.


Figure 3A. Straight legs.
Figure 3B. Slightly cow-hocked.
Figure 3C. Extremely cow-hocked, splay-footed.
Figure 3D. Bow-legged or bandy-legged or "too wide," pigeon toed.
Figure 3E. Base-narrow or stands close.
Figure 3F. Base-wide or stands wide.


Figure 4A. Correct skeletal structure.
Figure 4B. Correct leg set.
Figure 4C. Sickle-hocked or too much set.
Figure 4D. Post-legged or too straight, "coon-footed."
Figure 4E. Camped under or stands under.
Figure 4F. Defects of this magnitude should not be propagated.

Almost all horses display cow hocks to a degree. Some horse owners prefer that hocks point slightly toward each other with the feet pointing slightly outward. This is insurance against wide hocks or bandy legs.

Noticeable cow hocks are undesirable both from the standpoint of action and appearance.

Bandy legs or wide hocks seriously deter collected action and predispose to unsoundness.

Sickle hocks are quite common and are serious because of the stress placed on the hocks in performance and the many unsoundnesses that are associated with them.

View a stallion with sickle hocks with concern.

Boggy hocks usually are seen with post-legs.


Correct and incorrect action
Correct action. The feet and legs of a horse at the walk or trot should move straight ahead parallel to an imaginary center line in the direction of travel. The feet should rock upward from the heel and break over squarely at the toe and should rise with a snap. They should be carried forward in a straight arc with the highest point of the arc occurring at the center of travel or when the supporting leg is passed. They should be set solidly and squarely on the ground with toes pointing straight ahead. Any deviation from this procedure is a defect of action. See Figures 5 and 6. This is not to say that all good horses must have perfect action. Many compensate by intelligence, willingness, and practice; however, correct action would make them better horses.

Figure 5. Straight, true action.


Figure 6. Correct, true arc, balanced feet.


Some common incorrect actions:
Winding or rope walking. A tendency to swing the striding leg around and place it in front of the supporting leg (Figure 7).


Figure 7. Winding or rope walking.

Dishing or winging in. The striding foot swings inward in motion, then outward again at completion of stride (Figure 8).


Figure 8. Interfering or dishing or winging in.

Interfering. Striking the supporting leg, usually near the fetlock with the foot of the striding leg (Figure 8).
Paddling. An outward deviation in the fore foot and lower leg at flexion (Figure 9).


Figure 9. Paddling or winging.

Winging. Exaggerated paddling, most noticeable in high-going horses.
Forging. Striking the heel or undersurface of the shoe of a forefoot with the toe of a hind foot.
Rolling. Excessive lateral shoulder motion as with wide-fronted horses.
Pointing. A low, long stride.
Dwelling. A perceptible pause in the flight of the foot before it reaches the ground.
Trappy. A quick, high, short, jolting stride.
Pounding. Heavy contact, sometimes resulting from a heavy stride.

Specific effect of leg set on action and unsoundnesses
Pigeon toes tend to cause paddling or winging.
Splayed feet encourage dishing or winging in and may result in severe interfering and permanent injury.
Long, weak pasterns and shallow heels cause an irregular stride and may predispose to ringbone (Figure 10).


Figure 10. Incorrect arc, long toes, flat heels.

Short, straight pasterns and shoulders and deep heels are accompanied by a stilted, trappy stride and a tendency toward stiffness and sidebones (Figure 11).


Figure 11. Incorrect arc, short toes, high heels.

Long forearms, short cannons and sloping pasterns are conducive to long, springy, true strides and limbs that wear well (Figures 5 and 6).
Calf knees increase concussion and encourage a pounding gait.
Buck knees cause unstableness. When accompanied by long toes, they tend to cause stumbling.
Knock knees predispose to interfering.
Bow knees usually cause undue weight on the outside of the front feet, which tends to hasten sidebones.
Sickle hocks seldom accompany balanced conformation and motion. They must bear a disproportionate share of weight; therefore, spavins and curbs tend to develop.
Post legs are less common than sickle hocks but are equally serious. They seldom ride easy, are prone to crampy, boggy hocks and tend to cause low, skimming strides.
Bandy legs usually are unsteady or "limber hocked" and predispose to most unsoundnesses of the hock.

Straight underpinning does not guarantee a good performing horse, but it increases the probability of good performance.

 

[ProperBo]

just read this. stallion on ppics looks poorand pics do not do him any favours. He looks like hes missing a cart lol. but fairness to him they are bad bad shots.

I think the clue however is found on the location page where it says for security reasons we do not disclose the stud address...... Mmmmm any reputable stud would not put that even if they were worried the horses may get stolen.
Cant say i like any of them and there are much better stalions but as has been said we dont have to it!!.