AmyMay
Situation normal
This is also the experience of yards I have been on.
The YO's are interested, knowledgeable, caring, and not afraid to speak their mind.
thoughts on welfare of horses owned by inexperienced people
- Thread starter trick123
- Start date
This is also the experience of yards I have been on.
The YO's are interested, knowledgeable, caring, and not afraid to speak their mind.
Sealine
Well-Known Member
We lost our GSD to septicaemia. It will be five years ago on Saturday and my husband still hasn't got over it. The dog had a tiny wound on his paw that we weren't aware of until it started to swell. We took him to an emergency vet appointment at 11pm as it was swelling fast. He was treated with anti-biotics and everything appeared to be OK, swelling gone and wound healed. Two days after finishing the anti-biotics we found him dead. I'm not sure what more we could have done therefore I do sympathise with the owner of this horse.
Ali16
Well-Known Member
I have not read through the last page of this thread, so apologies if I am repeating anything but...
YOs can only influence/be responsible to a certain degree.. For example when the owner in question is being influenced/lead by someone with alterior motives (usually money) or as little experience as the poor owner.
For example, I am a YO and we had a lady come to us on part livery with an imported horse bought from her 'trusted instructor'. The horse was a MESS. Green snot pouring out of his nose, ribs everywhere, dreadful coat, weepy eyes, and chronically lame behind.
This was a 'schoolmaster' that the lady had paid a LOT of money for, unseen. Without going into how stupid that was, this posed an issue for us as the lady would not hear a bad word against the 'instructor' and he most definately would not sell her anything that was 'broken'.
I straight away said that we needed to call the vet and have him checked over etc, but she had none of it. Anyway, to cut a LONG story short, we mutually agreed that we had to end the livery contract as we did not agree on how she should keep the horse.
She moved it down the road to a friend's yard and it was not seen by a vet until the following year after he was sent out of a showing ring (yes - she was competing him) as he had snot pouring from his nose still.
Turned out he had bronchitis and both hind suspensories were totally shot.
Her 'instructor' says there is nothing wrong with the horse and she should keep riding it. Just one example of inexperienced people sadly being lead in the wrong direction by an 'expert'.
YOs can only influence/be responsible to a certain degree.. For example when the owner in question is being influenced/lead by someone with alterior motives (usually money) or as little experience as the poor owner.
For example, I am a YO and we had a lady come to us on part livery with an imported horse bought from her 'trusted instructor'. The horse was a MESS. Green snot pouring out of his nose, ribs everywhere, dreadful coat, weepy eyes, and chronically lame behind.
This was a 'schoolmaster' that the lady had paid a LOT of money for, unseen. Without going into how stupid that was, this posed an issue for us as the lady would not hear a bad word against the 'instructor' and he most definately would not sell her anything that was 'broken'.
I straight away said that we needed to call the vet and have him checked over etc, but she had none of it. Anyway, to cut a LONG story short, we mutually agreed that we had to end the livery contract as we did not agree on how she should keep the horse.
She moved it down the road to a friend's yard and it was not seen by a vet until the following year after he was sent out of a showing ring (yes - she was competing him) as he had snot pouring from his nose still.
Turned out he had bronchitis and both hind suspensories were totally shot.
Her 'instructor' says there is nothing wrong with the horse and she should keep riding it. Just one example of inexperienced people sadly being lead in the wrong direction by an 'expert'.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Interesting post Ali16 - and I do see the dilema.
However, I personally would have called the vet - and billed her for it.
However, I personally would have called the vet - and billed her for it.
Ali16
Well-Known Member
Yes - this is what I wanted to do, but her husband is a lawyer
and said that if we dared do anything like that 'there would be consequences'!
Kat
Well-Known Member
There are a good many like that. We have knowledgeable staff on our yard, as well as trainees doing NVQs. The yard where one of the horses I shared lived was also like that, there was someone on hand if needed and someone keeping an eye out for the horses. In fact the YO there tried to encourage the owner of my share horse to let me do more with him as she was worried about his weight and thought he needed more work. I have also overheard her telling owners that there horse needs its back/teeth/saddle doing or whatever, but people don't always listen. In fact I remember a novice owner removing their horse to a DIY yard, because of "interference" everyone could see that is was a disaster waiting to happen.
But I have also been on yards where the owners were totally disinterested, and often lack any relevant knowledge. You hear far too many instances of yard rules that are far from being in the horse's interests because of misguided beliefs of unhorsey yard owners. Or conversely yards where there is no one present taking any sort of interest whatsoever.
Kat
Well-Known Member
I think if it had green snot pouring from it's nose I woudn't have let it on the yard without the vet seeing it. Could very easily have communicated something very nasty to all the other horses and resulted in the whole yard being shut down.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Yes - this is what I wanted to do, but her husband is a lawyer
I really don't envy you that situation at all.
I wonder what consequences there could have been though - especially as the horse was obviously in need of veterinary treatment (therefore any legal action would have been defended in support by the Vet)?
The owner would have been negligent in not providing veterinary treatment for the horse. You on the other hand could not have been found guilty of anything other than protecting your business, livelihood and the welfare of an animal under your care.
Either way - tricky, I agree, and potentially expensive, not I suppose, that that particularly matters.
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AmyMay
Situation normal
Exactly.
Kat
Well-Known Member
With my legal hat on I don't think there would be any *legal* consequences for the YO calling a vet to an animal in obvious suffering. The vet would bill the owner and the owner might refuse to pay. The vet then might come after the person who called them out, who may or may not agree to pay.
Calling a vet is not a crime and i can't see that there would be any negative consequences beyond possibly getting landed with the vets bill. Having said that he may not have meant legal consequences....... he could have been referring to something more sinister...... or it could be an empty threat from a bully used to getting his own way.
Either way I wouldn't have let the horse set foot on my premises without agreement to vet treatment.
Ali16
Well-Known Member
We have isolation boxes for this very reason. He did not come into contact with any other horse and was totally isolated for the 24hrs that he was on our yard.
I was not willing to find out what the threatened consequences were as we had/have a large yard to run and owners horses competing regularly.
Call me uncaring/selfish etc but I had to put our livlihoods and the health of our and other client's horses first and was therefore not willing to have the horse looking ill on our yard for all to see. It does not look good for a yard to have an ill, unattended horse sitting in an isolation box.
We also had our landlords to think about - they kept their horses with us and were not happy that this horse was there at all.
Had the lady been willing to work WITH us to get the horse better, it would have been another story. The fact is SHE owned the horse, not me. I was responsible for it's welfare to the extent that I could call the vet but should she refuse to accept responsibility for the bill, it would be down to me to pay it.
Legally, the person who calls the vet for an animal is responsible for paying the final bill.
a kind of magic
Well-Known Member
Everyone is always learning. As many other people have said, the difference is being prepared to ask for help, from the right people.
I've been riding 15 years and owned my own horses for 10, I still have so much to learn. Even my first horse, who we still have, is bringing me new things to learn about. As he has gotten older (he is nearly 20) his care has changed, and so we have learnt more. I ask here if it's non urgent, ask the vet, or ask friends if I want a 2nd (or 3rd!) opinion, but I always ask more than one person and would never take one person's words as gospel.
I've been riding 15 years and owned my own horses for 10, I still have so much to learn. Even my first horse, who we still have, is bringing me new things to learn about. As he has gotten older (he is nearly 20) his care has changed, and so we have learnt more. I ask here if it's non urgent, ask the vet, or ask friends if I want a 2nd (or 3rd!) opinion, but I always ask more than one person and would never take one person's words as gospel.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Which is why, in your contract, you state that you have the right to call for a vet in a case deamed an emergency or required, and that responsibility for the debt is down to the owner. It's really not difficult.
-Sj-
Well-Known Member
I'm not ashamed to say.... I am one of those pony owners that most of yous hate!!
My daughter took lessons at a friends yard..... then I bought her a pony!! Having no experience of ever owning a horse or pony!! ( I await my slagging off!) We have been pony owners for a couple of years now.
But... he is well looked after, I am there every day.She is never left alone to do anything with him, I alway help or watch over them. I've read every book/ website I can possibly get my hands on. If I need help I will ask but mostly it is common sense. He wants for nothing but most importantly the YO's are amazing, with 70 years of knowledge between them to draw from. Even having someone to bat ideas about with helps!
Does the above mean I shouldn't have a pony?
He is loved and appreciated. Thats what matters IMO
My daughter took lessons at a friends yard..... then I bought her a pony!! Having no experience of ever owning a horse or pony!! ( I await my slagging off!) We have been pony owners for a couple of years now.
But... he is well looked after, I am there every day.She is never left alone to do anything with him, I alway help or watch over them. I've read every book/ website I can possibly get my hands on. If I need help I will ask but mostly it is common sense. He wants for nothing but most importantly the YO's are amazing, with 70 years of knowledge between them to draw from. Even having someone to bat ideas about with helps!
Does the above mean I shouldn't have a pony?
He is loved and appreciated. Thats what matters IMO
AmyMay
Situation normal
No slagging off from me. All you need is common sense and a bit of intelligence - it's not really rocket science. And the fact that you have a great YO is a brilliant support to have.
Picture please
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Who's the better owner - someone like this person ^, or someone who's had horses for yonks, reckons they know it all and refuses to think outside the box or take advice from anyone? I know who I think!
Let's face it, doing something for 20 years doesn't necessarily mean you've been doing it right for 20 years...
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
Very true! Also anyone who is willing to ask for advice and 2nd opinions is doing the right thing imho.
FDC
Ali16
Well-Known Member
Yes - my contract does, and did, state this, but this all happened within the first hour of the horse coming onto the yard. Usually when I have a new livery they come to the yard BEFORE the horse arrives, to sign everything and make sure that we are on a level playing field etc etc.
However, the lady was not happy to sign anything without her husband being present and promised that she would bring him with her BEFORE the arrival of the horse.
The transporter arrived before they did and the horse was literally chucked into the isolation box. I was not allowed to go onto the transporter before the horse was led off - the 'lovely' driver pretty much assulted me when I tried to have a look at the horse on the box.
NORMALLY there is a signed agreement in place BEFORE the horse arrives on the yard. For whatever reason (I don't like to think that the lady was being sneaky) she - along with her husband to sign the contract - arrived an hour after the horse did.
We have never had anything like this before or since, which goes to show that usually we have this kind of thing under control, as one would expect for a yard with horses regularly competing in FEI competitions. It is within our interests to make our systems robust enough to cope. Sadly this one got through.
Told you it was a long story!
PS I was inclined to think that the 'consequences' were not legal... I know that there is no law against calling a vet.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Nightmare Ali. Either way you were well shot!!!!!
glenruby
Well-Known Member
I have seen o many examples of this. It makes my blood boil.
In my opinion DIY livery is detrimental to the health and welfare of many many horses belonging to inexperienced owners. Most DIY yards provide this sort of livery as they dont want to have to have any input into the horses' care. This is why so many people do not know that DIY or not, YOs have a duty of care to the animals on their yard.
I think a Livery yard licence is the only way to improve the situation. In my experience it is usually the small run down and cheaper yards that have these issues - the very yards that would find it hard to get licenced. Larger yards tend to have more staff and I feel very strongly that livery yards should only be run by very experienced managers. Too many livery yards are owned by idiots with barely enough knowledge to keep their own horses let alone anyone elses. Also, it is quite often these small cheap yards that new/first time owners start off in as many do choose based on cost - then as they dvelop interests in areas of equestrianism they start chosing yards based on facilities etc.
When I was a kid, I bought my own pony when I was 13 and it was kept on grass livery on a yard 100m from home. There were 8 of us teenagers with our own competeion ponies- all on grass livery. Grass livery involved the yard owner keeping an eye on all the ponies as they were kept with his own in a large herd. On 2 occasions I can remember turning up to find my pony in stable with his leg or foot bandaged. I was then told he had been kicked and vet had been out and treated him - all sorted. I hadnt been called first as those were te days before mobile phones - just!! In my time in England (and I have been in over 100 yards here), I have only come across a handful of yard owners/managers with the knowledge and/or experience that my old yard owner has - and they were all on very professionally run yards some had DIY customers but the YOs did keep an eye on all horses on their premisies such as doing late checks and one morning check on all horses living atgrass or turned out by day.
ETA - Im not saying that all sall IY yards without posh facilities should be shut down/are at fault. What I am saying is that usually the ones where the YO doesnt care are the ones that are delapidated as they tend to be the sae people that dont wan to put any more money than they have to into maintaining facilities - just like they dont want to put any time into looking after someone elses horses.
I think irst time owners are best off keeping horses on assisted DIY or partlivery on good yards with knowledgable yard owners - unfortunately these are like hens teeth and therefore very expensive!!
In my opinion DIY livery is detrimental to the health and welfare of many many horses belonging to inexperienced owners. Most DIY yards provide this sort of livery as they dont want to have to have any input into the horses' care. This is why so many people do not know that DIY or not, YOs have a duty of care to the animals on their yard.
I think a Livery yard licence is the only way to improve the situation. In my experience it is usually the small run down and cheaper yards that have these issues - the very yards that would find it hard to get licenced. Larger yards tend to have more staff and I feel very strongly that livery yards should only be run by very experienced managers. Too many livery yards are owned by idiots with barely enough knowledge to keep their own horses let alone anyone elses. Also, it is quite often these small cheap yards that new/first time owners start off in as many do choose based on cost - then as they dvelop interests in areas of equestrianism they start chosing yards based on facilities etc.
When I was a kid, I bought my own pony when I was 13 and it was kept on grass livery on a yard 100m from home. There were 8 of us teenagers with our own competeion ponies- all on grass livery. Grass livery involved the yard owner keeping an eye on all the ponies as they were kept with his own in a large herd. On 2 occasions I can remember turning up to find my pony in stable with his leg or foot bandaged. I was then told he had been kicked and vet had been out and treated him - all sorted. I hadnt been called first as those were te days before mobile phones - just!! In my time in England (and I have been in over 100 yards here), I have only come across a handful of yard owners/managers with the knowledge and/or experience that my old yard owner has - and they were all on very professionally run yards some had DIY customers but the YOs did keep an eye on all horses on their premisies such as doing late checks and one morning check on all horses living atgrass or turned out by day.
ETA - Im not saying that all sall IY yards without posh facilities should be shut down/are at fault. What I am saying is that usually the ones where the YO doesnt care are the ones that are delapidated as they tend to be the sae people that dont wan to put any more money than they have to into maintaining facilities - just like they dont want to put any time into looking after someone elses horses.
I think irst time owners are best off keeping horses on assisted DIY or partlivery on good yards with knowledgable yard owners - unfortunately these are like hens teeth and therefore very expensive!!
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Cop-Pop
Well-Known Member
When I got my mare I'd been around horses for 16 years but never owned one - I'd part loaned a few, looked after loads and worked as a groom but nothing prepared me for actual ownership. I know I made mistakes but I've learned from them and as a consequence I'm a much better horse owner than before. Of course my mare still loves to throw new problems at me 
My parents are sort of horsey in that they rode when they were younger in the 40s/50s/60s but they pretty much left me to it (I was 20 so not exactly a kid 
) I read, tralwed the internet and asked people who I knew to know what they were talking about.
My parents are sort of horsey in that they rode when they were younger in the 40s/50s/60s but they pretty much left me to it (I was 20 so not exactly a kid ) I read, tralwed the internet and asked people who I knew to know what they were talking about.
Kat
Well-Known Member
Nope you are exactly the sort of owner that we shouldn't be slagging off. You seem to recognise your inexperience and are making every effort to learn and do your best for the pony. You are reading up, providing supervision and have found a yard with good support.
That is the ideal situation.
In the world of horses, you never know everything, we should all strive to learn everything we can. Many more experienced people would do well to take a tip from you.
-Sj-
Well-Known Member
Picture please
Ohhhh I like you!! Pic you want? pics you shall have!!!
1st place 2 weeks ago at PC jumping comp!!
a little at home jumping!
Kat
Well-Known Member
Ali, sounds like an absolute nightmare, thank goodness you have decent isolation facilities! Sounds like you did everything you could in a pretty horrible situation. It is all very well with hindsight to suggest that you could have done things differently but you weren't to know how things would turn out.
AmyMay
Situation normal
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!
badgerdog
Well-Known Member
I hear what you're saying but the young girl hasn't really done anything wrong. The vet was called and she followed their instructions. I really feel for her, her first horse has been found dead in a stable, she must be devastated. As others have said, she has to get her experience from somewhere and it's not her fault that she hasn't got horsey parents.
What I find hard to believe is that people on the livery yard weren't keeping an eye on her or her horse. That just wouldn't happen on my livery yard. Everyone watches out for other people's horses, not just the YO. We have had a few inexperienced people on our yard and the YO and all the liveries have been around for them.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Surely this is what books, Pony Club, the BHS, instructors, mentors, etc. are for? It is up to the horse's owner, no matter the age, to inform themselves and seek advice if a problem is beyond their experience? There are fewer and fewer people nowadays with experience of ANY animal husbandry - I do feel that people are buying horses, ponies, indeed any living creature, before they have the necessary knowledge to care for them. As many have said, we never know enough, but in my case I had the benefit of a rural upbringing amonst old fashioned horsemen. 100's of years of knowledge between them.
-Sj-
Well-Known Member
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aw taaa!
I do not attend any fancy dinner parties where I can boast about my daughter owning a pony.
The pony gets more pedicures and pampers than I do in a year!
I feel like I spend my life in my welly boots! but I wouldn't change it as we all love him to bits!
AmyMay
Situation normal
Ali16
Well-Known Member
Thanks... It was really nasty. The worst things about it was that the poor horse did not get an medical attention (it is still being ridden btw) and that we had known and trusted the lady in question for about a year prior to this all happening. She had lessons and training with my OH.
It really left a bad taste in my mouth and as horrid as it is to say, I just don't trust anyone any more.