Thoughts please ...........FEET

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Salcey

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I am just about to take on a horse that the vets say has pain in her feet. She has been scanned and xrayed and nothing has shown up. She has been box rested and field rested, worked harder and worked less and no difference. This showed up in 5 * vetting that horse had when it was about it be sold. She was 1/10 lame in a tight circle. Looking back there has been slight loss of performance in that she started having fences down and then stopping. She is currently being hacked out normally and competing in dressage at novice level.
The feet have been xrayed twice and nothing has shown up but my gut feeling is that it is probably early stage navicular. Does this always show up on xrays?
Her insurance has now run out so she is coming to me to hack. When she arrives I will take some photos of her feet, but can I have some thoughts please

Thanks
 
My mare always looked sound. She had abscesses that would never clear up and had tonnes of X-rays by lots of different vets in an attempt to find the cause of the abscesses. After dragging her to Leahurst she was diagnosed with septic pedal osteitis. I was lucky it was the septic form in a way because the constant puss told me something was deffo wrong.

Your probably thinking why the hell am I telling you this, well........ Pedal osteitis isn't always septic and is really difficult to spot on an x-ray, my mare looked sound to me but the vets at Leahurst said she was 1/10 lame, she had pain in her feet. Just something to consider?
 
Salcey said:
Hmm not heard of that before. It would make sense to some degree. Loudabell what was the prognosis on your mare?
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She had the affected pedal bone removed from both feet under GA! We had no choice in the matter as the infected bone was causing constant puss and discharge that presented as perminant abscesses. She currently has massive holes in the front of her hoofs and has been on box rest for 4 months BUT the vets said she should return to as good as normal in the end. I only want her as a hack though. She was turned out today and tbh moved brilliantly, even when she jumped out the bloody field!

Since I discovered all of this though I have spoken to people who's horses have had non septic pedal osteitis and they've managed to keep them in work with remedial shoeing Etc. from what I can gather it can either be caused by poor conformation or foot balance, too much work on hard surfaces creating concussion or a puncture wound that causes an infection in the pedal bone.

A seriously good quality X-ray should pick it up but my vets missed it for 8 months! It was only when we went to Leahurst that it was diagnosed.
In my mares case we can't tell if it was poor conformation that created an issue or really deep abscesses that then infected the pedal bone and created further abscesses.

Hope you get to the bottom of it all
 
Ok, here are some pictures:

nearside fore
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offside fore
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The nearside foot seems slightly bigger so they are definately not a pair. They are also small for her build shes 16:2 tb and was shod 2 weeks ago. Also learnt today that they've tried eggbars with no success.
On the upside had a lovely hack today :-)
 
The horse has growth rings that could suggest that she is simply suffering from a little early laminitis. Vets often miss this. Is she sound in winter? Does she have a cresty neck in front of the wither?

She also has serious underrun heels if the photos are true to life (which they often aren't). That could also account for the slight lameness.

If she always stands pointing like that it can indicate heel pain. Ditto.

Does she have a pretty severe injury to the inside of the near/left fore?
 
Agree with CPTrayes, but I also thought that the heels look thrushy and contracted. My first guess would be pain in the back of the foot caused by a weak caudal hoof.
 
Salcey said:
Please excuse the ignorance, but how do I treat the thrush? and yes this is a normal stance.
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Pete Ramey reccommends a 50:50 mix of antibiotic cream and athlete's foot cream, syringed down into the central sulcus, as far as I know, this is the most effective method of treatment. There are others, though - white lightning, milton and sudocreme, redhore field paste, and I've heard good things about hypospray from horseware.

I'm not certain if it's possible for the heel to decontract with the shoes still on, though. It may be, but I suspect you may struggle.
 
I've always used hydrogen peroxide as reccomended by my farriers for thrush. I know some people think it may be a bit harsh but I swear by it
 
TwoStroke said:
Pete Ramey reccommends a 50:50 mix of antibiotic cream and athlete's foot cream, syringed down into the central sulcus, as far as I know, this is the most effective method of treatment. There are others, though - white lightning, milton and sudocreme, redhore field paste, and I've heard good things about hypospray from horseware.

I'm not certain if it's possible for the heel to decontract with the shoes still on, though. It may be, but I suspect you may struggle.
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*Sorry, should have been hypocare by horseware.
 
Anything that is anti bacterial and anti fungal that doesn't harm live tissue.

I use Red Horse ArtiMud and/or Field Paste but I have had equally impressive results with Sudocrem in the days before posh pastes - you can plaster a swab with it and cram them in nooks and crannies.

I like iodine as a spray for all ills too.

The BEST treatment for thrush is a healthy diet that makes the horse more resistant and movement to allow the horse to create tissue faster than the thrush eats it.

But with shod hooves with contracted heels and sulci - the best you can hope for is to manage it and wait for the ground to dry (not much chance of that :().
 
I agree with the others above. Heel pain would be one of my first thoughts, along with Low grade lami.

Her hoof structure does appear to be compromised - particularly the near fore so it is no wonder she is lame.

Re the thrush, dulute one part Milton to 3 parts water and spray on and scrub into all cracks and crevices dailyfor a week as part of your hoof care routine. Then reduce to every other day and then twice weekly to keep any nasties at bay :)
 
Sorry to hear about your mare - lovely dapple bay by the way :-)

With regard to the vet stating she is in pain, what did he mean exactly ?

1. did he check the levels of pain with hoof testers ?
2. How is she on soft vs hard ground ?
3. How is she when you turn her on a tight circle (left and right)?
4. How does she place her feet when she walks ? toe first or heel first ?
5. One particular foot or feet ?
6. How is the shoe being worn ? more on one side then the other ?
7. Diet and work combination needs to be documented.
8. Did the vet perform the board test with respect to navicular ?

Hoof rings certainly are markers to take note of as they are an important barometer of health of the horse's body, but they are not just restricted to laminitic events on their own; diet, stress, abscess, infection etc and hoof dysfunction can cause rings to appear. With shod horses many of the rings are rasped away along with the periople. so you don't get a true picture from the coronary band downwards.

With regard to thrush it isn't easy to see from the photos clearly if there is an infection although if there is it is more likely in the collateral grooves as the actual frog is intact, I have seen worse cases of thrust infection before now where the complete frog has disintigrated into a mushy mess :-)
 
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Hello, well, although I'm a barefoot fan, its a sympathetic shoeing job given the horse's history. As Caroline says, the first thing you have to look at is diet, the indicator that shouts to me as well as the growth ring is the coronary bands. They're very pink and inflammed. In my experience this is a sure sign of inflammation within the foot, and if its in all feet, then its low grade laminitis. So sort out the diet and these should return to a darker colour, and stop bulging.

Do that first.

Second, double clip shoes on front feet tells me that the farrier has been fighting an underrun foot with a long (forward) toe. Feet like this are prone to developing navicular in varying degrees, and in the early stages all you will see on xray is the coffin bone being at a lower angle than ideal.

So, once you've sorted out the diet and the horse is standing better, if it were mine I'd then whip the shoes off and get the foot back under the horse naturally to get it properly sound and extend its sound/working life.
 
texel said:
Sorry to hear about your mare - lovely dapple bay by the way :-)

With regard to the vet stating she is in pain, what did he mean exactly ?

1. did he check the levels of pain with hoof testers ?
2. How is she on soft vs hard ground ?
3. How is she when you turn her on a tight circle (left and right)?
4. How does she place her feet when she walks ? toe first or heel first ?
5. One particular foot or feet ?
6. How is the shoe being worn ? more on one side then the other ?
7. Diet and work combination needs to be documented.
8. Did the vet perform the board test with respect to navicular ?

Hoof rings certainly are markers to take note of as they are an important barometer of health of the horse's body, but they are not just restricted to laminitic events on their own; diet, stress, abscess, infection etc and hoof dysfunction can cause rings to appear. With shod horses many of the rings are rasped away along with the periople. so you don't get a true picture from the coronary band downwards.

With regard to thrush it isn't easy to see from the photos clearly if there is an infection although if there is it is more likely in the collateral grooves as the actual frog is intact, I have seen worse cases of thrust infection before now where the complete frog has disintigrated into a mushy mess :-)
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Thank you for your comments, its very hard for me to answer as I have limited information from the previous owner.

1. did he check the levels of pain with hoof testers ? I would like to think so but do not know for sure
2. How is she on soft vs hard ground ? Slightly footy on our stoney track but otherwise fine on tarmac
3. How is she when you turn her on a tight circle (left and right)? Have not lunged but fine on the ground day to day
4. How does she place her feet when she walks ? toe first or heel first ? Defo toe first.
5. One particular foot or feet ? Both
6. How is the shoe being worn ? more on one side then the other ? Hard to say as recently shod and not done enough work for wear although toes are begining to mark
7. Diet and work combination needs to be documented. Horse now on a barefoot diet of minerals, fast fibre and linseed.
8. Did the vet perform the board test with respect to navicular ? Again would like to think so but don't know. I know the feet were xrayed twice....
 
Andalucian said:
Hello, well, although I'm a barefoot fan, its a sympathetic shoeing job given the horse's history. As Caroline says, the first thing you have to look at is diet, the indicator that shouts to me as well as the growth ring is the coronary bands. They're very pink and inflammed. In my experience this is a sure sign of inflammation within the foot, and if its in all feet, then its low grade laminitis. So sort out the diet and these should return to a darker colour, and stop bulging.

Do that first.

Second, double clip shoes on front feet tells me that the farrier has been fighting an underrun foot with a long (forward) toe. Feet like this are prone to developing navicular in varying degrees, and in the early stages all you will see on xray is the coffin bone being at a lower angle than ideal.

So, once you've sorted out the diet and the horse is standing better, if it were mine I'd then whip the shoes off and get the foot back under the horse naturally to get it properly sound and extend its sound/working life.
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Good to know the shoeing job is not that bad :-)
Am now intending to give the horse a few months on the new diet and then hopefully remove the shoes and see how we go!
 
Just as an update. We've had the horse two weeks now and have been on the new diet around 10 days. The coronary bands are no longer pink and inflamed they are now firm and dark in colour. We are hacking out as normal with very little difficulty, the only slight problem is that we have a gravel driveway and shes slightly tender as we walk out but once we've got going nothing is a problem.
 
I'd agree with Andalucian.

You would probably find that the digital cushion is knackered giving rise to the navicular type symptoms. Getting the shoes off when things settle will improve this.
 
Salcey said:
Just as an update. We've had the horse two weeks now and have been on the new diet around 10 days. The coronary bands are no longer pink and inflamed they are now firm and dark in colour. We are hacking out as normal with very little difficulty, the only slight problem is that we have a gravel driveway and shes slightly tender as we walk out but once we've got going nothing is a problem.
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Well done, I'm glad that was the main problem. Now you have to remember this little educational period, and if your horse is ever "off" again, take drastic diet steps as a first check, I believe about 70% of horses in the UK suffer from inflammation foot pain of varying degrees from being a bit sluggish right up to chronic laminitic.
 
I find it so hard to understand how this horse has had £££ spent on it and basically been written off (hence coming to me) when adjusting the diet has made such a teriffic difference in such a short space of time. I realise we've a long way to go and will probably have many ups and downs but I'm so pleased at the intial difference. Next step shoes off!
 
Salcey said:
I find it so hard to understand how this horse has had £££ spent on it and basically been written off (hence coming to me) when adjusting the diet has made such a teriffic difference in such a short space of time. I realise we've a long way to go and will probably have many ups and downs but I'm so pleased at the intial difference. Next step shoes off!
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Welcome to the club!

The rehab I did was 24 hours off being put to sleep. Now sound for 2 years and jumping, and winning showing nationally and dressage elementary locally.

There are now dozens of us with horses that maxed out their insurances that only needed a good diet and time out of shoes to completely set them right.

Good luck, and enjoy your mare. I hope you own her, and no-one is going to take her back once you have resolved all her lameness issues?
 
Welcome to my world, written off horses are my speciality :) Shoes off are part of the remedy, but its best to get the diet right whilst they're still in shoes to set you up for a good transition out of them.
 
cptrayes said:
Welcome to the club!

The rehab I did was 24 hours off being put to sleep. Now sound for 2 years and jumping, and winning showing nationally and dressage elementary locally.

There are now dozens of us with horses that maxed out their insurances that only needed a good diet and time out of shoes to completely set them right.

Good luck, and enjoy your mare. I hope you own her, and no-one is going to take her back once you have resolved all her lameness issues?
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Yep horse is all mine!!
 
Andalucian said:
Welcome to my world, written off horses are my speciality :) Shoes off are part of the remedy, but its best to get the diet right whilst they're still in shoes to set you up for a good transition out of them.
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Out of interest how long would you give it before taking the shoes off. I was thinking a couple of months or so.
 
Salcey said:
Out of interest how long would you give it before taking the shoes off. I was thinking a couple of months or so.
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Rockley asks for 6 weeks minimum, so anything over that fitting in with when she is due to be shod would be good. Take lots of photos, have lots of fun!

There really is no greater joy than going out and doing stuff on a horse other people were going to put to sleep on the advice of vets and farriers :D





pd Andalucian I am KICKING myself I did not spot those inflamed coronet bands! They are so obvious now you point them out. Well done!!
 
cptrayes said:
pd Andalucian I am KICKING myself I did not spot those inflamed coronet bands! They are so obvious now you point them out. Well done!!
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You would have done if it were yours [content removed]. I've seen quite a few this summer, they tend to be on TBs who show no other signs of lami, thin types, but nevertheless, the diet change fixes them very quickly. I missed it the first time I saw it, but never again

2 months on the correct diet is a good period to allow, then make sure you get someone recommended to help you though the shoe removal/correct trim (if necessary) and what to do with the horse in the early transition stages. It is a bit scary for the first couple of weeks, then the turn a corner and start to show you a bigger stride, happier personality followed by soundness returning and many other joys.
 
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