Thoughts South Herefordshire hunt.

[Clodagh]

You can't see the difference between one or two terriers taking a rat in a stable yard and a pack of riders on horseback following a pack of hounds chasing fox across miles of countryside?

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No. What’s earthly difference do the riders make to the fox? Cubbing excepted.

 

[palo1]

It's used for detering other mammals in gardens, rabbits, cats etc.

Thank you for this ester! I didn't know that. Poor blooming foxes having their wee harvested.

 

[palo1]

You can't see the difference between one or two terriers taking a rat in a stable yard and a pack of riders on horseback following a pack of hounds chasing fox across miles of countryside?

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Two terriers on a rat or two hounds on a fox seems very similar. Alternatively a number of terriers on a rat (as is advertised and, I assume legal) or a number of hounds on a fox. No, I don't see a huge difference I am afraid.

 

[ester]

rats have some exemptions in the hunting act re. using more than two. Iirc it is if land owner, or with permission of.

 

[palo1]

Yes, you are right ester but I have never seen why if hunting a fox or hare with more than 2 dogs is cruel, that hunting rats with more than 2 dogs isn't. It may be because there is much more of a public appetite for killing rats than foxes though that in no way makes any welfare or moral sense. I have never actually heard any anti-hunt protester complain about the killing of rats with dogs.

 

[ycbm]

Have I missed something? Since when did terriers chase rats across country before killing them?

And if you really can't see what difference it makes to Joe Public that a pack of fox hounds is followed by a pack of riders apparently enjoying the sport of killing an animal, then you conform neatly to the stereotype hunter model that the sabs want to see removed from the countryside.

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[palo1]

ycbm, you know full well that the 'sport' of fox hunting had nothing to do with the killing of the fox but is entirely to do with following hounds and crossing the country. There are 2 reasons why people enjoy hunting - watching hounds working and those that love riding across country. I have never met anyone that enjoys killing foxes or watching foxes killed. Possibly sabs get a thrill out of finding a dead fox so that they can set up an entirely invented set of circumstances around the death of that animal... In the same way people who watch wildlife documentaries are equally enthralled by watching a pride of lions, a tiger, leopard, whatever hunting: there are no moral sanctions on those people even though they could be seen as 'loving' watching the death of antelope etc, though I appreciate that a pack of hounds is a man-made thing. Those that work terriers love watching them work too and I doubt they 'love' watching rats being killed. I think you are being disingenous. Also, I am as much Joe Public as anyone. Stereotypes work for some people on some occasions to describe a version of something. Stereotypes are not truths. I very much doubt that I would conform to any sab's idea of a 'stereotype hunter model' and am far more likely to be viewed with considerable suspicion by that invented person....

 

[mariew]

I wish people would spend as much time and passion on other issues in the world as they do hunting, as the latter seems to bring out some pretty extreme opinions and take up a considerable amount of time arguing against or for. I understand the rat comparison, why is it ok to kill one animal by hunting but not a different species? I doubt pheasants enjoy being shot at day in day out in hunting season, not much noise about them either.

But then i think the more we lose touch with nature and countryside and lock ourselves indoors, the more "joe public" will have opinions on issues like these. There are a fair few people around where we are who don't think horses should be on the roads and have very strong opinions on this (or cyclists for that matter).

I would have loved to have done a hunt on my girl, but certainly not for the painted stereotype "tally ho lets go kill a fox", it would have been for a big ride in the countryside with lots of other people, challenging my nerves .

 

[palo1]

It baffles me too mariew - there are so, so many more significant animal welfare issues (as well as other things) that would really benefit from the passion and energy that is expended on the hunting issue. Killing one intelligent social mammal with a group of others seems quite clear to me in it's broader moral/logical sense and I suspect the reason other people don't understand the 'rat comparison' has very little to do with logic and more to do with embedded prejudices. I feel quite strongly about that especially as I have considerable admiration for rats, even though we live on a smallholding and it is very hard to tolerate their ways in relation to the damage they cause. I quite agree too about what happens when we lose touch with nature and increasingly try to control a world that is hugely complex and where there can be so many different perspectives on any one thing! I do want to reiterate though that as in the subject of the original post, what happened in South Herefordshire is utterly vile and despicable. Those people should not be near any animal for any reason.

 

[ycbm]

ycbm, you know full well that the 'sport' of fox hunting had nothing to do with the killing of the fox but is entirely to do with following hounds and crossing the country. There are 2 reasons why people enjoy hunting - watching hounds working and those that love riding across country. I have never met anyone that enjoys killing foxes or watching foxes killed. Possibly sabs get a thrill out of finding a dead fox so that they can set up an entirely invented set of circumstances around the death of that animal... In the same way people who watch wildlife documentaries are equally enthralled by watching a pride of lions, a tiger, leopard, whatever hunting: there are no moral sanctions on those people even though they could be seen as 'loving' watching the death of antelope etc, though I appreciate that a pack of hounds is a man-made thing. Those that work terriers love watching them work too and I doubt they 'love' watching rats being killed. I think you are being disingenous. Also, I am as much Joe Public as anyone. Stereotypes work for some people on some occasions to describe a version of something. Stereotypes are not truths. I very much doubt that I would conform to any sab's idea of a 'stereotype hunter model' and am far more likely to be viewed with considerable suspicion by that invented person....

You can't have it both ways. Either the sport is required to cull foxes, or it is not required. Fox hunting can't possibly be 'nothing to do with the killing of the fox'.

Nobody loved riding cross country more than me. But having seen the reality of both cubbing and a frightened fox running for its life just in front of a pack of baying hounds, I decided that no amount of enjoyment justified me going fox hunting.

You aren't Joe Public, you are an ardent hunt supporter. That puts you distinctly in a minority in this country. Your absolute blindness to how others feel about your sport or why they feel that way is typical, ime, of hunt supporters.


..

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I expect the public at large dont know that people are killing rats with dogs tbh and wouldnt like it much if they did.

 

[palo1]

You can't have it both ways. Either the sport is required to cull foxes, or it is not required. Fox hunting can't possibly be 'nothing to do with the killing of the fox'.

Nobody loved riding cross country more than me. But having seen the reality of both cubbing and a frightened fox running for its life just in front of a pack of baying hounds, I decided that no amount of enjoyment justified me going fox hunting.

You aren't Joe Public, you are an ardent hunt supporter. That puts you distinctly in a minority in this country. Your absolute blindness to how others feel about your sport or why they feel that way is typical, ime, of hunt supporters.


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Ah. Well the 'sport' is not that of culling foxes: that is a job carried out by a professional huntsman. You know that. The sport is the following of hounds as I said. But as you pointed out I am an ardent hunt supporter - whatever that means these days and yes I am in a minority in this country. I am absolutely not blind to how others feel - I am very clearly aware of the feelings of the anti-hunt lobby. That is not what this particular discussion was about: I know exactly how angry, hurt and frustrated the anti-hunting lobby feel about those that participate in hunting these days. Please don't assume what you cannot possibly know. I too have been anti-hunting in the past, as I have stated and I have felt anger and despair on behalf of hunted foxes and outrage and fury at those engaging in hunting. I do not feel like that any more. Perhaps, rather than blindness to the feelings of others, hunt supporters feel that they are justified on quite specific grounds for supporting hunting. That is a scenario that many people simply won't even consider - because it would lead to questioning why perfectly reasonable, respectable people who hold down jobs across the spectrum and who have a huge range of life, educational and professional experiences would choose to engage in this activity. That leads to some uncomfortable thoughts for some and so they remain embedded in their existing view. It is human nature to remain thinking what is both comfortable and popular and I don't resent anyone for it.

 

[palo1]

I expect the public at large dont know that people are killing rats with dogs tbh and wouldnt like it much if they did.

I suspect most people would not care how a rat dies, as long as they don't have to deal with it!

 

[ycbm]

Ah. Well the 'sport' is not that of culling foxes: that is a job carried out by a professional huntsman. You know that. The sport is the following of hounds as I said. But as you pointed out I am an ardent hunt supporter - whatever that means these days and yes I am in a minority in this country. I am absolutely not blind to how others feel - I am very clearly aware of the feelings of the anti-hunt lobby. That is not what this particular discussion was about: I know exactly how angry, hurt and frustrated the anti-hunting lobby feel about those that participate in hunting these days. Please don't assume what you cannot possibly know. I too have been anti-hunting in the past, as I have stated and I have felt anger and despair on behalf of hunted foxes and outrage and fury at those engaging in hunting. I do not feel like that any more. Perhaps, rather than blindness to the feelings of others, hunt supporters feel that they are justified on quite specific grounds for supporting hunting. That is a scenario that many people simply won't even consider - because it would lead to questioning why perfectly reasonable, respectable people who hold down jobs across the spectrum and who have a huge range of life, educational and professional experiences would choose to engage in this activity. That leads to some uncomfortable thoughts for some and so they remain embedded in their existing view. It is human nature to remain thinking what is both comfortable and popular and I don't resent anyone for it.

You are deluding yourself if you are making a mental disconnect between the killing of foxes and the sport of following hounds killing foxes. They are inextricably linked.



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[palo1]

Not deluded at all: I am perfectly aware that following hounds before the Hunting Act was likely (but not certain) to be associated with the killing of foxes on any occasion.

 

[Tiddlypom]

H&H's piece on the South Herefordshire Hunt atrocities is finally available for reading by their non VIP subscribers. It includes a reaction from the MFHA.



Lord Mancroft, MFHA chairman.

"Something like this had never happened before and I hope it will never happen again".

Balls, your lordship. Next you'll be insisting that there is no illegal hunting going on in licensed foxhound packs.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

people need training to tell them throwing cubs to hounds is wrong?

 

[Tiddlypom]

people need training to tell them throwing cubs to hounds is wrong?

Apparently .

 

[Tiddlypom]

Genuine question.

How in the post ban foxhunting world do packs who legally comply with the law train their new intake of hounds to follow a fox scent trail without harming a fox?

I know how it used to be done preban, when cubbing was permitted. We know the South Herefordshire Hunt's take on how to train hounds post ban . So what is best legal practice these days?

 

[Leo Walker]

The same way I trained my whippet to do scent work I imagine. Hes trained to cloves but you can pick any strongish scent. It doesnt have to involve barbaric cruelty, thats just quicker and easier I'd imagine!

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's time for foxhound packs to open up their premises and to display how their hounds are kept, exercised and trained. The MFHA are being as much use as a chocolate teapot, but this is what you need to be doing.

THIS IS HUNTING UK STATEMENT RE SOUTH HEREFORDSHIRE HUNT
FOLLOWING BIRMINGHAM COURT CASE

This is Hunting UK utterly condemns the actions of the four South Herefordshire Hunt members of the workforce found guilty today at Birmingham Magistrates Court for animal cruelty offences.

A spokesman said: “We are pleased these four have been brought to justice. Their behaviour was shameful, totally unacceptable, and has horrified and appalled the hunting community. Their actions were illegal and against all the recommended practices for hunt kennels.”

“We would like to make it perfectly clear that these four were ‘bad apples’ and untypical of hunt staff. They are an exception. If anyone has any doubts about this and how hounds are kept in hunt kennels, they should contact their local hunt and ask for a guided tour from hunt staff which will show them the care and excellent management that goes on in kennels in total openness.”

“In the Summer of 2019, hunts up and down the country will be opening their kennels for all to see exactly what goes on. There is nothing whatsoever to hide, so feel free to message us for more information.”

It is up to the hunting fraternity to prove that you are complying with the letter and the spirit of the law in all ways. The public will no longer accept your weasel words of reassurance, even if they have been fooled into doing so in the past.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I suspect most people would not care how a rat dies, as long as they don't have to deal with it!

lol, you're not wrong there. My staff have hysterics if they find a spider in the bwl when they inse a coffee cup! And a RAT - Aaaggghhhh - hysteria. (Even after mt terriers have killed it PDQ!) Or a rabbit with myxi! Yep - I get called fr that too - they can't bear to see it dying in front of them - but can't put it out of its misery. The general population don't know they joy of riding cross country, on land that wouldn't be available to 'ordinary' riders. The camaraderie, the friendships made, are what it's all about. If most followers saw ONE fox killed a season (when it was legal) they'd be doing rather 'better' than normal. Fa cheaper to go pheasant shooting if you want a 'kick' out of killing - or seeing death. But the public see hunting as the sport of toffs - rich upper class guys and gals - and nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I suspect most people would not care how a rat dies, as long as they don't have to deal with it!

lol, you're not wrong there. My staff have hysterics if they find a spider in the bwl when they inse a coffee cup! And a RAT - Aaaggghhhh - hysteria. (Even after mt terriers have killed it PDQ!) Or a rabbit with myxi! Yep - I get called fr that too - they can't bear to see it dying in front of them - but can't put it out of its misery. The general population don't know they joy of riding cross country, on land that wouldn't be available to 'ordinary' riders. The camaraderie, the friendships made, are what it's all about. If most followers saw ONE fox killed a season (when it was legal) they'd be doing rather 'better' than normal. Fa cheaper to go pheasant shooting if you want a 'kick' out of killing - or seeing death. But the public see hunting as the sport of toffs - rich upper class guys and gals - and nothing could be further from the truth

 

[palo1]

It's time for foxhound packs to open up their premises and to display how their hounds are kept, exercised and trained. The MFHA are being as much use as a chocolate teapot, but this is what you need to be doing.

THIS IS HUNTING UK STATEMENT RE SOUTH HEREFORDSHIRE HUNT
FOLLOWING BIRMINGHAM COURT CASE

This is Hunting UK utterly condemns the actions of the four South Herefordshire Hunt members of the workforce found guilty today at Birmingham Magistrates Court for animal cruelty offences.

A spokesman said: “We are pleased these four have been brought to justice. Their behaviour was shameful, totally unacceptable, and has horrified and appalled the hunting community. Their actions were illegal and against all the recommended practices for hunt kennels.”

“We would like to make it perfectly clear that these four were ‘bad apples’ and untypical of hunt staff. They are an exception. If anyone has any doubts about this and how hounds are kept in hunt kennels, they should contact their local hunt and ask for a guided tour from hunt staff which will show them the care and excellent management that goes on in kennels in total openness.”

“In the Summer of 2019, hunts up and down the country will be opening their kennels for all to see exactly what goes on. There is nothing whatsoever to hide, so feel free to message us for more information.”

It is up to the hunting fraternity to prove that you are complying with the letter and the spirit of the law in all ways. The public will no longer accept your weasel words of reassurance, even if they have been fooled into doing so in the past.

A great many packs have open days/kennel visits etc and some have days where schools etc visit. Many packs have their own hound/puppy shows at the kennels and all the kennels are licensed and inspected though I would imagine the standards vary...I think if relations between pro and anti hunting groups could be slightly improved (clearly not easy in light of the ghastly SHH revelations) then it would all feel more open and transparent.

 

[palo1]

Genuine question.

How in the post ban foxhunting world do packs who legally comply with the law train their new intake of hounds to follow a fox scent trail without harming a fox?

I know how it used to be done preban, when cubbing was permitted. We know the South Herefordshire Hunt's take on how to train hounds post ban . So what is best legal practice these days?

What I would like to know is how to discourage a dog or hound from following a scent...in my experience it comes incredibly naturally to all of my pet dogs: don't most dogs, especially those with strong scenting abilities just absolutely naturally want to follow rat/rabbit/cat/other dog/fox trails unless absolutely trained not to- with the scent of fox being one of the most tantalising? I have never had a pet dog that didn't want to investigate and follow that with absolutely no 'training' needed. Some draghounds are trained using their huntsman's wee...one of the problems with that though is with supply (!!) and the fact that this may not be as strong or interesting as other things.

 

[ester]

ebay keeps emailing me with links to fox piss

 

[Tiddlypom]

Haha ester!

palo1, I too am interested in how foxhounds are trained just to follow fox scent, and not to riot onto other species such cats, alpacas, sheep...

Plus in how hounds are trained to be called off from hunting if it becomes clear that they have switched from a trail to a forbidden species. That must be very difficult if they are intent on persuing their prey?

 

[ycbm]

Haha ester!

palo1, I too am interested in how foxhounds are trained just to follow fox scent, and not to riot onto other species such cats, alpacas, sheep...

Plus in how hounds are trained to be called off from hunting if it becomes clear that they have switched from a trail to a forbidden species. That must be very difficult if they are intent on persuing their prey?

It was interesting when the drag pack picked up fox, their voices sounded different, very excited. They were taught to stop to the command 'hold hard', and though I saw them pick up fox (I assume) several times, they never got further than a hundred yards before they were brought back under control and put on the right scent.

Whippers in carry long thonged whips and crack them at the hounds to control them. They will hit disobedient hounds, but they don't normally need to.

The same level of control is somehow supposed to be impossible of fox hunting packs which have picked up the wrong scent. I don't accept that argument, the hounds are all foxhounds.

 

[Fragglerock]

Thank you for this ester! I didn't know that. Poor blooming foxes having their wee harvested.

Poor mares having the same for HRT treatments

 

[Mule]

Poor mares having the same for HRT treatments

A lot of that has been outsourced to China. You can imagine how much worse it will be for them there They don't seem to consider animals as sentient or if they do, they don't care.