Thread #112 about people over-estimating their abilities... WHY?

Embo

Embo

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Why why why do people do it!?

My gelding is up for loan as, unfortunately, my previous sharer got a new job and no longer has the time. So annoying because she was a lovely girl and handled Tom well. Wasn't the best rider, but she was kind and had lovely soft hands, so she was perfect for hacking him out and doing basic school work to keep him ticking over twice a week.

I've put quite a long and honest advert up - warts and all - to discourage the novices and hopefully attract someone with at least a bit of horse-sense. The advert stated (more than once!!) 'absolutely NO novices'. Not surprisingly, the ad has been up for a week and a half and I've only had 2 responses. Not bothered by this, finding the right person takes time and not many people looking to share are interested in a not-so-easy horse, even if he can go far in the right hands.

So I had one girl come and try him yesterday. She has only just turned 16 but has been riding since 4 years old. Not an issue for me, my last sharer was only 14 when she started. She also said her previous loan horse was a feisty TB type. Would rear, bolt, buck, bite, refuse to be caught... she said she could handle all of this no problem and had her for 7 months, but she wanted something bigger who she could take to shows etc. Perfect, I thought, Tom is no where near that bad - great to ride, just a bit sharp at times, only slight quirkiness on the ground so this girl should be able to handle him.

She seemed really nice, a genuinely sweet girl who I'm sure would have loved him. But when it came to riding... oh dear, she didn't last 5 mins and fell off when he set off at canter (was very similar to the video that was posted on here yesterday, with the girl coming off the coloured horse that bolted!!). As he is quite unbalanced still, he does almost launch into canter for the first stride or 2, which is bouncy but nothing a rider of her 'ability' wouldn't be able to cope with.

I rode him for about 15-20 mins before hand, all the while explaining the dos and don'ts with him, he was relaxed and was being very good. I got off, and got her up. She looked quite nervous, so I withheld my whip and got her to walk about to get a feel of him. She started to relax and looked more comfortable, horse was being great so off she went.

He went into canter... she become unseated and lost a stirrup and panicked. Que him continue to canter round (quite nicely, mind!!), reins slipping through the girls fingers, him then cutting corners, me shouting 'Sit up!! Gather the reins back!!' etc, to no avail until she completely lost it and exited via the side door. He just stopped and stood there, looking at me as if to say 'where'd she go??' She was thankfully fine, unhurt just a bit shaken. She apologised and said his transition to canter took her off guard and panicked. Me, being far too soft, just smiled and said it was ok, but we'll leave it there, all the while thinking how can it take you off guard when you've watched me do it and I explained what he does?

I still don't understand what possesses people into thinking they are above and beyond the ability they actually are. Especially when they are out of riding schools and have been loaning for a while. I don't know if she lied about her previous experience or it was just embellished, but didn't she think how dangerous it could be? This is a horse I have openly admitted can be difficult and needs a confident handler and rider. NOT suitable for novices!!

Sorry for extra long post, just sooooo frustrating and needed to vent!! I felt sorry for her but at the same time so angry. I have another girl coming tomorrow on recommendation of a fellow livery, so hopefully will be better suited.

Any tips on where to find good, competent sharers??
 
Its a bit like a job interview - people are going to be nervous. I dont doubt that you are right in that she wasnt suitable but maybe she isnt is as bad as that normally

Cut the kid some slack. We have all ended up in situations where we have been out of our depth
 
A naughty horse (which sounds like the girl has ridden) is VERY different from a sharp and sensitive horse. Many people spend years riding 'naughty' and understandably think they're not a novice. Until they get on something sharp and sensitive. You can't just be firm and forceful with them and until you've ridden horses like that, you've no idea what 'sharp' it truely means

I know plenty of riders who'd have ended up the same and I wouldn't class them as novice. You'll just have to weed them out better.

Plus the fact the rider the rider's previous horse was a PITA. I'd want to know how long it took for her to fix him, not that she was able to cope with the behaviour! A badly behaved horse is an indication of the riders failure, not their ability!
 
I don't like to generalise but a couple of my friends had people come and try to share their horses. They were all pretty much like this. Ok riders but not really up to coping with a sharp horse. I don't know if that is the norm for sharers or whether we were all unlucky.

At least no damage was done so onwards and upwards :)
 
Its all relative, if I may use a car analogy - its like someone who's being driving a Fiesta for 3 years. They remember when they started they used to let the car cut out, grind the gears etc. Now they drive competently, smoothly and safely, can do hill starts and parallel parking and they think "I'm a good driver". Which they are, when they're in their own car.

So then they decide it time to get a new car. Off they go to test drive a BMW explaining to the seller that they're a competent driver etc. Get into the driving seat, key in the ignition, put in gear about to set off, what happens? The car stalls. I won't go through the whole scenario but you can imagine it yourself, all gear changes are rough, can't find reverse, brake and the car stops dead, try indicating but keep hitting the wipers... EVEN THOUGH the seller said twice "indicators on the left, wipers on the right".

At the end of the test driver the seller is livid and the buyer is mortified.

Does it mean the person can't drive or over estimated their abilities? No it just means that they don't have the experience to drive every car competently. I bet if you gave them a week in the BMW they'd be fine. Unlike a mechanic who can get into any vehicle and drive it well.

I'm not for a second suggesting that you give your horse away for a week mearly trying to explain that there are riders who don't even realise that there are horses out there who could bounce them right out of the saddle with a single trot stride! Its a lack of overall experience riding different horses. Ignorance is bliss!
 
I rode quite a number of naughty horses, and brought on quite a number of young horses when I was a teen - however, I absolutely wasn't prepared for sharp and sensitive as stated above. I'd never had a 'sensitive' chap before I got mine, and although he was never horrified by anything I did (I have always tried to be a quiet rider anyway) I wasn't prepared for the fact that he could pick up EVERYTHING I was feeling.

I do feel sorry for this girl, because she may not have been prepared for it either - however, exiting at a steady canter due to stirrup loss seems to indicate a real, actual novice.

Novice is a tricky term though - I've been horse shopping lately, and due to my loss of confidence, I've immediately dismissed anything that says 'can be sharp/forward going/off the leg/sensitive/not novice ride' and my best friend has got quite cross with me, because she says (rightly) that 'not a novice ride' can mean anything from 'I don't want him to go to a numpty cos I love him' to 'he's crazy - you really ought to have a bum made of superglue if you want to try it'. Very difficult to tell from an ad!
 
Bantry said:
Its all relative, if I may use a car analogy - its like someone who's being driving a Fiesta for 3 years. They remember when they started they used to let the car cut out, grind the gears etc. Now they drive competently, smoothly and safely, can do hill starts and parallel parking and they think "I'm a good driver". Which they are, when they're in their own car.

So then they decide it time to get a new car. Off they go to test drive a BMW explaining to the seller that they're a competent driver etc. Get into the driving seat, key in the ignition, put in gear about to set off, what happens? The car stalls. I won't go through the whole scenario but you can imagine it yourself, all gear changes are rough, can't find reverse, brake and the car stops dead, try indicating but keep hitting the wipers... EVEN THOUGH the seller said twice "indicators on the left, wipers on the right".

At the end of the test driver the seller is livid and the buyer is mortified.

Does it mean the person can't drive or over estimated their abilities? No it just means that they don't have the experience to drive every car competently. I bet if you gave them a week in the BMW they'd be fine. Unlike a mechanic who can get into any vehicle and drive it well.

I'm not for a second suggesting that you give your horse away for a week mearly trying to explain that there are riders who don't even realise that there are horses out there who could bounce them right out of the saddle with a single trot stride! Its a lack of overall experience riding different horses. Ignorance is bliss!
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very well put!
 
Bantry said:
Its all relative, if I may use a car analogy - its like someone who's being driving a Fiesta for 3 years. They remember when they started they used to let the car cut out, grind the gears etc. Now they drive competently, smoothly and safely, can do hill starts and parallel parking and they think "I'm a good driver". Which they are, when they're in their own car.

So then they decide it time to get a new car. Off they go to test drive a BMW explaining to the seller that they're a competent driver etc. Get into the driving seat, key in the ignition, put in gear about to set off, what happens? The car stalls. I won't go through the whole scenario but you can imagine it yourself, all gear changes are rough, can't find reverse, brake and the car stops dead, try indicating but keep hitting the wipers... EVEN THOUGH the seller said twice "indicators on the left, wipers on the right".

At the end of the test driver the seller is livid and the buyer is mortified.

Does it mean the person can't drive or over estimated their abilities? No it just means that they don't have the experience to drive every car competently. I bet if you gave them a week in the BMW they'd be fine. Unlike a mechanic who can get into any vehicle and drive it well.

I'm not for a second suggesting that you give your horse away for a week mearly trying to explain that there are riders who don't even realise that there are horses out there who could bounce them right out of the saddle with a single trot stride! Its a lack of overall experience riding different horses. Ignorance is bliss!
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^^ This. When trying horses I took an experienced instructor with me and she often said when I was riding it looked like I was driving a new car that I hadn't quite sussed out how to work. This and combined with the fact I had an audience of 12 people watching me try horses - no pressure!

I appreciate how frustrating it is to find the right person to share your horse. Word of mouth might be best and hopefully you will find the right person for your horse.
 
I would consider myself a pretty good rider. It can be a shock to the system sometimes to realise that perhaps you're not quite the jockey you thought you were though when trying out new horses - as I found out when I was last horse hunting.

Doesn't mean that I over estimate my riding ability. After all if your riding everything from youngsters through to eventers and hunters, why wouldn't you think you can ride just about anything.

I can't.

So don't be too hard on the girl.
 
When I took on my loan horse he cantered round with me and didn't want to stop! I got on well with the owner and he wanted me to take him on so gave me a few lessons to teach me how to ride 'his horse'. That was 6 months ago and the loan is going brilliantly. If he hadn't been so patient he wouldn't have found somone so nice to loan his horse :)
 
I feel sorry for the girl too, suspect she wasn't expecting quite the launch the horse had, despite being told before hand sometimes its just more on board than it looks while you are watching the owner ride when they are quite used to the horse :)

I had a girl on one of my horses once, she was so much a better rider than I will ever aspire to be, and my horse made her look a complete novice, the horse even lay down. Now I know this girl can ride extremely well, but if I hadn't known her I'd have thought she was a new rider :)
 
Not entirely on topic but a slight muse, when people put novice ride it can mean a range of things but I had a friend once years ago who wanted to sell a lovely little 15.2 cob x. She advertised him as a confidence giver as everyone one of her novice/nervous friends had ridden him loved him and a couple even hunted him. She answered all the phone calls assuring everyone how bomb proof he was and let 'novices' come and see him. Having her horses at home and w
 
(Sorry phone!!) working with them it had been a long time since she had seen a really novicey person ride. Every person who came to try her little horse just couldn't find the buttons or found him too much even though she had thought he was the easiest sweetest horse around. Needless to say she needed to change her advert then he sold very quickly. But it can work both ways sellers can misjudge what their selling the same as buyers can misjudge what they think they want to buy. sorry a bit off topic but this made me think about that :)
 
Capriole said:
I feel sorry for the girl too, suspect she wasn't expecting quite the launch the horse had, despite being told before hand sometimes its just more on board than it looks while you are watching the owner ride when they are quite used to the horse :)

I had a girl on one of my horses once, she was so much a better rider than I will ever aspire to be, and my horse made her look a complete novice, the horse even lay down. Now I know this girl can ride extremely well, but if I hadn't known her I'd have thought she was a new rider :)
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Exactly this . . . Kali can make competent riders (who compete BE 100) look like rank beginners simply because he doesn't trust new riders and doesn't give up his "secrets" until he trusts the person on top.

P
 
I've noticed that horses have preferences for riders, just to complicate matters.

Horses that I know well, can be incredibly obliging for riders they click with and they don't always choose the more accomplished jockeys. They seem to have a different set of criteria from us, so sometimes if the potential loaner has the right attitude, the rest can be worked on.

I'm glad the girl in the OP's post is ok and the horse wasn't hurt. Finding the right sharer is difficult, but when you have one, they're golden.
I use a horsewalker these days instead. Far less complicated, only downside is, it can't groom.
 
SadKen said:
I rode quite a number of naughty horses, and brought on quite a number of young horses when I was a teen - however, I absolutely wasn't prepared for sharp and sensitive as stated above. I'd never had a 'sensitive' chap before I got mine, and although he was never horrified by anything I did (I have always tried to be a quiet rider anyway) I wasn't prepared for the fact that he could pick up EVERYTHING I was feeling.

I do feel sorry for this girl, because she may not have been prepared for it either - however, exiting at a steady canter due to stirrup loss seems to indicate a real, actual novice.

Novice is a tricky term though - I've been horse shopping lately, and due to my loss of confidence, I've immediately dismissed anything that says 'can be sharp/forward going/off the leg/sensitive/not novice ride' and my best friend has got quite cross with me, because she says (rightly) that 'not a novice ride' can mean anything from 'I don't want him to go to a numpty cos I love him' to 'he's crazy - you really ought to have a bum made of superglue if you want to try it'. Very difficult to tell from an ad!
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SadKen - I was exactly the same when looking for my new horse, as 4 years without a horse and a nasty accident before that had left me with confidence of glass. It was quite a shock when I discovered that the horse i'd been exercising for a friend quite happily was being advertised as "definitely not a novice ride!". I wish people who state "no novices" would give a brief reason why as it would save so much time and prevent buyers like us from automatically ruling out what could otherwise be a very nice horse.
 
I feel for you and the girl. While I feel bad for her, she perhaps should have played down her abilities. I feel bad for you because you trusted her to live up to what she said.
When I ride other horses, I always say what I do with Ned, but that Im not as confident on others, so don't expect anything brilliant!
 
I did feel sorry for her when it all happened. It's not that he wouldn't have stopped - she just lost control and he continued to canter round at his leisure! Had she been able to regain her seat or even get the contact back I'm sure it would have been a different outcome. There's no doubt that I would still have known she was unsuitable but it may have been less painful for her.

It's funny about the car analogy - I was actually saying the same thing to her mum afterwards! Not exactly as it was put here, but I did say about her not being used to a 'bigger engine'.

Just chalking this one up as experience.
 
I did the 'wall of death' career around an arena a couple of years ago when trying a new horse. Absolutely terrifying.

Nice horse, we just got in a bit of a muddle together about the canter strike off! I tend to downplay my abilities but have ridden all my life and competed creditably at Medium level, and the horse was a nice 5 yo ID, bit green but willing. I managed to stay in the saddle, with the seller calling 'relax!!' to me! Good advice in theory but tricky for me to implement at the time as we were forever cornering at speed! Not quite sure why but eventually he pulled up with me still on board.

I agree 100% that we amateurs, who may be perfectly competent on our own horses, can take take much longer to suss out a new ride than a pro who rides many horses on a regular basis, and we can look very wobbly at the start!

Interestingly, the ID I tried proved to have a number of physical problems that the seller genuinely hadn't suspected. After my exciting ride, the physio checked him out and recommended the vet saw him. Can't remember the exact diagnosis, but he had arthritis in multiple joints and that was the end of his ridden career despite him being so young.
 
I am a pretty ropy rider style wise and look pretty awful even on my own horses but I have ridden hundreds and hundreds of different horses so I can usually at least sit on most people's.

I think being competent and even being good is different from being able to get on different things. The car analogy is perfect. If you don't ride loads of different horses regularly it is hard to get on a new horse for sure. I am not as good as I used to be at it because I don't do it as much as I used to.

As I say, no real harm done and that is the main thing :)
 
I dislike the term 'not a novice ride' in adverts - as others have said it's such a broad term. It's difficult because when trying to find a sharer you have to assess their suitability based on a very short, high pressure riding situation. When I was looking for a loan horse I tried to be as open and honest about my (lack of) abilities as possible, as I didn't want to be seen as a time waster. Much better to undersell than oversell yourself in my opinion! Good luck with the next one OP!
 
I've actually had it the other way round.
Advertised that I was looking for a share, explained that I was novice who was confident in walk, trot and canter but only started recently learning to jump so was looking for an older plod "been there done that" type. I had a few people contact me with their horses who they insisted were novice rides.

It was clear after further discussion or going to see them, that they weren't.

That being said, one girl contacted me regarding her 7yo tb. I again went through my abilities and said I wasn't sure if that would be a good fit for me, but she told me her abilities and that basically she wasn't a great rider herself. I went to see him, saw her ride - all good. Soon as i got on he bucked me off within seconds. Got on again and he went to do the same thing - he basically just didn't want me on and wanted to follow him Mum. I felt like a complete beginner and she was shocked herself that he behaved in such a way.

To quote Harry Potter - "the wand chooses the wizard".

Still, it's great to see that you want the best for your horse!
 
I had something that happened the other way round too which quite surprised me. My friend had a highly strung, super sensitive TB who she rode really beautifully. When her horse was off sick I asked her if she wanted to ride out with me on an old bombproof Fell we had. Soon after we set off he took the mickey out of her delicate touch, pulled into the side of the road, dragged her leg through the hawthorn and ended up almost getting her knocked off by the gatepost. I was a bit embarrassed by his behaviour but it appeared that although she could get sensitive blood horses to perform well she wasn't used to dealing with wily old ponies with a bit of a mind of their own that needed a bit of bossing.
 
It's funny because in my teens I would have got on anything and pretty much did(large yard, YO was instructor and took in a few loony horses to try and sort out) not to mention I had my own who was a youngster at the time and had a bad start to his ridden life - cue napping, bucking and peeing off with you to get out of work. So I'd say I became fairly acustomed to various shapes and sizes of horses with different temperaments.

Anyway fast forward a few years later, my boy is more than sorted and I pretty much enjoy happy hacking and a bit of dressage, nothing too exuberant! My friend has a girl moving from her saint of a pony onto something more capable and asked me to come and try it out first as they didn't want anything too speedy.

Well. After a few years of sitting on nothing else but my own, this thing was rather different! Nice ride but there was nothing between my legs, and the canter stride could've taken you too the moon. My subtle aids of slowing down were not working particularly well and I had to use them a bit stronger. My centre of balance was dire and I felt like I hadn't ridden in years. I guess what I'm saying is every horse is and will feel different. If I got on one of my friend's horses at the yard I'd hope I wouldn't fall off but I'd probably look like I couldn't ride one side of it purely because its not what I'm used to. The difference in width of the horse and its stride can totally through you off kilter.
 
You just need someone who clicks with him. Most people who aren't on and off all types of horses regularly have a "type" that they can work with and many types that they either can't work with at all or they only can to a point. Just be patient, and since your horse sounds genuine and behaves typically of himself at the trials, someone will show up with a feel for him soon.

I don't think you can tell how people ride from a label like "novice", "advanced", etc. Just describe the horse honestly, weed out and put off real numpties who give themselves away asking weird questions on the phone, then let people take their time trying him out. Plus its not like you're selling, if it doesn't work out, I know its a bit harsh, but you can bin them off any time and try again.
 
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holeymoley said:
If I got on one of my friend's horses at the yard I'd hope I wouldn't fall off but I'd probably look like I couldn't ride one side of it purely because its not what I'm used to. The difference in width of the horse and its stride can totally through you off kilter.
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Ha, me and a friend were riding our own loans last night in the school when at the end we decided to swap for 5 mins out of curiosity. We both quickly wanted to swap back. She couldn't get my horse to trot and I was struggling to keep her horse FROM trotting! We'd both class ourselves as being at the same level with regards to riding ability.

It's just what you get use to!
 
Embo said:
Why why why do people do it!?

My gelding is up for loan as, unfortunately, my previous sharer got a new job and no longer has the time. So annoying because she was a lovely girl and handled Tom well. Wasn't the best rider, but she was kind and had lovely soft hands, so she was perfect for hacking him out and doing basic school work to keep him ticking over twice a week.

I've put quite a long and honest advert up - warts and all - to discourage the novices and hopefully attract someone with at least a bit of horse-sense. The advert stated (more than once!!) 'absolutely NO novices'. Not surprisingly, the ad has been up for a week and a half and I've only had 2 responses. Not bothered by this, finding the right person takes time and not many people looking to share )))

Uum..forum doing the auto quote errr again !

It's interesting reading the comments about how horses respond to different riders. I took on a share a few months ago. When I read the advert I read it as "calm confident rider wanted" which I could hold my hand up to. So I sent ff a message saying what I've been doing and how long I'd been riding. So off I trot to test ride said horse- ex racer green and needing to gain confidence out on hacks and on the road. I tried him in the school first then as it was ok off we went for a short hack. Horse was an absolute angel. Even for bus and bikes which owner said he'd spooked at before. So share on as horse accepted me. Re read the advert later and also noticed it said " experienced " which I am not having just been riding two years. Some weeks later I was at yard when new trainer tried him out and he behaved like a totally different animal, refusing to go forward and basically arguing with her. He was I think expressing his opinion on this new type of riding :) I'm pretty sure that he accepted me as a rider on our first outing despit my feeling so far out of my comfort zone on him.
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Tiddlypom said:
I did the 'wall of death' career around an arena a couple of years ago when trying a new horse. Absolutely terrifying.

Nice horse, we just got in a bit of a muddle together about the canter strike off! I tend to downplay my abilities but have ridden all my life and competed creditably at Medium level, and the horse was a nice 5 yo ID, bit green but willing. I managed to stay in the saddle, with the seller calling 'relax!!' to me! Good advice in theory but tricky for me to implement at the time as we were forever cornering at speed! Not quite sure why but eventually he pulled up with me still on board.

I agree 100% that we amateurs, who may be perfectly competent on our own horses, can take take much longer to suss out a new ride than a pro who rides many horses on a regular basis, and we can look very wobbly at the start!

Interestingly, the ID I tried proved to have a number of physical problems that the seller genuinely hadn't suspected. After my exciting ride, the physio checked him out and recommended the vet saw him. Can't remember the exact diagnosis, but he had arthritis in multiple joints and that was the end of his ridden career despite him being so young.
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It's funny you say this as I had a similar experience whilst viewing a horse except it full-on bolted with me in a XC field. Up until that day my idea of a horse bolting was one that ran off but could eventually be slowed but this horse set off in a blind panic and nothing I did stopped it (sadly back then I had no clue about the one rein stop!) I eventually decided to bail after it broncked loosing me a stirrup in the process. At the time the owner and YO made me feel like an absolute idiot, telling me how said horse regularly taught novices to ride and jump and that they'd never seen anyone struggle to control it cue me feeling incredibly useless. It was only later I heard through the grapevine that the vet had been out to see the horse and diagnosed all manner of issues (including KS) and recommended the horse be pts. I felt terribly sad for the owner but relieved I wasn't the utterly hopeless rider I felt I was when I left their yard that day. That said I'm still fairly wobbly when trying new horses now and regularly assume I must look like a complete numpty.
 
When my current sharer came to try my boy, she couldn't get him to trot at all in the school, she went straight from walk to canter (unintentionally!) and he happily spent the next 3 minutes cantering round before coming back to walk and then doing it all over again. It was the fact that she was laughing at him and saying how comfortable his canter was rather than being worried by it that made me think she'd be alright.

He can be a bit ignorant in the school and canter's far easier for him than trot, so I wasn't surprised. He's much better behaved out hacking and that's what I wanted her to do anyway! 4 months in they're doing fine and she can even get a decent trot out of him in the school ;)

That first session doesn't have to be perfect as long as it's not terrible.
 
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