Threatening to bite/kick; grouchiness on yard and in arena

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flintfootfilly

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Bit of a long shot, but I've had the vet out to look at a rising 4 year old whose behaviour is getting dangerous. She threatens to bite or kick as you walk through her section of yard, and if you lunge or circle her either online or at liberty, she goes all snakey headed, ears back, turning and threatening, or kicks up into the circle, or sometimes kicks up several times behind her and crossfires in canter. Interestingly, at liberty she chooses to stay on the circle rather than head off to the other end of the arena for a quiet time.

Vet is at a bit of a loss other than to say it's "attitude" and that the horse needs to be out in a field burning off energy. I don't see a horse trying to burn off excess energy. I see a horse who is shouting out that it's uncomfortable to move. Her "airs above the ground" and general way of going in all this look uncomfortable (head carriage very unsteady, sometimes way up with dipped back, other times way too low).

She is yarded with companions throughout winter, and has daily turnout in the arena with ponies. I see the same snakey headed behaviour when she's with her buddies.

I'm happy to work with a horse with attitude and encourage them to be a "good citizen", but we're not making progress. If anything, she's shouting even louder and I need to listen.

She can't carry on like this, so I need to work out how to investigate further. Have opted to scope her for ulcers tomorrow, although she is technically low risk as doesn't do travelling, competing, starchy foods etc.

If that shows nothing, I'll try her on a 2 week bute trial, but to be honest I don't hold out much hope of that showing anything.

Just wondered if any of you have other possible causes to add to the melting pot please?

Thanks

Sarah
 
How long have you had her and what's her history.

We had a similar horse on a yard I was at. Nothing wrong with her, and no pain. She was just a nasty cow.
 
Thanks for your reply, AmyMay.

She's been with me a year. She was underweight and at least a little neglected when I bought her. Her feet had never been trimmed, so she had hoof walls about twice the length they should have been.

Her breeders were decent people who had too little time for her, so she had not been handled much, but their approach was very much slowly and carefully building confidence (eg for trailer loading), rather than get 'em in however you could!

I keep her at home, so I am the only person dealing with her on a day to day basis.

We did have a 15 minute stand-off in the stable when I went to see her before bringing her home. I'd taken her halter off while I had some lunch. Then popped back in her stable to put the halter back on and she turned her back end to me. I was standing on her "favourite" wall (the one with the door and the haynet) so I just bided my time and waited for the right moment for her to realise she wanted to be where I was, and to allow me to slip the halter back on. But she definitely had "attitude" even then.

In many respects, she is very sweet and lovely, and wants to be with me and doing stuff, but Jeckyll and Hyde switch places within a split second.

I've had two horses previously who were described as having attitude. It took Sue Dyson at Animal Health Trust to unravel what was going on and diagnose them. They both had good reason to have attitude. So I'm afraid I very much think that "attitude" isn't a reason - it's the expression of the cause, and I have to try and find out what the real cause is.

Sarah
 
I agree with you OP - my current horse was going for meat for 'attitude'. She is a very sweet mare who had been misdiagnosed for her whole life.

Turns out she has EPSM which can make them miserable pretty much 24/7.

But I've seen hind gut issues and/or ulcers have a similar impact and likewise a shortage of magnesium.

Worth investigating -I am glad your mare has you.
 
Thanks for the replies. More food for thought.

I think we're ok on magnesium here. I did try supplementing it a year or two back and noticed no difference of any kind in any of the ponies (this was before this particular mare arrived here). Since then, I've had a forage analysis done which shows a good level of magnesium so I think probably I can rule that one out.

Interesting what you say about the hindgut issues, though, Lucy. Not least because one of my boys had acute colitis about 10 days ago and we still dont' know the cause.

What kind of hindgut issues are you aware of with this kind of behaviour? Just wondering if there may be any commonality here?

Hadn't thought of EPSM for this pony. Must read up on that again, though. I did have the DNA test done for EPSM on a couple of other ponies, who came back negative for that type of EPSM. But I didn't feel there was enough reason to warrant a biopsy at that stage. One of those ponies turned out to be the one who has gone on to develop colitis.

Think I'll have her bloodtested tomorrow anyway, just in case that sheds any light on what's going on. Somehow, the more people tell me it's just "behavioural" or "attitude", the more responsibility I feel to find out what's causing the behaviour. Especially as that kind of behaviour doesn't make for a long and happy life.

Sarah
 
Sugar turns my mare evil! I have cut as much as possible out of her diet (low sugar feed and soaked hay) and she's soo much nicer now!
 
Sarah

The hind gut can be very sensitive - its why some give TBs the rep for bad feet. They don't - some of the most crackingly good feet I do are TBs - but they can have sensitive hind guts and when these are got right the feet follow.

So things I have found which can upset hind guts - bear in mind this is in no way scientific, just based on working on lots of horses over the years

Too much Sugar (Anything with a combined sugar/starch content of over about 8-10%)
Too much Starch
Alfalfa
Legumes in general
Straw
Copra
Rye grass - or any grass which is too lush
Rye hay or any hay which is a bit sugary
Soaked hay which has not been processed properly
Haylage of any kind - even the low sugar stuff
Wormers
Antibiotics
Mould inhibitors
Stress - esp this
Some plants eaten in excess for example willow

This is on top of the known toxic plants
 
She is indeed a lucky horse to have a listening owner. :)
I second the hind gut/ulcer possibilities and of course if she is more sensitive to sugars.

Fingers crossed for you teasing out where her problems are.
 
LucyPriory said:
Sarah

The hind gut can be very sensitive - its why some give TBs the rep for bad feet. They don't - some of the most crackingly good feet I do are TBs - but they can have sensitive hind guts and when these are got right the feet follow.

So things I have found which can upset hind guts - bear in mind this is in no way scientific, just based on working on lots of horses over the years

Too much Sugar (Anything with a combined sugar/starch content of over about 8-10%)
Too much Starch
Alfalfa
Legumes in general
Straw
Copra
Rye grass - or any grass which is too lush
Rye hay or any hay which is a bit sugary
Soaked hay which has not been processed properly
Haylage of any kind - even the low sugar stuff
Wormers
Antibiotics
Mould inhibitors
Stress - esp this
Some plants eaten in excess for example willow

This is on top of the known toxic plants
Click to expand...

I not that you are saying these things you list are not scientifically proven to be the cause of upset in the hind gut. However, I would be very interested to know how you have managed to isolate and state that each of these many and varied things have been (in your opinion) responsible for hind gut issues?

Have you reached these conclusions by feeding ONLY the listed items one by one and then noted (how without medical samples or postmodern data Im not sure?) the results in each horse?

Just feeling slightly bewildered that you can issue such a long list of things you feel are responsible for hind gut problems without in any way explaining how you arrive at this conclusion?
 
In many respects, her background and current behaviour sound very similar to my Sec D 2yo...he too is on mag ox...so no shortage there, but with him, I think the onset of winter and given that he is bottom of the pecking order in a small herd with regards to hay feeding, has really seen a degeneration in his behaviour. He is TO 24/7. Last winter he was out by himself having been more or less abandoned and left to go feral with only occasional feeding...he was also then behaving in a way so antisocial that he was considered dangerous and possibly in need of being PTS! so I think this year despite his having settled nicely with me over the summer, developing the rudiments of manners with some groundwork, and now having a regular feeding routine, he is just experiencing situational memories of last winter and behaving accordingly. Also the terrible gales, lashing rain and wind we've had seem to have put him on super-alert and made him extra sharp and spooky. Needless to say his current poor behaviour is being firmly dealt with...
He has also been inadvertently turned away due to a combination of terrible weather and daughter's loan pony needing a lot of work..I didn't intend to do this as I felt this would probably not do him any good, seeing as he has been unhandled previously for so long, and I think I was probably right about this and that he needs regular groundwork sessions again. But I do think he will come back in hand once I get a chance to do more than just feed hay and sort out the pecking order. :rolleyes:
So, don't know if any of that rings a bell for you, but as they sounded quite similar thought it might be relevant.
 
http://www.equinegastriculcers.co.uk/which_horses.html

This website is really helpful.

My horse has been pretty awful lately, biting and kicking whilst I groom him, generally pretty narky. Ridden work has been explosive at times. He's 6 and had most of this year off with a back injury. Having done some research I spoke with my vet the other day and he agrees that he may have Gastric Ulcers. We are getting him scoped. This will tell us definitively yes or no that he has them. This is interlay treatable with gastroguard and will cure them, then with proper management they may not come back. The more I've looking into this the more I've realised how likely a course of behavioural problem this is. The figures on the website link are staggering. Honestly take a look for yourselves the information is there.

I have another thread up on here and will update this once we have had the scope.

Personally I don't think you can get a bad horse, you can get a dominate one or a stressy one but bad isn't something they can be. They don't sit in their stables plotting. I think she really is trying to tell you something isn't right.

Best of luck :)
 
grumpyoldmare said:
I not that you are saying these things you list are not scientifically proven to be the cause of upset in the hind gut. However, I would be very interested to know how you have managed to isolate and state that each of these many and varied things have been (in your opinion) responsible for hind gut issues?

Have you reached these conclusions by feeding ONLY the listed items one by one and then noted (how without medical samples or postmodern data Im not sure?) the results in each horse?

Just feeling slightly bewildered that you can issue such a long list of things you feel are responsible for hind gut problems without in any way explaining how you arrive at this conclusion?
Click to expand...


It's actually really easy - partly I am quite old and I've worked with a lot of 'difficult' horses. You learn over time and from many kicks and bites which are likely suspects in the whole upset hind gut scenario. That and several broken bones......

As you know the billions of flora in the hind gut can be quite sensitive, especially to ph and/or dietary changes.

You don't need research data to realise that when a particular horse is fed alfalfa he kicks the cr*p out of you (I have a specific one in mind here) and when he isn't fed alfalfa he doesn't. Especially when the bruises last for weeks.

The scenario usually plots out something like this:

Difficult horse - history taken including diet, exercise, etc. Horse weaned onto 'exclusion diet'. Horse behaviour improves. Suspect item reintroduced. Horse kicks crap out of you. Item removed and horse plays nice again. Important to remember that in a limited number of cases it is things that are missing from the diet or specific metabolic issues such as EPSM that are causing the problems. Experience makes one aware of the symptoms for these.

You don't need a test tube for that. Also remember the items listed fall into discrete groups - those that deliver too much sugar/starch to the hind gut which sets off a chain reaction, those that may have a negative impact on the flora (eg antibiotics) and those which are related to each other (alfalfa and legumes) but we don't quite know why they are a problem, just that for some horses they are. This is where the research would be interesting. Not entirely sure if absolutely necessary because my approach is if it upsets the gut then don't feed it........

So while I support a scientific approach the horses in my care don't have the time to wait for it. They need help now
 
LucyPriory said:
Also remember the items listed fall into discrete groups - those that deliver too much sugar/starch to the hind gut which sets off a chain reaction, those that may have a negative impact on the flora (eg antibiotics) and those which are related to each other (alfalfa and legumes) but we don't quite know why they are a problem, just that for some horses they are. This is where the research would be interesting. Not entirely sure if absolutely necessary because my approach is if it upsets the gut then don't feed it........

So while I support a scientific approach the horses in my care don't have the time to wait for it. They need help now
Click to expand...

Interesting though, studies have shown that feeding Alfalfa helps with ulcers..... http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11008
 
Alfalfa is quite high in calcium, so it helps to buffer the excess acid.

OP, is she getting bullied when she's in with the other horses? Or is she the alpha, so she never relaxes? Might be worth trying her on her own for a week and seeing if that help.

Ovarian cysts might be something else to look into.
 
meandmyself said:
Alfalfa is quite high in calcium, so it helps to buffer the excess acid.

OP, is she getting bullied when she's in with the other horses? Or is she the alpha, so she never relaxes? Might be worth trying her on her own for a week and seeing if that help.

Ovarian cysts might be something else to look into.
Click to expand...

And if the horse is already receiving a diet that is too high in calcium (I have a particular yard in mind here) then alfalfa will make it worse. To the extent that some geldings had problems peeing.

Magnesium and calcium have to be in balance and a shortage of magnesium (whether dietary or inability to absorb) can lead to at least some of the symptoms the OP described.

Also some nutritional advice is dreadful - I have email evidence of an equine nutritionist informing someone that magnesium was largely irrelevant and was used as a pain killer. (they were pushing alfalfa as a feed to a horse that was already receiving too much calcium and had underlying metabolic issues which made alfalfa a problem) as we all know magnesium is far from irrelevant......
 
Mollases and chaff also turn my pony nuts.

Mine is as you describe - but due to skin problems - skin problems which have never been known about other than sweet itch in summer.

I have to say in in the "horses aren't just nasty" camp - opinionated yes but for a reason. My pony is identical to free school too - she finds it hard to balance on the lunge, and also dislikes being dictated too - free schooling is her choice to work!!!!
 
Hi Sarah, first of all congratulations on not being swayed by your vets opinion and for having the courage of your convictions. Sometimes we don't need an expert to tell us what it happening under our own noses, sometimes we know or have a good inkling that something is amiss without being told and just because we cannot find the answers does not mean that we should not keep trying.

Secondly I note that you went directly to your vet for assessment of this mare. Have you considered consulting a physio? A physio would possibly be able to give you insight into whether the mare has any physical issues going on. Obviously an animal does not require to be in work for it to have a physical problem, particuarly as she is young, she could have had an accident in the field or something. She may have impingement somewhere, or a tightening across a muscle or muscle groups. If her feet had never been trimmed before you had her I would suggest that there is every chance that she could have over compensatory issues as a result of the way she has been moving to counteract problems associated with such a condition. Just because the problem has been remedied now, i.e. by you getting her feet attended does not mean that any physical 'way of going' problems have been addressed. I know myself that since having my back injected with steroid for example, the pain has moved up my back because I have been compensating in other ways.

So my first point of call, before the vet, scoping, etc would be a physio.
 
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meandmyself said:
Ovarian cysts might be something else to look into.
Click to expand...

Ovarian cysts are rare in mares - and would need to be pretty big to cause a problem except under saddle. If the behaviour was random, then a large haemorrhagic follicle could be a suspect, although again that's usually the cause of ridden problems.

However, it would be worth getting her ovaries scanned to rule out a Granulosa Theca Cell tumour - particularly if her behaviour is in any way reminiscent of stallion behaviour - which general aggressiveness - and in particular the "snakey headed behaviour when she's with her buddies" may well be! A GTC tumour excretes testosterone and can cause stallion-like behaviour - in advanced cases you will see the mare mounting other mares - and attacking geldings!
 
JanetGeorge said:
However, it would be worth getting her ovaries scanned to rule out a Granulosa Theca Cell tumour - particularly if her behaviour is in any way reminiscent of stallion behaviour - which general aggressiveness - and in particular the "snakey headed behaviour when she's with her buddies" may well be! A GTC tumour excretes testosterone and can cause stallion-like behaviour - in advanced cases you will see the mare mounting other mares - and attacking geldings!
Click to expand...

Carrying on from Janet Georges post here is a link to a post regarding GTC removal which describes the OP's mares' behaviour.

Please do not let what has happened to her mare put you off the op if it transpires your mare does have a GTC. All operations carry risks, but as the OP explains in the post this link refers to, it was a very unusual and somewhat rare complication with a sad outcome in this particular instance. Your vet will advise you.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=503131
 
Scoped her today, and no sign of gastric ulcers. Vet commented on how healthy her stomach looks, compared to so many that they see. So that's one thing ruled out.

Took the opportunity whilst she was under sedation to rectal her to check for anything unusual with guts or ovaries. Palpation revealed nothing untoward.

Also scanned her ovaries, which revealed nothing untoward.

Going to blood test her when vet is out to see another of the ponies after Christmas, on the offchance that shows something.

Will also contact a local osteopath and see if they can shed any light on stuff.

Have heard of an interesting case of extreme behaviour which appears to have been related to strongyles in the gut blood vessels, and there may be a little scope there for worming intramuscularly on the offchance.

Other than that, I've run out of ideas at the moment, so still interested in other thoughts.

Vet thinks she is being "defiant". I explained I don't go along with that idea, and that I need to try to find out what is causing her to behave so extremely but it's not proving straight forward.

Sarah
 
flintfootfilly said:
Other than that, I've run out of ideas at the moment, so still interested in other thoughts.

Vet thinks she is being "defiant". I explained I don't go along with that idea, and that I need to try to find out what is causing her to behave so extremely but it's not proving straight forward.
Click to expand...

How long have you had her - and has she been on the same yard the whole time??

Sometimes, mares can get a bit 'above themselves' when:

1. They've been in the same place for some time and got 'over-confident' with life;
2. They change yards - and decide they are going to set the ground rules;
3. They've been on the same yard with the same routine and something changes;
or
4. Because they feel like it!:rolleyes:

If I had a mare who I'd had some time and who started behaving in an 'odd' manner - and if all investigations came up with nothing - I think I'd send her 'on holidays' to another trainer I trusted but who had a different type of yard to mine (bigger, smaller, whatever!) - and see how she behaved with a change of scenery!

We get a lot of horses in - either mares for covering - or horses for backing or schooling - who (according to their owners) do this - or that. Often, it just doesn't happen here. There are all sorts of possible reasons: in unfamiliar territory, bossy or pushy horses may desist from such behaviour because they're unsure of their surroundings. It may be they have become 'naughty' because the owner - or a regular handler - has inadvertently 'rewarded' bad behaviour. Or there may be something in their home environment (a particular horse, or person, or something) that the horse doesn't like.

IF the mare behaves perfectly nicely in a new environment (or behaves even worse) then you can probably be sure the behaviour IS just bad behaviour - rather than behaviour with a physical cause! Obviously you would need to be sure the yard you sent the mare too would approach her with an open mind - and be firm - but not abusive - if her behaviour isn't 'acceptable'!
 
I haven't read all the posts, but agree with others - if it's not ulcers then try changing the diet to sugar and cereal free. It's easy enough just feed unmollassed chaff and micronized linseed, magnesium and grass nuts and ad lib hay. No apples, polos, maybe a max of 2 small carrots a day, no licks or other treats.

If this diet brings no change then definately a pain trial - I did that and my horse had chronic pain. Horses are not naturally aggressive and a behaviourist told me that 99% of aggressive behaviour is caused either through abuse by man or pain. A friend had to put her mare on Regumate, but her behaviour was not this extreme. I am surprised at your vet's stance - mine was very supportive and agreed that horses just do no behave like this normally. You could go the holistic vet route? I don't know whereabouts you are but I used a great one near Newmarket.
Good luck
 
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Do you know much about her behaviour before you got her? Perhaps, if she was quite dominant then she has learned that acting the way she does gets the what she wants.

I defiantly think it worth ruling everything else out first though. Best of luck :)
 
LucyPriory said:
And if the horse is already receiving a diet that is too high in calcium (I have a particular yard in mind here) then alfalfa will make it worse. To the extent that some geldings had problems peeing.

Magnesium and calcium have to be in balance and a shortage of magnesium (whether dietary or inability to absorb) can lead to at least some of the symptoms the OP described.

Also some nutritional advice is dreadful - I have email evidence of an equine nutritionist informing someone that magnesium was largely irrelevant and was used as a pain killer. (they were pushing alfalfa as a feed to a horse that was already receiving too much calcium and had underlying metabolic issues which made alfalfa a problem) as we all know magnesium is far from irrelevant......
Click to expand...

Really good and interesting reading your posts LucyPriory. I feed calcium via Locust bean or carob and now balance that with a magnesium supplement to try to ensure they are in balance. I agree with your alfalfa summation - I fed that and carob to my WB and it was all too much for him as was Copra the high protein coconut feed, which I would never use again.
Even the glut of acorns affected my horses temperament this season -I assume affecting his hind gut with toxins and protein.

I was told by a holistic vet to feed a month of green clay with a 2 week break in the middle and 6 weeks continuous of chlorella to balance the fauna in the hindgut after ulcer treatment or any hindgut upset. That works well - I used it after the acorns:)
 
Thanks for all your replies. So many questions, so I'll try to answer them in turn:

She has been with me for a year, having come from her breeders where she ran out in a field with other mares and youngsters most of the year, and was just brought into a small sacrifice paddock with a companion over the worst of the winter. Little handling, but what handling she had had was sympathetic and not at all heavyhanded.

I would say she is one of the lowest 2 in the herd hierarchy here (7 ponies in all) and doesn't appear to be vying for a higher place in the hierarchy at the moment.

If I take my time to just stand near her, and gradually ask her if I can stroke her, she can be very soft and lovely, but it's a very fine line between that and ears back and grumpiness.

I love mares, and would have been happy to only have mares as I thought so much of them. I like their sensitivity, and just find them incredible partners when they are onside with what's being asked of them. So I thought it'd be nice to breed a filly of my own. 3 colt foals later, I've given up breeding...............kept them all, and decided that actually geldings are really very nice too, and wouldn't be without them!

Good point about sending her away to another trainer. I guess there are one or two people locally who could at least take a look at her for me, and who I'd trust not to be too heavyhanded. I think I'd consider that as a last ditch option if all else that was left was to put to sleep.

I'm absolutely clear I don't reward bad behaviour. I'm pretty strict about manners and boundaries, so I don't think it is that type of thing, though of course I could be proved wrong.

I keep the gang at home, so it's just me looking after them day to day, although I do have friends visiting and to ride out sometimes. The yard and fields are down my drive past the house, with no footpaths or anything, so no strangers getting access to the ponies at any stage.

OK, going to look on the next post to see what the next questions were....
 
She is yarded 24/7 at the moment with access to the arena for a few hours to burn off any energy with companions. Has been on this routine since early October when the fields became too wet for the gang to be out by night.

She is fed a total ration of 2% body weight dry matter, made up of:
- around one third as a very stalky haylage
- around two thirds as long soaked hay
- 250g Fast Fibre (as a good low digestible energy sloppy feed to help keep fluids up and to pop some vitamin E into as they are not having fresh grass)
- 250g Top Spec original balancer with a handful of Top Spec topchop lite chaff

I don't feed carrots, and haven't been feeding apples recently either.
 
I did ask a holisitic vet for their advice a couple of years back for another horse who was having performance issues. Whilst I found her a lovely person to deal with, and my horse thought she was fabulous (a horse who is usually not keen on vets and can spot them a mile off!), we didn't really make any progress, and that experience has made me clearer that I would like a firm diagnosis on an issue before deciding whether to go down the holistic route or a more conventional route. The previous horse turned out to have 8 different things causing her to be unsound, and really stood no chance of coming back into work so really there was no vet who could help, whatever their approach.

Former behaviour? Well, she definitely had SOME attitude when I first saw her before buying her but she would listen to reason and wasn't overtly aggressive. When I went into the stable with her one time at her breeders place, she turned her bum on me rather than have her halter put on. Small stable, and big bum turned towards me, I decided to just claim her favourite wall (the one with haynet and door/window on) and just stood there waiting for her to turn her head towards me, which only had to be a matter of time. 15 minutes later, she turned towards me, allowed me to pop the headcollar on and we carried on as normal.

So there was some attitude there, but nothing as threatening as now.

Thinking back, I had the dentist out early November, and she had her teeth checked and rasped for the first time. She was a little hesitant about having the speculum on, but was really very good with the whole procedure. So there has been a significant change at some time since then. At the moment, I wouldn't trust her with a dentist/speculum without sedation.

Can't remember if I've said, but I'm going to arrange for a physio/osteo to see her, and also either the vet or my dentist to check teeth again, and to remove her wolf teeth (which we'd noted, and decided to remove the next time the dentist comes on a regular visit so I could arrange to have her sedated for it). Will ring my dentist for a chat too, in case he is aware of any dental stuff that can cause this type of thing. Though she's eating enthusiastically and doesn't seem to be quidding at all.

Thanks again. Really appreciate all the ideas.

Sarah
 
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