Three horses died yesterday at Cheltenham?

I wondered when this thread was going to start! I know for a fact that the Mullins team were devestated at the loss of Scotsirish. I really don't think people outside of racing understand or appreciate that NH horses especially and one's that have been in training and great stalwart's (such as Garde Champetre and Scotsirish who were both lost yesterday) are very much loved and respected in the yard. I know when we lost a horse in the x country race at Punchestown my boss (the horse's trainer) cried the whole 4 hour journey home. It is a risk yes but at the same time it doesn't make it any easier when it happens and I hate the fact that the non racing public think that racing is cruel and that everybody in it are all heartless and only in it for the money!
 
Miss L Toe said:
It is an accident in that it was not done deliberately, I hate people who try to "make a point" out of a tragedy.
I fell over last year, and have been unable to work since, it was an accepted possibility, as I could have stayed in bed that day.
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Check my figures above. In eventing it would be an accident, in racing its an accepted hazard of the sport.
To use your analogy, if it was likely you would die if you got out of bed more than 373 times in your life would you consider it an accident or expected when you did die on the 374 exit from bed.
Calling deaths on the trace track an accident is a nice way to cover up the reality of racing.
 
PaddyMonty said:
Just been doing some digging and have a few figures for you.

There are an average of 700 days racing a year in the uk
There are an averge 400 days eventing per year in the uk
Assuming 8 races per meet and an average 10 horses per race this equates to
56,000 race horse runs per year

Assuming a low figure of 200 horses per day evevening equates to
80,000 runs event horse runs per year.

Deaths in racing on track are around 150 per year (conservative)
Eventing deaths on course is average 2
So thats
1 death per 40,000 runs for eventing
1 death per 373 runs for racing.

Now even if my figures are 20% (racing death figures are hard to come by)out it seriously busts the horses deaths occur in all horse sports argument..
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I don't know the figures but i'm guessing that there were no horse fatalities in the dressage arena last year....so compare that to XC and you get a nasty stat!

Racing is a much riskier sport than XC, just like XC is far riskier than dressage, so, not sure you can compare it on a like for like basis. The horses are racing at speed against other horses.


PaddyMonty said:
Why do you think wetherbys do not publish the facts and figures they have on horse fatalities and breakdowns by course and by trainer and by going. Also the number who break down before ever racing or die in training.
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Maybe they should, but there again stats can be used for all sorts of purposes and made to show what ever you want them too!
 
PaddyMonty said:
Check my figures above. In eventing it would be an accident, in racing its an accepted hazard of the sport.
To use your analogy, if it was likely you would die if you got out of bed more than 373 times in your life would you consider it an accident or expected when you did die on the 374 exit from bed.
Calling deaths on the trace track an accident is a nice way to cover up the reality of racing.
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And what exactly is the reality of racing in your eye's PaddyMonty?
 
Dab said:
I don't know the figures but i'm guessing that there were no horse fatalities in the dressage arena last year....so compare that to XC and you get a nasty stat!

Racing is a much riskier sport than XC, just like XC is far riskier than dressage, so, not sure you can compare it on a like for like basis. The horses are racing at speed against other horses.
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I dont disagree. I simply produced some rough figures to answer a post which was basically saying racing was no more risky for the horse than eventing.

It is up to the individual what level of risk they feel is acceptable in horse sport. For me personally I can accept 1 death per 40,000 runs in eventing but I find 1 death per 373 runs in racing a little hard to justify on any grounds.
 
Paddymonty- i would say your figures as suspect to say the least! Where did you get them from? I would say there are more racehorse runs than eventing runs. Also, in other equestrian sports like eventing horses break down, are taken back to wagon or home and put down later. Basically what I am saying there are a lot of deaths not recorded in eventing, racing is more high profile so you hear about it more.

Watering- I think the good to firm ground caused them to go a shade too fast for some. I do know from experience in P2P that properly watered ground using speacilist equipment rides quite nice, however if for whatever reason they cannot use the proper equipment to water and only water parts of the course it would be far worse. There is nothing worse than patchy/inconsistant ground for horses. And badly watered ground is awful to ride on and quite slippy.
 
Little Squirrel said:
And what exactly is the reality of racing in your eye's PaddyMonty?
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The reality is there is a much higher chance of the horse being killed or breaking down beyond repair than in other horse sports. As I said above, it is up to the individual to decide if the sport justifies the risk, for me with racing it doesn't but thats just my personal point of view.
I will bow out of this one now. Just like the hunting debate, neither side will change its view point which makes discussion pretty pointless.
 
A1fie said:
I think owners and trainers will run a horse who doesn't have a chance of winning but it is more likely to give the horse the experience of a race or for training purposes. I've no doubt that not all owners care about each horse, they do it usually because they like racing and can maybe win some money. Saying that, I think there would be few owners who would like to see their horse hopelessly outclassed and finishing last, not much fun in that.

It's the job of the trainer and the lads and lasses to look after the horse and care for it, the owners just pay the bills!
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I agree with most of this . . . if you're Paul Nichols or Nicky Henderson, I'll bet your owners listen to you and trust you to do right by their horse . . . after all, it's what they pay you for and, I would be willing to bet, most owners who have their horses with the best trainers are experienced owners who know to leave well enough alone. I would think the problem owners would be those (footballers spring to mind) who have money to burn and see racing as another way to spend money and show off (cynical, moi?).

I have no doubt that trainers and stable staff are gutted when they lose a horse . . . it'd be nigh on impossible to take care of a horse every day and not feel anything less than deep distress when that horse is fatally injured.

P
 
Little Squirrel said:
And what exactly is the reality of racing in your eye's PaddyMonty?
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accident

Pronunciation: /ˈaksɪd(ə)nt/
noun

1 an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury

2 an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause

Owners and trainers don't send horses out expecting them to die. If it happens, it is because of an accident. Nothing more, nothing less.

Statistics are BS anyway. Did you get them from Animal Aid by any chance?
Statistically, flying is the safest way to travel. If you are on the one plane in a squillion or whatever that crashes, those statistics will mean eff all as you hit the deck.
 
Paddymonty- Yep I think you are right, both sides of the argument are pretty set in their ways (like the hunting argument), and both have pros/cons and counter-arguments a plenty! NH isn't going to be everyones cup of tea, and no one can force you to like it! :)

Owners- It depends on the owners. I have some people go to great lengths to find their horses homes, one owner keeps all her retired horses on their farm until they die of old age and spoils them completlely! She has never sold a horse.
Some however so them as equitity, and probably dont think of them as animals. :(
 
PaddyMonty said:
I dont disagree. I simply produced some rough figures to answer a post which was basically saying racing was no more risky for the horse than eventing.

It is up to the individual what level of risk they feel is acceptable in horse sport. For me personally I can accept 1 death per 40,000 runs in eventing but I find 1 death per 373 runs in racing a little hard to justify on any grounds.
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Yes indeed, but figures can be used to put what ever spin is felt necessary to justify a particular point! More information is usually required for the reader to make an informed decision, and sometimes more parameters need to be taken into consideration to give the full unbiased story.
 
There are lies, damned lies and thenthere are statistics. I still don't think it is acceptable for there to be a sport in which participants, and the non-voting ones at that, die on a regular basis.
 
rhino said:
Which is why I said make up your own minds :confused: Are you suggesting that all these horses didn't die racing, or as a direct result of racing?
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Not at all. The figures are not the thing I take issue with. It's all the other CR*P they come out with.
The figures are horrible, and will never be acceptable. I just prefer to get my information from places other than there for my own personal reasons.
 
alliersv1 said:
Not at all. The figures are not the thing I take issue with. It's all the other CR*P they come out with.
The figures are horrible, and will never be acceptable. I just prefer to get my information from places other than there for my own personal reasons.
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Where do you get it from then? In my experience the BHA are very reticent to publish any figures.

ETA that is about the best you'll get from them

FatalitiesGraphLarge2011.jpg
 
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rhino said:
Which is why I said make up your own minds :confused: Are you suggesting that all these horses didn't die racing, or as a direct result of racing?
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Sorry i haven't looked at the images, so i'll take it as red that the horses in the images died/sustained the injury whilst Racing, but there could easily be a website of 'research' showing horses with horrific injuries resulting in death sustained during turn-out, or hacking or on a fun-ride, or in the stable, or coming out on anesthetic after surgery. How would we as horse owners re-act to such a site?
 
rhino said:
Where do you get it from then? In my experience the BHA are very reticent to publish any figures.
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There is a "fluffy" place where horse's deaths are reported respectfully and where they are remembered fondly by racing fans, rather than just listed as a name and a cause of death as cold statistics.
There are obviously the odd few who slip through the net, but they are listed eventually.
Some are observed on track or the tv, or Racingpost and others are a result of people "in the know" or by emailing racecourses/trainers etc. http://racehorsememories.moonfruit.com/#/message-board/4513985984
I may be a fluffy bunny, but as someone who likes to watch racing, but does find the bad days very upsetting, it is where I prefer to go.
There is also a FB group which keeps very up to date with this info too.
 
PaddyMonty said:
Just been doing some digging and have a few figures for you.

There are an average of 700 days racing a year in the uk
There are an averge 400 days eventing per year in the uk
Assuming 8 races per meet and an average 10 horses per race this equates to
56,000 race horse runs per year

Assuming a low figure of 200 horses per day eventing equates to
80,000 event horse runs per year.

Deaths in racing on track are around 150 per year (conservative)
Eventing deaths on course is average 2
So thats
1 death per 40,000 runs for eventing
1 death per 373 runs for racing.

Now even if my figures are 20% (racing death figures are hard to come by)out it seriously busts the horses deaths occur in all horse sports argument.

Why do you think wetherbys do not publish the facts and figures they have on horse fatalities and breakdowns by course and by trainer and by going. Also the number who break down before ever racing or die in training.
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Your figures are out in all respects. And fatalities and injuries are recorded by the BHA. Wasn't difficult to find:

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp
 
Dab said:
Sorry i haven't looked at the images, so i'll take it as red that the horses in the images died/sustained the injury whilst Racing, but there could easily be a website of 'research' showing horses with horrific injuries resulting in death sustained during turn-out, or hacking or on a fun-ride, or in the stable, or coming out on anesthetic after surgery. How would we as horse owners re-act to such a site?
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I have no idea as such sites do not exist :confused: apart from an eventing related one which I believe is deeply flawed in its research... People on this thread were looking for figures relating to racing, and I pointed them in the right direction... If you want to do likewise for other horse deaths feel free. And I don't think any direct correlations can be made for animals in surgery, or turned out anyway :confused:

More info direct from the BHA, actually they do seem to be getting more transparent
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp
4 fatalities per 1000 runners for jump racing
 
What a lot of you seem to be missing is that these horses wouldn't exist without jump racing. They are bred, bought, cared for at huge cost with a very small chance of glory and yes a small chance of it all going very wrong. Alot of them wouldn't have a job outside racing. Ending racing would make the horse world a much less exciting place for alot of people and I for one think the risks taken are very much worth it. If you can't cope with seeing accidents then don't watch.
 
bonny said:
What a lot of you seem to be missing is that these horses wouldn't exist without jump racing. They are bred, bought, cared for at huge cost with a very small chance of glory and yes a small chance of it all going very wrong. Alot of them wouldn't have a job outside racing.
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We are fully aware of that ta. :)
 
bonny said:
What a lot of you seem to be missing is that these horses wouldn't exist without jump racing.
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And the fact that a large percentage of equine veterinary research is undertaken as a result of/paid for by the racing industry - if we want better veterinary treatments for our pleasure horses then we have to accept that racing promotes research.
 
dominobrown said:
Paddymonty- i would say your figures as suspect to say the least! Where did you get them from?
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revised figures after more research
racing number of runs in 2010 = 63,000 (source BHA)
Deaths from racing 2010 = 147 (source death watch, each death documented so can be validated)

Therefore 1 death per 429 runs in racing
1 death per 40,000 runs in eventing.

These are just deaths on course (xc or race) off course destruction is most likely to be an even percentage for both groups so racing much higher in numbers.
 
From what I've just seen I wouldn't want to be a racecourse photographer at the last fence in the Queen Mother at Cheltenham either. Hope he's ok :(
 
rhino said:
I have no idea as such sites do not exist :confused: apart from an eventing related one which I believe is deeply flawed in its research... People on this thread were looking for figures relating to racing, and I pointed them in the right direction... If you want to do likewise for other horse deaths feel free. And I don't think any direct correlations can be made for animals in surgery, or turned out anyway :confused:

More info direct from the BHA, actually they do seem to be getting more transparent
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp
4 fatalities per 1000 runners for jump racing
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Sorry i didn't make myself very clear and just wanted to open up the discussion. I know there are no sites related to the injuries that i mentioned. But injuries/fatalities (sustained during turn-out, hacking, fun-rides, after surgey) do happen, and they happen to 'hobby' owners where gaining such information would be extremely difficult if not impossible to gain. I wonder how people would feel if they had to declare an injury or death of their horse and then these figures were made public. If this type of information is required from the Racing Industry should it trickle down to all horse owners?

I totally agree that no direct correlations can be made in any of these cases, whether it is Racing with XC, XC with dressage, dressage with turn-out etc
 
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