Three horses died yesterday at Cheltenham?

[PaddyMonty]

Your figures are out in all respects. And fatalities and injuries are recorded by the BHA. Wasn't difficult to find:

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp

Spotted this after my revised figures whioch do fall in line with BHA.
No matter the absolute accuracy of the figures it is still pretty disgusting death rate per run. especially so when compared to other horse sports.

Essentailly those that support racing are quite happy to accept (or to a blind eye) that for every 500 starters one will die based on best case scenario of the BHA's own figures.

I couldn't support that death rate no matter what the sport or animal involved. Each to their own.

 

[Lord_Horatio_Nelson]

revised figures after more research
racing number of runs in 2010 = 63,000 (source BHA)
Deaths from racing 2010 = 147 (source death watch, each death documented so can be validated)

Therefore 1 death per 429 runs in racing
1 death per 40,000 runs in eventing.

These are just deaths on course (xc or race) off course destruction is most likely to be an even percentage for both groups so racing much higher in numbers.

Where does your 1 death per 40,000 runs in eventing come from? Is this another "pluck from the air" figure?

Not the most accurate of sources (because I can't be that bothered at the moment to google), I found this on Wikipedia.

Safety
Between 1997 and December 2008, at least 37 eventing riders died as a result of injuries incurred while competing in the cross-country phase of eventing at national or international level or at Pony Club. Of these, 18 riders died in the period 2006–2008. These 37 fatal falls have been at all levels of the sport, from domestic one-day events up to regional championships level, and they have occurred in most of the recognized eventing countries around the world, with concentrations in the United Kingdom (14) and the United States (8). At least 25 of these 37 deaths have resulted from a somersaulting (rotational) fall of the horse, with 11 of the 16 deaths in 2007 and 2008 being reported as having resulted from a rotational horse fall. [1]

Information about horse fatalities is difficult to locate, but at least 19 eventing horses, many of them top-level performers, died in 2007 & 2008, most of them in the US. [1]

Oh well, just thank god that there are more human deaths than equine in the sport!

Edited to add: Here's some more info / links so that you can get a more balanced picture (albeit slightly historical)
http://www.e-equestrian.com/archive/index.php/t-26928.html

 

[Dab]

Spotted this after my revised figures whioch do fall in line with BHA.
No matter the absolute accuracy of the figures it is still pretty disgusting death rate per run. especially so when compared to other horse sports.

Essentailly those that support racing are quite happy to accept (or to a blind eye) that for every 500 starters one will die based on best case scenario of the BHA's own figures.

I couldn't support that death rate no matter what the sport or animal involved. Each to their own.

How does this figure compare to the number of equines that are sent to slaughter every year, because owners no longer want them because; they are deemed too old, not suitable, have health issues, can no longer afford to keep them, have been mistreated and are now 'problem horses', over breeding etc....the list goes on...(do we all turn a blind eye to this?) but ultimately the equine pays the price either way, out in the field or racing on the turf.

Food for thought? or is it just the racing industry that are bad?

 

[Lord_Horatio_Nelson]

How does this figure compare to the number of equines that are sent to slaughter every year, because owners no longer want them because; they are deemed too old, not suitable, have health issues, can no longer afford to keep them, have been mistreated and are now 'problem horses', over breeding etc....the list goes on...but ultimately the equine pays the price either way, out in the field or racing on the truf.

Food for thought? or is it just the racing industry that are bad?

Or it could be placed in the hands of one of those so-called Charity groups that I have previously read about on here where they suffer starvation, cruelty etc. Sorry, I can't remember their name but she and her cronies used to post on here.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Where does your 1 death per 40,000 runs in eventing come from? Is this another "pluck from the air" figure?

Not the most accurate of sources (because I can't be that bothered at the moment to google), I found this on Wikipedia.

Oh well, just thank god that there are more human deaths than equine in the sport!

Eventing runs are easy to calculate just take each days that eventing takes place (available on BDWP) and mulitply by 250.
Horse deaths are very rare in eventing, far more rare than rider deaths. Riders choose to participate knowing the risks, horses have little choice.
As usual for someone pro racing you are trying to divert the question.
Please answer Yes or No. Is the death of a horse for every 500 starters acceptable.

 

[Jesstickle]

Eventing runs are easy to calculate just take each days that eventing takes place (available on BDWP) and mulitply by 250.
Horse deaths are very rare in eventing, far more rare than rider deaths. Riders choose to participate knowing the risks, horses have little choice.
As usual for someone pro racing you are trying to divert the question.
Please answer Yes or No. Is the death of a horse for every 500 starters acceptable.

For me, yes. Sorry PM, I hate to disagree with you ( I really do FWIW) but for me that is still a low risk. Did you know that if you conceive after the age of 35 you have a 1 in 400 chance that the child will have Downs Syndrome? (Just an example of things which come in at the same sort of odds so we can get a measure on what that number means) The average age for child birth in the UK (for women) is now nearly 30. In a few years most people will be having children over the age of 35. And I'm sure as **** that is won't be considered an ethical problem.

Why? Because ultimately it is still a low risk.

 

[bonny]

Yes, I think it's acceptable

 

[Orangehorse]

There is always this fuss about Cheltenham.
A) I am sad when a horse dies racing.
B) It happens.

I fancied point to pointing when younger, but decided that if I was going to do it I would buy a horse for it, not use my favourite, because then I could distance myself and not be gutted if he was injured or worse.

To compare eventing and racing is silly. The eventers are going round by themselves, they are not in a bunch going flat out and asked for their greatest effort when getting tired; although falls can occur at any fence (anyone see Ruby fall at the first?).

Racing is about winning and betting. It is business and an entertainment. Racing is the whole life experience in minature. Aniticipation, bravery, grit, dedication, hard work, hope,disappointment, elation, joy, sadness, ups and downs, winning and losing. If a horse falls and dies it is very sad, but he lost. If a racehorse fails it isn't the end of the world, the owners can get another one. But if you look at the joy and excitment for the connections when they win, I expect they would say that the highs are worth experiencing the lows.

I expect I will get roasted for this reply.

 

[bonny]

There is always this fuss about Cheltenham.
A) I am sad when a horse dies racing.
B) It happens.

I fancied point to pointing when younger, but decided that if I was going to do it I would buy a horse for it, not use my favourite, because then I could distance myself and not be gutted if he was injured or worse.

To compare eventing and racing is silly. The eventers are going round by themselves, they are not in a bunch going flat out and asked for their greatest effort when getting tired; although falls can occur at any fence (anyone see Ruby fall at the first?).

Racing is about winning and betting. It is business and an entertainment. Racing is the whole life experience in minature. Aniticipation, bravery, grit, dedication, hard work, hope,disappointment, elation, joy, sadness, ups and downs, winning and losing. If a horse falls and dies it is very sad, but he lost. If a racehorse fails it isn't the end of the world, the owners can get another one. But if you look at the joy and excitment for the connections when they win, I expect they would say that the highs are worth experiencing the lows.

I expect I will get roasted for this reply.

I agree with every word ....

 

[PaddyMonty]

In a few years most people will be having children over the age of 35. And I'm sure as **** that is won't be considered an ethical problem.

Why? Because ultimately it is still a low risk.

But when 1 in 400 of all children born have downs syndrome I have a feeling it will become an issue. Whats the percentage currently of all children born?

 

[A1fie]

Wherever there are horses there will be fatalities. How many showjumpers break down in training? There are very few who make it to the top and stay there. Likewise with dressage - there is a huge percentage of horses who have their brains fried or get arthritis etc from it. We don't know the statistics because there are none.

How many leisure horses die through neglect, bad management or injuries? Again it is impossible to work out. In racing the statistics are easily available. The one good thing about deaths in racing is that they are pretty much instantaneous.

 

[dominobrown]

The problem is the cure in some respects. If a human runner breaks their leg we wouldn't shoot them, yet we do with a horse.
Thanks to racing things like stem cell thearpy for tendons, and numerous other veterinary advances have been made, which benefit all horses. Hopefully in the future we will see further advances to help more horses. It can only really happen is racing, as that is where the money is. For those here who say there are too many deaths, would you spend £5000+ on your horse if it was injured or get it PTS?

 

[PaddyMonty]

How many leisure horses die through neglect, bad management or injuries? Again it is impossible to work out. In racing the statistics are easily available. The one good thing about deaths in racing is that they are pretty much instantaneous.

No those stats are not available for racing, only for horses that died on track in public view and thats is simply because it would be difficult to hide. The figures for breakdowns etc are recorded but not published.

Once again racing attempts to be justified by diverting away from the simple fact.
1 horse dies on track for every 500 starters.
If you support racing then you have to accept that the loss is acceptable as a stand alone figure, not compare it to anything else.

 

[Dab]

Wherever there are horses there will be fatalities. How many showjumpers break down in training? There are very few who make it to the top and stay there. Likewise with dressage - there is a huge percentage of horses who have their brains fried or get arthritis etc from it. We don't know the statistics because there are none.

How many leisure horses die through neglect, bad management or injuries? Again it is impossible to work out. In racing the statistics are easily available. The one good thing about deaths in racing is that they are pretty much instantaneous.

^^^well said totally and utterly agree, and its the point i have been trying to get across^^^

 

[Lord_Horatio_Nelson]

Eventing runs are easy to calculate just take each days that eventing takes place (available on BDWP) and mulitply by 250.
Horse deaths are very rare in eventing, far more rare than rider deaths. Riders choose to participate knowing the risks, horses have little choice.
As usual for someone pro racing you are trying to divert the question.
Please answer Yes or No. Is the death of a horse for every 500 starters acceptable.

I'm sorry I didn't realise there was a question directed at me. I was simply pointing out that your figures were flawed and that you can find more accurate information if you look for it. As you have now asked me the question though, I would say that any equine death is sad but the figure is an acceptable risk. And that is from someone who has had both a much loved jump horse and flat runner die on the racecourse. Racing has got a lot safer in recent years and that is a good thing. Jess makes a very valid point regarding downs syndrome and older pregnancies as a metaphor with similar statistical probability.

I still think your figure of 250 participants at every event is way off the mark, just as you cannot and do not have reported equine injuries/death recorded in that sport as you do in horseracing.

 

[Jesstickle]

But when 1 in 400 of all children born have downs syndrome I have a feeling it will become an issue. Whats the percentage currently of all children born?

well it won't get to 1 in 400 born as you can opt to terminate and I expect people do. So should they not try for a baby after the age of 35? Plenty of people would argue that termination is much more heinous than the death of racehorse on the track...

 

[ponypilotmum]

I haven't read all the replies, only got to the accident / non accident bit.

If you take your car out on a wet day and speed round country bends doing 70mph would your insurance the police class that as an accident? what if your passenger died? Death by dangerous driving / manslaughter?

It stands to reason then that allowing your horse to be raced in less than ideal conditions and it dying is not (technically) an accident. Stupidity, yes, accident - no.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Wherever there are horses there will be fatalities. How many showjumpers break down in training? There are very few who make it to the top and stay there. Likewise with dressage - there is a huge percentage of horses who have their brains fried or get arthritis etc from it. We don't know the statistics because there are none.

Ask the same question about racehorses. There are figures but you wont find them published.

 

[Dab]

No those stats are not available for racing, only for horses that died on track in public view and thats is simply because it would be difficult to hide. The figures for breakdowns etc are recorded but not published.

Once again racing attempts to be justified by diverting away from the simple fact.
1 horse dies on track for every 500 starters.
If you support racing then you have to accept that the loss is acceptable as a stand alone figure, not compare it to anything else.

Certainly not trying to justify or divert away from the facts just trying to open eyes to the fact that horses die and are slaughtered for all sorts of reasons and in very large numbers outside of the racing industry. Just wonder how people can point the finger at the racing industry yet turn a blind eye to the reasons why many 'hobby horses' go for slaughter in the equine industry as a whole.

 

[dominobrown]

We can sit here and say the horse shouldn't of run, but the be all and end all is we don't know the horse. Have you ever sat on it? Taken it for a spin on the gallops? Unless you know the horse it is difficult to say.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I'm sorry I didn't realise there was a question directed at me. I was simply pointing out that your figures were flawed and that you can find more accurate information if you look for it. As you have now asked me the question though, I would say that any equine death is sad but the figure is an acceptable risk. And that is from someone who has had both a much loved jump horse and flat runner die on the racecourse. Racing has got a lot safer in recent years and that is a good thing. Jess makes a very valid point regarding downs syndrome and older pregnancies as a metaphor with similar statistical probability.

I still think your figure of 250 participants at every event is way off the mark,

Please feel free to check the figures. Just go to www.bdwp.co.uk and count the number of sections run per day and the number of starters in each section. You are correct in that my figures are wrong at 250 per day. 270 - 280 would be more realistic.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Certainly not trying to justify or divert away from the facts just trying to open eyes to the fact that horses die and are slaughtered for all sorts of reasons and in very large numbers outside of the racing industry. Just wonder how people can point the finger at the racing industry yet turn a blind eye to the reasons why many 'hobby horses' go for sluaghter in the equine industry as a whole.

I do not condone horse mistreatment, slaughter or any of the other reasons for horse death. My point is that in supporting racing the person is condoning 1 death in every 500 starters on track. That does not include all the race horses that break down, are destroyed later, destroyed before they ever get to a track etc. If someone has to justify a fact by stating there are worse things than that then I feel they have completely missed the point.
As I said ( and should have kept to it) little point in this discussion. Those that support racing do find the death rate on track exceptable (or they wouldn't support it). Others dont and never the two shall meet in agreement.

 

[Lord_Horatio_Nelson]

Please feel free to check the figures. Just go to www.bdwp.co.uk and count the number of sections run per day and the number of starters in each section. You are correct in that my figures are wrong at 250 per day. 270 - 280 would be more realistic.

Well, just picked a random one and the highest numbered entry (in all sections) was 149 and there were occasional numbers missing...Like I said plucking out of the air...

I guess also a number of those that enter don't get as far as the x-country stage as they are eliminated or withdrawn so only do the ballet part

 

[ivandenisovich10]

I'm all for a heated debate but if those three horses died at a tuesday afternoon meeting at plumpton or catterick for example it wouldn't make the news oe even the papers so no body in the jo public would hear about it. Its very unfortunate these things happen atall let alone at highly publisised meetings which means more media coverage.

 

[Dab]

If someone has to justify a fact by stating there are worse things than that then I feel they have completely missed the point.
As I said ( and should have kept to it) little point in this discussion. Those that support racing do find the death rate on track exceptable (or they wouldn't support it). Others dont and never the two shall meet in agreement.

Sorry you feel that there is little point to the discussion, I personally find open debate where other points of view are considered is healthy.
But, no justification was made in my posts to the fact that Racehorses die on the track, that is an undisputable fact. I certainly haven’t missed the point that Racehorses die on the track on a regular basis.
But how can somebody say that they can’t support a sport with this death rate, but don’t want to discuss or are blinkered to the bigger equine welfare issues. Racing welfare issues are surely small fry when you consider that 80,000 equines are transported needless across Europe every year for slaughter. Many of these horses come from the UK, many are healthy, many don’t deserve to be in that situation.
Bash racing all you want but please do take some time to consider the bigger equine picture, and save some of your passion and compassion for those poor horses that have been resigned to the scrap heap through no fault of their own and end up having to travel for hours and hours in horrific conditions with no rest, water, medical treatment to slaughter-houses in Europe.

 

[Maesfen]

Very well said Dab.

Don't forget the mindless cruelty that goes on in this country too from feed induced lamminitis and pure neglect to name but a few but because it is so widespread (although it happens daily) there's no uproar about that.

Give racing a break, it's doing its best.

 

[Dab]

Very well said Dab.

Don't forget the mindless cruelty that goes on in this country too from feed induced lamminitis and pure neglect to name but a few but because it is so widespread (although it happens daily) there's no uproar about that.

Give racing a break, it's doing its best.

Thank yo very much, i'm just glad that somebody got the point i was trying poorly to make!

 

[Phoebe]

I'm all for a heated debate but if those three horses died at a tuesday afternoon meeting at plumpton or catterick for example it wouldn't make the news oe even the papers so no body in the jo public would hear about it. Its very unfortunate these things happen atall let alone at highly publisised meetings which means more media coverage.

I think they might actually... am trying to remember the last race where there were several casualties on one day and it did make the news. I think 4 died, possibly 3 in one race... I will try to find it.

 

[Phoebe]

I think that there will always be deaths in racing. Somehow it always seems more upsetting when its an older horse who we perhaps feel has done its bit... I was very upset about Erics Charm. I was also very upset at Rewilding as he'd earned so much money and he just broke his leg on the flat. As long as precautions are taken then I guess I need to live with it though as I love racing and betting :/