Kezza
Well-Known Member
Anyone had any experience of any of these for navilcular OR bone spavin (2 different horses) in the hock? and particularly interested in those who had their horse treated at home not at the vets. thanks
Tildren, Legend, Adequan, steroids
- Thread starter Kezza
- Start date
Eira
Well-Known Member
I've had experience of Adequan for both (on the same horse
) she's just coming to the end of the 6months so we are looking into treating again .. but so far , so good and it has definitely helped and she has shown some improvement !
treena
Well-Known Member
check out a website for microvet. works by using micro current therapy. worked for me..
barrymeningen
Well-Known Member
I had tildren for a horse with lises (sp?) in his hocks, it was expensive but seemed to work well.
Another of my horses had ethanol injected in to his hocks for spavins, it's experimental but worked where steroids failed.
My vet advised me to have the treatment in the surgery because of the risk of infection.
Another of my horses had ethanol injected in to his hocks for spavins, it's experimental but worked where steroids failed.
My vet advised me to have the treatment in the surgery because of the risk of infection.
Kezza
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I had tildren for a horse with lises (sp?) in his hocks, it was expensive but seemed to work well.
Another of my horses had ethanol injected in to his hocks for spavins, it's experimental but worked where steroids failed.
My vet advised me to have the treatment in the surgery because of the risk of infection.
[/ QUOTE ]
so you tried steroid into the hock without success? Did you try legend or adequan as well? What is ethanol? thanks
I had tildren for a horse with lises (sp?) in his hocks, it was expensive but seemed to work well.
Another of my horses had ethanol injected in to his hocks for spavins, it's experimental but worked where steroids failed.
My vet advised me to have the treatment in the surgery because of the risk of infection.
[/ QUOTE ]
so you tried steroid into the hock without success? Did you try legend or adequan as well? What is ethanol? thanks
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
Yes, mine had both hocks injected with steroid in June, at home. He has since had 2 courses of Adequan, both given at home. Sound as a pound ATM
I wasn't recommended Tildren by my vet for spavins. He thinks Adequan is a wonder drug.
I wasn't recommended Tildren by my vet for spavins. He thinks Adequan is a wonder drug.
Kezza
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, mine had both hocks injected with steroid in June, at home. He has since had 2 courses of Adequan, both given at home. Sound as a pound ATM
I wasn't recommended Tildren by my vet for spavins. He thinks Adequan is a wonder drug.
[/ QUOTE ]
do you think the steroid or the adequan brought him sound or both? thanks
Yes, mine had both hocks injected with steroid in June, at home. He has since had 2 courses of Adequan, both given at home. Sound as a pound ATM
I wasn't recommended Tildren by my vet for spavins. He thinks Adequan is a wonder drug.
[/ QUOTE ]
do you think the steroid or the adequan brought him sound or both? thanks
Hen
Well-Known Member
My boy has just had Tildren (about 10 days ago) and so I'll see I guess in a few weeks time whether it's helping or not. He was treated at home, no problems.
Kezza
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My boy has just had Tildren (about 10 days ago) and so I'll see I guess in a few weeks time whether it's helping or not. He was treated at home, no problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
what did he have it for? could you let me know his progress please? thanks ever so
My boy has just had Tildren (about 10 days ago) and so I'll see I guess in a few weeks time whether it's helping or not. He was treated at home, no problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
what did he have it for? could you let me know his progress please? thanks ever so
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
Difficult to say TBH. He was never really lame, just stiff behind. He had both hocks jabbed, 3 days box rest then 3 days field rest, and I hacked out in straight lines for about a month after that I think. It took a couple of weeks to see/feel a real difference, by which time he was 3 vials into his course of Adequan as well. He was also having a course of Metacam throughout this, as vet said when the steroids start to work it can be quite painful for them. So, I couldn't really say which treatment worked first. TBH it was probably the Metacam that helped to bring him sound, then everything else kicked in.
It took a while to see a real difference, ie for me to feel a difference in power from behind rather than just him feeling less stiff (which is what I suspect Metacam did). After a couple of weeks he was much more forward going out hacking, when before he'd been thoroughly disinterested in it. 4-6 weeks later he was feeling much more powerful and he's much better to school now. He really struggled with lateral work before the treatment but finds things much easier.
Assuming your horse is having treatment, I'd also recommend some osteopathy and or physio afterwards to ease the sore muscles he will have developed.
It took a while to see a real difference, ie for me to feel a difference in power from behind rather than just him feeling less stiff (which is what I suspect Metacam did). After a couple of weeks he was much more forward going out hacking, when before he'd been thoroughly disinterested in it. 4-6 weeks later he was feeling much more powerful and he's much better to school now. He really struggled with lateral work before the treatment but finds things much easier.
Assuming your horse is having treatment, I'd also recommend some osteopathy and or physio afterwards to ease the sore muscles he will have developed.
Hen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
what did he have it for? could you let me know his progress please? thanks ever so
[/ QUOTE ]
Spavin in hock, also to try to help ease some resultant sacroiliac discomfort. Happy to let you know how we get on - he'll be back in work from the end of this month.
what did he have it for? could you let me know his progress please? thanks ever so
[/ QUOTE ]
Spavin in hock, also to try to help ease some resultant sacroiliac discomfort. Happy to let you know how we get on - he'll be back in work from the end of this month.
K27
Well-Known Member
My horses have had these for various reasons (treated at home apart from the Tildren which he had done at the vets as he was there for something else anyway).
One horse had Adequan a few years ago when he suffered a bone cyst- he had 2 injections and mainly box rest/controlled exercise for a couple of months, and afterwards was going brilliantly and never had any more probs with it. The same horse also had Tildren treatment last year for bone/heel pain and v v slight changes in his hocks and it worked great- (he was literally floating on his feet around the field!) for the first 6 weeks and then he felt like he needed more so we opted for Depomedrone (long lasting)cortisone injections which worked much better for him- apparently some horses do need top ups of Tildren as it sometimes doesn't work first time.
Another horse I have has slight spavin and straight away it was decided he would have the long lasting cortisone injections, and on him they work brilliantly and is in full work hacking schooling competing , he goes approx 8 months between injections - my advice would be even if he horse has one bad hock to get both treated, as the other better one can end up taking the strain. They also get antibiotics after their joint injections as well.
With the cortisone injections my horses carry on fairly normally- it takes 15 days for the steroids to kick in and after that even when walking out he feels much more powerful, they have 2 weeks easy walking work hacking and after that we build it back up gradually to their normal workload.
I hope you've good insurance as the Adequan/Tildren is very expensive!!, I think the cortisone injections work out a little bit cheaper.
Good luck with your horses though.
One horse had Adequan a few years ago when he suffered a bone cyst- he had 2 injections and mainly box rest/controlled exercise for a couple of months, and afterwards was going brilliantly and never had any more probs with it. The same horse also had Tildren treatment last year for bone/heel pain and v v slight changes in his hocks and it worked great- (he was literally floating on his feet around the field!) for the first 6 weeks and then he felt like he needed more so we opted for Depomedrone (long lasting)cortisone injections which worked much better for him- apparently some horses do need top ups of Tildren as it sometimes doesn't work first time.
Another horse I have has slight spavin and straight away it was decided he would have the long lasting cortisone injections, and on him they work brilliantly and is in full work hacking schooling competing , he goes approx 8 months between injections - my advice would be even if he horse has one bad hock to get both treated, as the other better one can end up taking the strain. They also get antibiotics after their joint injections as well.
With the cortisone injections my horses carry on fairly normally- it takes 15 days for the steroids to kick in and after that even when walking out he feels much more powerful, they have 2 weeks easy walking work hacking and after that we build it back up gradually to their normal workload.
I hope you've good insurance as the Adequan/Tildren is very expensive!!, I think the cortisone injections work out a little bit cheaper.
Good luck with your horses though.
Kezza
Well-Known Member
sadly no insurance as he's 23 but the money is not important as he's my baby! the spavin is mild. cortisone is steroid isn't it? the only downside i have heard about that is that it allows you to cause more damage as it masks the symptoms, is that true? and you need to continue giving it which is not good long term?
K27
Well-Known Member
Aww 23, thats a good age!Yes the cortisone/Steroid does mask the syptoms to some extent , however I think it's fine, as long as I know my horses limitations and work out a good exercise plan and luckily we have excellent vets to advise us, with the Adequan it eases the joint and lubricates it etc a bit like adding oil to a car engine I guess but has no pain killer in it, but sadly in my horses case with his spavin, spavin is arthritis and arthritis is degenerative so it won't get better, so if he can have steroid injections to be kept comfortable and useful then thats fine, his is only very mild though, he's had no side effects from the steroids either. I seem to remember each Adequan injection worked out at approx £500 and one lot of Tildren was around£650-£700, and the cortisone was approx £2-£300 for each hock, but I guess it depends on whereabouts in the country you're located.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
Adequan is costing me £500 a course ATM (I'm insured
) but I believe, if your vet will write you a prescription, you can get it online for about £200. Cortisone injections are, according to my vet, £150 when you are NOT insured (twice that if you are...
again). Mine will be having his hocks injected again in March after further x-rays, and I will have them again if need be once the insurance has run out. I have heard that about steroid injections and imagine it must be true - my sister has just had cortisone injections in to her shoulder for frozen shoulder type symptoms, and said that it hurt like hell for 2 days but she doesn't feel any symptoms now..
samuelhorse
Well-Known Member
Only problem is with cortison (a steroid) It can induce laminitis!
My boy had adequan for hock spavin - didnt notice an awful lot of difference tbh x
My boy had adequan for hock spavin - didnt notice an awful lot of difference tbh x
Kezza
Well-Known Member
I am so torn!! He was diagnosed a year ago when he refused his first ever jump. I tried raised heels with some success but didn't want to go down the bute/danilon route. My vet suggested tildren or HA and Steroids and the steroid scares me due to lami risk. She also didn't really recommend injecting his hock, she was more for the tildren route. I retired him and removed his shoes and he is great at the mo, he was only ever lame on flexion test and I haven't done this so not sure he is still lame. I will get vet out to check. If he is I don't know which route to try first! dilemma....
Kezza
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Only problem is with cortison (a steroid) It can induce laminitis!
My boy had adequan for hock spavin - didnt notice an awful lot of difference tbh x
[/ QUOTE ]
did you try anything else? thanks
Only problem is with cortison (a steroid) It can induce laminitis!
My boy had adequan for hock spavin - didnt notice an awful lot of difference tbh x
[/ QUOTE ]
did you try anything else? thanks
samuelhorse
Well-Known Member
Ended up trying retirement, which didnt work. So is on cortaflex and gentle hacking. He is however in his 20's. Retirement made him very very stiff behind.
Now, when ridden he sets off a bit stiff, but then is fine -
Wouldnt entertain the cortisone as he lami prone anyway.
Wasnt offered anything else by vets!
Now, when ridden he sets off a bit stiff, but then is fine -
Wouldnt entertain the cortisone as he lami prone anyway.
Wasnt offered anything else by vets!
K27
Well-Known Member
Another thing I would add is have you tried a joint supplement like Newmarket Joint supplement? I swear by it (or even a Cortaflex type supplement) - mine are on Newmarket and it has worked really well, also have been feeding them joint aid as has lots of added extras in, but am going to keep them on the Newmarket from now on as they have stopped making the joint aid
Kezza
Well-Known Member
he's been on cortaflex for years anyway and now has gold label bute free which is brill. I am looking for that bit extra though esp if he comes up lame still on a flexion test.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
I would think the lami risk of steroids is pretty slim, surely? I also think we can worry too much about these things - look how many side effects, for example, the pill can have yet I bet not a single woman you know will have suffered many, if any of them. I would also be wary of reading too much into things posted on here; there are a fair few scaremongers on here. What's right for one horse isn't going to be right for another and I think you really need to have this conversation with your vet rather than on an internet forum. Not meaning to sound harsh but you and your vet know your horse, no one on here can know him and predict how he will react.
I can only tell you what I would do... personally, given your horse's age, I'd probably go for steroids. - unless you can afford Tildren My YO's 16yo isn't insured and he's just had cortisone and glucosamine jabs into coffin joints, which didn't cost even a fraction of my (insured) horse's Adequan etc. Mine won't be insured for spavins after June 2010 so I'll be having him x-rayed and treated again before it runs out, and then after that I'll stick with steroids. I have lateral extensions now on my boy too which have really helped. I had a conversation with my farrier 2 weeks ago about him and we both agreed that at his age, 14yo, he shouldn't be on bute, but in a couple of years or so, I don't see a problem with starting him on a low dose (or Danilon, or Metacam) if he gets stiff again and it helps to keep him moving. That will make my horse 16 or 17 when he starts on pain killers so at 23, I personally wouldn't see a problem with giving a low dose to help him out. Even my old dog has Metacam to maintain his quality of life!
I can only tell you what I would do... personally, given your horse's age, I'd probably go for steroids. - unless you can afford Tildren My YO's 16yo isn't insured and he's just had cortisone and glucosamine jabs into coffin joints, which didn't cost even a fraction of my (insured) horse's Adequan etc. Mine won't be insured for spavins after June 2010 so I'll be having him x-rayed and treated again before it runs out, and then after that I'll stick with steroids. I have lateral extensions now on my boy too which have really helped. I had a conversation with my farrier 2 weeks ago about him and we both agreed that at his age, 14yo, he shouldn't be on bute, but in a couple of years or so, I don't see a problem with starting him on a low dose (or Danilon, or Metacam) if he gets stiff again and it helps to keep him moving. That will make my horse 16 or 17 when he starts on pain killers so at 23, I personally wouldn't see a problem with giving a low dose to help him out. Even my old dog has Metacam to maintain his quality of life!
Kezza
Well-Known Member
my vet recommended tildren but offered me the other route hence me asking for people's experience and as tildren is relatively new it's important for me to get evidence from people who have used it, that's why I have posted on here!
My vet did not recommend steroids but said if I went down the HA route she would put a little steroid in as well.
I have choices which is why I am a bit unsure which route to go down, of course I can try all the routes, money is not a problem.
My vet did not recommend steroids but said if I went down the HA route she would put a little steroid in as well.
I have choices which is why I am a bit unsure which route to go down, of course I can try all the routes, money is not a problem.
Kezza
Well-Known Member
and I don't really just want to mask it with bute etc regardless of his age, I am keen on these other methods which appear to do more than that if your horse responds well.
Jericho
Well-Known Member
We had tildren on my boy who was diagnosed with navicular syndrome. Didnt make one bit of difference so vets prognosis was that his problems lie elsewhere like soft tissue damage
baeloclaudia
Well-Known Member
One of mine has navicula syndrome/heel pain. Had him barefoot a first but he galloped around in the field when it was hard in the summer (Remember that?) and really made himself sore, so he ended up shod again. In straight bars at the mo. but have used eggbars, and heart bars too - though his feet according to vet and farrier are in really good shape and not 'classic' navic type feet bar his thin,flat sole.
He's had so far....
Cartrophen - helped a lot but wore of fairly quick.
Tildren - not a huge difference so not repeated.
Adequan - likewise
And finally Steroid/HA into joint.
Last one really was a last resort, and he's such a good doer have had to be very careful with his weight re. the lami risk.
We're back at the vets on Monday but I'm not hopeful to be honest. He's been something of a t1t in this wind and I think is sore again.
Vet has said we are pretty well running out of options, and the insurance (who have been great so far) will only last until Jan 2010.
He's had so far....
Cartrophen - helped a lot but wore of fairly quick.
Tildren - not a huge difference so not repeated.
Adequan - likewise
And finally Steroid/HA into joint.
Last one really was a last resort, and he's such a good doer have had to be very careful with his weight re. the lami risk.
We're back at the vets on Monday but I'm not hopeful to be honest. He's been something of a t1t in this wind and I think is sore again.
Vet has said we are pretty well running out of options, and the insurance (who have been great so far) will only last until Jan 2010.
Aru
Well-Known Member
If hes lami prone id steer clear of the steroids
.....If he need management for pain id go with something like metacam or bute to see if that improves the situation.Even though they do mask the pain its a better way to improve quality of life as they dont have as many other side effects as steroids.which can have a list as long as your arm.Id advise using them in an oldy only as a last resort.
...plus our lecturer has a quote on steroids
"a horse on steroids can walk itself al the way to the altopsy room"
steroids they are wonder drugs but they can mask pain to a severe degree so if the exact cause of lameness isnt known they can cause a horse to use a limb when it shouldnt and worsen the injury.
what sort of work is he in and how lame is he?
Tildren is an amazing drug for navicular and bone spavin by all acounts but it cant turn back the hands of time his joints may already be damaged to a stage where it needs management not control. Tildren stops the process of bone resorption and breakdown and encourages new bone formation.It works best in cases existing less than 6 months.
Legend is Hyaluronic Acid. Hyaluronic Acid (HA) is the major component of normal joint fluid. When it is placed within a specific joint it acts as a lubricant and a mild anti-inflammatory for that joint only.It isnt a long term solution omly lasts 2 to 7 days but it can help manage the condition.
Adequan good drug for degenerative joint disease like arthritis as it can help act as building block of cartilage matrix and help the joint recover so it could be good for navicular if its a problem with the bone not the tendons.
Hope that helps....were doing Drug treatments for lameness in collage at the minute hence the long reply.
.....If he need management for pain id go with something like metacam or bute to see if that improves the situation.Even though they do mask the pain its a better way to improve quality of life as they dont have as many other side effects as steroids.which can have a list as long as your arm.Id advise using them in an oldy only as a last resort.
...plus our lecturer has a quote on steroids
"a horse on steroids can walk itself al the way to the altopsy room"
steroids they are wonder drugs but they can mask pain to a severe degree so if the exact cause of lameness isnt known they can cause a horse to use a limb when it shouldnt and worsen the injury.
what sort of work is he in and how lame is he?
Tildren is an amazing drug for navicular and bone spavin by all acounts but it cant turn back the hands of time his joints may already be damaged to a stage where it needs management not control. Tildren stops the process of bone resorption and breakdown and encourages new bone formation.It works best in cases existing less than 6 months.
Legend is Hyaluronic Acid. Hyaluronic Acid (HA) is the major component of normal joint fluid. When it is placed within a specific joint it acts as a lubricant and a mild anti-inflammatory for that joint only.It isnt a long term solution omly lasts 2 to 7 days but it can help manage the condition.
Adequan good drug for degenerative joint disease like arthritis as it can help act as building block of cartilage matrix and help the joint recover so it could be good for navicular if its a problem with the bone not the tendons.
Hope that helps....were doing Drug treatments for lameness in collage at the minute hence the long reply.
Kezza
Well-Known Member
thanks so much Aru. really helpful