*Tin hat* What would make an unshod horse wear toes down....

[PapaFrita]

faster than the heels? WAY faster.
Horses (not mine!) have been unshod for about 8 months, and pretty much left to themselves with the odd rasp to tidy up cracks. They live out 24/7, we have had no rain in months, and the ground is v hard, but where they are is pretty much dried grass and dirt. Diet is alfalfa (because there is no grass)
One of the horses, a 4yo mare who was shod briefly has nice wide frogs but her feet are getting more and more upright. She's wearing her toes to the point that her front feet are getting wider than they are long
The second horse is much older, 19,I think and has been shod most of his life. His feet are a more 'normal' shape, but again, wearing much faster at the toe and the frogs are more contracted than the mare.
Both horses are sound even on stony ground, although the toes show signs of bruising.
I can get photos tomorrow, but am baffled as my 2 (at the same place and on a similar diet) wear their feet far more evenly.
Any input appreciated and will be passed on. Thanks

 

[cptrayes]

This happens when the feet are actually too long, and the horse takes the toe off square to keep the breakover in the right place. Is that what you are seeing?

Otherwise, it sounds like they have some heel pain from something like thrush and are landing toe first.

 

[brucea]

Agree with [content removed] here. Heels are uncomfortable usually.

Get in there with some gauze strips, some povidone or similar, floss away at the central sulci and you'll find keeping them clean and staying on top of thrush will be a major help to him.

 

[amandap]

Weighting the toe. Do a video in slo mo on a flat level surface and see how the horse is landing.

As said above, in my understanding it's most often pain/discomfort in the back of the hoof. Thrush, weak structure etc.

 

[Rosie'smum]

Im interested in this thread because Rosie Wears down the Oustide of her hoof more than the inside.

 

[Gloi]

Im interested in this thread because Rosie Wears down the Oustide of her hoof more than the inside.

That is likely to be being caused by a deviation higher up her leg which is contributing to her not moving straight and the outside of the hoof landing first. Mine does it because he stands toe out and has a slight deviation at the knee causing him to plait a bit.

 

[PapaFrita]

OK now have photos to you show you. First is 19yo gelding who has been shod his entire life.

Photos of 2nd horse to follow

 

[PapaFrita]

India, 4yo TB cross. I heard today she was born with very boxy hind feet which were 'corrected' by the farrier. I use inverted commas because there are only 2 good farriers where I live and neither of them had anything to do with these feet.

She doesn't actually stand like that; the ground is unlevel

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Looking at those photos - Hercules is just bringing the toe back to the breakover point. His hooves are not great at the moment (contracted heels and taller than they should be) but you said that he is sound, so keeping him BF, with careful trimming and stimulation/movement and they should improve.

India does have really upright hinds with tall heels. Again it does look like she's bringing the toes back to the breakover point. You said that her hooves were like this when she was born. It's possible that if the heels were lowered too much she would become unsound.

Do you have any trained BF trimmers where you are who could come and look?

 

[Gloi]

I would suspect Hercules to be starting with arthritic changes in his knees or front fetlocks

 

[PapaFrita]

Do you have any trained BF trimmers where you are who could come and look?

Nope. We barely have trained farriers. The one who used to shoe these 2 wants to put shoes back on. Normally I have great respect for farriers, but this one is not deserving.

 

[PapaFrita]

I would suspect Hercules to be starting with arthritic changes in his knees or front fetlocks

Actually, this is one of the things I mentioned to his owner. Highly likely, I'd've thought

 

[joeanne]

I would find a better farrier and get shoes back on...

 

[Lady La La]

If the cheese grater really isn't an option, I'd do what J said.

 

[PapaFrita]

I would find a better farrier and get shoes back on...

I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I would find a better farrier and get shoes back on...

Better Farrier - yes
Shoes - no

Why would you shoe horses that are sound on all surfaces unshod? Wearing the toes to the breakover point is one of the main advantages of unshod/BF over shod. Another is the reduced concussion, which is important with arthritis.

 

[joeanne]

Its the less of two evils Faracat, these horses are in a country where the majority of horses are shod by people with little or no training. I would rather see them comfy on shoes than causing yet more damage to already deteriorating hooves.
IF in time a farrier can be found with the knowledge to help them go unshod, great, but my money is on shoes in this case.

 

[Orangehorse]

If most of the farriers aren't very good, why would the best plan be to have the horse shod by one of them?

I am not qualifed to put forward any theory as to why the toes are wearing faster than the heels, but if the horses are completely sound as they are, why put shoes on?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

In a country with dodgy farriers, I'd much rather have unshod horses. They are sound after all and we haven't seen two sets of photos from different times, so saying that they are getting worse is an assumption.

Wearing down the toes to the breakover point is not a bad thing. If the horses become footsore, then that is the point where shoeing would be a more serious option.

 

[Scarlett]

Looks like they are just bringing the breakover point back to where it needs to be, its only as noticeable as the feet could do with a trim. Happens with mine every 3 month's or so and is usually the point I'd call the trimmer out. Personally if sound I wouldn't stress and I certainly wouldn't shoe - surely it's the feet just doing what they need to to stay balanced?

Do they heel land when walking?

 

[PapaFrita]

If the cheese grater really isn't an option, I'd do what J said.

Yes.... that might be the safer option

 

[Nightwatcher]

Horses in the wild dont wear shoes. Why would you shoes a horse? Can't be very comfortable to have metal and nails driven through your hoof wall!

 

[PapaFrita]

Better Farrier - yes
Shoes - no

Why would you shoe horses that are sound on all surfaces unshod? Wearing the toes to the breakover point is one of the main advantages of unshod/BF over shod. Another is the reduced concussion, which is important with arthritis.

Actually, having seen the older horse move yesterday, I would say he is not 100% sound. Then again, he's getting on a bit, so he may have pain elsewhere.

 

[PapaFrita]

Its the less of two evils Faracat, these horses are in a country where the majority of horses are shod by people with little or no training. I would rather see them comfy on shoes than causing yet more damage to already deteriorating hooves.
IF in time a farrier can be found with the knowledge to help them go unshod, great, but my money is on shoes in this case.

I haven't ONCE heard a farrier (good or bad) here support or advocate keeping horses unshod. Also, once shoes are off, people tend to ignore their horses' feet, which is the case here. They also ignore the feet when they're shod until a shoe comes off (which is when it is deemed necessary to reshoe)

 

[PapaFrita]

Do they heel land when walking?

Honestly, I don't know.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I haven't ONCE heard a farrier (good or bad) here support or advocate keeping horses unshod. Also, once shoes are off, people tend to ignore their horses' feet, which is the case here. They also ignore the feet when they're shod until a shoe comes off (which is when it is deemed necessary to reshoe)

Rubbish.

Even unshod, the hoof balance should be checked regularly and also other problems eg thrush should be looked out for.

If the older boy isn't quite happy, it would be a good idea if the owner finds out why.

 

[PapaFrita]

Rubbish.

Even unshod, the hoof balance should be checked regularly and also other problems eg thrush should be looked out for.

If the older boy isn't quite happy, it would be a good idea if the owner finds out why.

Well mine are unshod and I watch them like a hawk. Needless to say, they don't look like these feet! I think the owner was hoping that they'd look after themselves and this is what's happened.
They did have thrush earlier in the year. The mare had a bit of seedy toe. both were treated and it's been so dry for the past 4 months, I don't think thrush would stand much of a chance; owner does at least pick them out

 

[amandap]

I'm no professional and tbh I haven't seen a wear pattern like that in the flesh so can't help really. It's such a shame you have no trimmers there to help.
I wouldn't rule out thrush still being a factor though, it can be dry and the black in the collateral grooves and central sulci of some hooves is suspect. It is well worth doing a slo mo video of them walking on a flat level surface to see how they are landing. http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_MoreTopics.html

http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsebackMagazineArticles.html Reading sole thickness article on here might help you as well. Not sure how with no professional to help... sorry.
Also have a look at Pete Ramey's articles especially the heel and sole ones.

Is a pea gravel area out?

 

[PapaFrita]

Is a pea gravel area out?

Thanks for the info. Will look it up
No pea gravel area; they're in a field with no grass (it hasn't rained in months) but when hacked out they go on rough/stony terrain (well, not the gelding lately) We have lots of unmade roads near/around the yard.

 

[Millthorn]

Rubbish.

Even unshod, the hoof balance should be checked regularly and also other problems eg thrush should be looked out for.

If the older boy isn't quite happy, it would be a good idea if the owner finds out why.

I think you missed the point that no Farrier THERE advocates leaving them unshod.You can't change a Country's attitude to horse care over night on a forum and isn't answering the original question about why it is happening ( even if you are right in what you say ) ...