Tips for helping pony - learning to respond to bit/aids

Gropony

Gropony

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Hi all

Excuse the length but the background is important.

I bought my pony from my riding school when it closed down in June last year. He is a 9 year old Haflinger x who has only been a club pony and done a season in a campsite when he was very (too) young. He was actually rented by the club and belonged to a dealer who buys, breaks and rents out ponies/horses like this. So you can imagine how the breaking and training goes given they rent them for EUR 45 a month.

Luckily the person at the club is oriented towards a more positive method and she continued his training. However, even she found him exceptionally difficult, and told me it made her question everything she ever knew about training horses and horses in general. For example, he took 8 months before he would allow someone to take his feet (I didn't believe this until I had to treat his eye recently and I saw how he panics, leaves the room mentally and is dangerous to himself and others). He took three years to be able to canter in a circle falls over everything, walks over people and other horses, is completely unable to read the signs from other horses when they have had enough or want him to move away. He panics quickly, he doesn't hack out on his own, with others he is stressed all the time, on foot we can do a half hour walk but he is not at ease. He is great for groundwork (unless he panics then he is no longer in the room), he lunges in liberty, responds to voice and body commands etc. But when he doesn't want to do something then it is really no, he doesn't say it gently.

All this is just how he is and has always been. He has seen the dentist, vet and osteopath. The osteopath remarked straight away how he doesn't hesitate to say no and defend himself.

I have no great ambitions for him and me. I bought him because he wouldn't survive in the rental system given how he is. But I do want to help him progress and I do believe that it is important that he is safe and well balanced mentally in the event that anything ever happens to me and he has to be sold (there is already a plan b and c but I still believe we have a responsibility to our animals to.set them up for life).

So for now we work a lot of the ground, he is excellent, he has really progressed. Ridden he is difficult. He panics as soon as he doesn't understand then he bolts and bucks. I think that a lot of the issue is that he has zero understanding of the aids because he responds to the voice. But once he panics he isn't in the room anymore so the voice doesn't work.

So if you got this far, I would like to work on his understand of the rein aids and his response to pressure in his mouth. At the moment he braces against any pressure on the bit, opens his mouth and raises his head. I try to be soft but he doesn't hesitate to open his mouth and tank me off somewhere.

So my question is, do you have any tips on how to teach him to not brace against the bit, relax a bit and also when he goes how to stop him quickly and safely without yanking at his mouth. I do try to ride with my legs and seat but is also a question of safety (he would mow someone down if they were in.his way). Last week he ran straight through a jump that happened to be in the arena.

For info, we have lessons weekly but the instructor is old school and of the yank in the mouth variety and sees it as a disobedience to be punished. And I can't move yards or change instructors (too long to explain).

If you got this far, congratulations, and any tips taken with gratitude.

Gill
 
I would follow a ‘Philippe Karl’ type method with him. It’s all about lightness and understanding, teaches flexion and aids from the ground first. If you Google, you’ll find videos and books. The books can be a bit hard going because they are so technical, but I came across this when looking for a solution for a tricky sensitive pony and I really like it. If you can find an instructor with a similar approach that would be good too!

We have a pony who has had huge trauma and was struggling in an extremely experienced home. I have a thread in competition and training on her. It took her a year to trust us, and two years in she is very very attached to my son (improving with others but he’s her ‘person’). I built trust with clicker training and endless walks out in hand. Now, she’ll go to panic, run a couple of steps towards me (because I represent safety) then hear my son’s voice and relax. She often still needs a cuddle after but is improving more and more with time.
 
What Midlifecrisis said, but, with that caveat, if you are stuck with your current instructor and are determined to ride him I'd want to ask:

On the ground, does he understand nose and bit pressure?
Is he comfortable in his mouth (any scarring on the tongue/bars? Is the bit a good fit and suitable for his mouth shape? Would he be happier bitless?)
Is he comfortable in his body (saddle fit? physical issues beyond what a body worker can help with?)
Has he ever been properly taught what rein aids mean?

Depending on the answers, can you work on the ground (starting in the stable, if necessary) to teach him what bit pressure means? Philippe Karl/School of Lightness (books, facebook community if you can't access an instructor) is a good resource for teaching flexions and helping the horse understand what the bit is for. If there's no physical component and he is just lacking understanding and feeling threatened/frightened, I would use food rewards, a lot of them - being ridden is clearly not a pleasant experience so give him some incentives. I'd go very slowly to minimise the chances of an 'oh sh!t' situation arising. I'd probably work just on the ground teaching him to yield to the bit and doing things he seems to enjoy (if any) until it was second nature.

If he was mine I probably wouldn't do any of that though. I'd just say he had a tragically bad start and he'd probably had a very stressful time with humans which I can just bring to an end by allowing him not to be ridden at all. I'd make sure his future was secured via euthanasia if anything happened to me and let him have a nice life in a herd preferably and maybe do some things on the ground, such as horse agility, if he wants to. The grey in my avatar was similar, not as extreme because he'd had a good start and been screwed up later, but I bought him to ride and decided it wasn't in his interests to work. He too would be 'not in the room' when he said no, although this was usually in hand, and he couldn't be on his own or stabled. Along with some physical wonkiness, I just thought 'he's had enough', and now he's happily retired with a friend.
 
Thank you for all the suggestions and I will look up the resources.

I often think about leaving him be but honestly, he is the one at the gate at 6pm yelling at me. For 9 months of the year he is out 24/7 with a group a six and if I go at night he still comes. Also, he has uveitis, which is managed but he has to wear a mask all summer and needs checking and bringing in if it flares up. So he needs to be near me and because I live on the outskirts of a big city there are no places with that sort of land. He is in the only place near me that offers group turnout hence I can't move.

Plus he loves equifeel stuff and groundwork in the arena. And he likes pottering about the arena ridden doing obstacle courses etc.

To the question, do I need to ride him. No, I don't personally feel the need to but when not panicking he likes to learn stuff - he gets very proud and does his big boy walk and lip. So I'll go back to basics. He has never learnt what the aids (leg, hand or otherwise mean) and I will start there. On the ground he just knows to stay by my shoulder or hand and respond to my voice, so there is no pressure anywhere to guide him or stop him. As soon as there is, he braces and walks through it.

The dentist told me he had quite bad scarring from having his wolf teeth out so I will also check the bit/bitless question. He didn't suggest it was an issue but that doesn't mean it isn't.

Thank you so much
 
Also, he learns by watching (good and bad habits unfortunately). Whilst it may seem unbelievable, he used to always come into the centre when asked to stop on the lunge and I never bothered about this. His stable overlooks the lunge area and one day the instructor was lunging a different horse and teaching him to stay on the track when asked to stop. My pony was transfixed for the whole time and the next time I lunged him and asked him to stop, he stopped dead on the track and looked at me all proud. So he likes to do well and whilst he has this motivation I feel like I want to offer him activities that he can enjoy, but safely.
 
I think sadly you have a pony who is in pain and living on the edge. Uveitis is agonising and the drops blur vision. Hes got scarring in his mouth. There is probably other stuff. and then add in a bad start. Its no wonder he's like that.

I have no doubt your going to tell me he's fine, but please think about why a sweet obliging pony is the worst pony an experienced instructor has ever known. Lots of horses clearly go through that system and come out much better than he has, and this friendly nice pony didn't despite intense workto help him. There is a reason for that. I will bet serious money that there is a physical issue underlying all of this. If you can find and sort that then you will find unpicking the ridden issues easy.
 
He very rarely has flare ups and when he does he comes in, takes all treatments and I would never do anything with him until his eye was 100% back to normal and he wasn't in pain. We play games in the stable that he loves but that is all. It's not at the stage where it is constant and my vet and I are doing everything to avoid that as long as possible. In between episodes he is normal and it is once every two or three years at the moment and responds quickly to treatment. He has very little damage and his vision is still 99.9% normal. One day this won't be the case and I will continue to do everything necessary to ensure his comfort and quality of life.

However I wouldn't say he is fine, because he has zero malice in him so he is reacting to something. I will go through everything again systemically, starting with his mouth and back.

He wasn't the worst pony she had seen, she loves him to bits and is still in touch. Just that it was very hard to.figure out what worked with him as he was different in the way he way he interacts with the world, doesn't react as you would expect and he makes you reflect on what we ask of our horses and how they perceive the world.
 
How often is he like this?
Have you tried keeping a diary to see if there is a pattern to the behavior?

I personally think it sounds like he is in pain.
When did he last see the vet?
Have you tried a bute trial?

I'd be asking the vet to look at his eyes again and possibly test for neurological issues.
 
Gropony said:
He very rarely has flare ups and when he does he comes in, takes all treatments and I would never do anything with him until his eye was 100% back to normal and he wasn't in pain. We play games in the stable that he loves but that is all. It's not at the stage where it is constant and my vet and I are doing everything to avoid that as long as possible. In between episodes he is normal and it is once every two or three years at the moment and responds quickly to treatment. He has very little damage and his vision is still 99.9% normal. One day this won't be the case and I will continue to do everything necessary to ensure his comfort and quality of life.

However I wouldn't say he is fine, because he has zero malice in him so he is reacting to something. I will go through everything again systemically, starting with his mouth and back.

He wasn't the worst pony she had seen, she loves him to bits and is still in touch. Just that it was very hard to.figure out what worked with him as he was different in the way he way he interacts with the world, doesn't react as you would expect and he makes you reflect on what we ask of our horses and how they perceive the world.
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I'd got straight for a vet work up. Its amazing what is found when an experienced vet is involved. Has he had an eye specialist look at his eye? I'd be inclined to think there was another cause, but I'd want to be absolutely sure it wasn't an issue with his sight as it can make them feel very vulnerable and frightened.
 
He saw the vet twice in early November when he had a flare up and again two weeks ago to check that everything was back to normal (it was). He saw the dentist in October and the osteopath as well.

He hasn't had an eye specialist look in his eye to be fair, just the vet. I will look into it.

It's a good idea to keep a diary. I haven't noticed a pattern except he is worse at night with the floodlights on because he doesn't like the shadows. He has certain places where he systemically gets stressed but I don't recall there ever being something that happened there to cause a bad association. I try to do nice things in those places with rewards etc. The panic tends to be random but for me comes from a place of not understanding which leads to stress very quickly if I don't react fast enough to change the situation to a reassuring one. It is also worse in the smaller arena, I.think because the horses are closer together and it is just more intense feeling and things like the corner arrive quicker. He has never done it when I am alone in the arena except to panic at a motorbike noise or such, and he stops himself after 10 strides in this case.

I also don't rule out that I create/contribute to it by not being clear, holding on to his mouth by accident etc and adding to an.existing feeling of pressure that might come from something else/pain.

Lots to look at, thank you so much.
 
Gropony said:
I also don't rule out that I create/contribute to it by not being clear, holding on to his mouth by accident etc and adding to an.existing feeling of pressure that might come from something else/pain.
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I have this problem too, when me or pony get spooked we both brace and get stiff and get caught in a panicky little feedback loop. I know you say you can't change instructors but that is what is helping us at the minute. I use a behaviourist now and R+ for riding as well as groundwork and liberty stuff. It just seems to widen the window where one of us can have a little whoops moment and nobody truly panics. A nice soft halt gets reinforcement, being relaxed in the walk or trot gets reinforcement, giving me a soft neck just for a moment gets reinforcement, being in the spooky bit of the arena* gets reinforcement even if she is just standing there. Rewarding tiny tiny things very clearly has been of huge benefit, either I am not clear or quick enough for the connection to be made with pressure-release or it just isn't clear, or reinforcing enough for her so we are being very "loud" and obvious with it!

Other people have covered the "vet check" aspect so I won't repeat, but actively rewarding relaxation should help with his natural defensiveness there also.

*Interesting with the shadows and having very strong reactions to seemingly random "spooky spots" as my mare is the same. Her eyesight is fine but behaviourist suspects that being confined to a stable for so long when she was young has possibly had an effect on her visual processing. Just interesting!
 
Echo what the others have said about something physical, also I'd say its better to have no lessons than pay for lessons with someone who will pressure you into bullying the horse into submission.
 
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