Tips on figuring out herd hierarchy?

[atropa]

Just a pondering question really!
How do you figure out from horse behaviour who is top dog in a herd, who is lower down the pecking order and who is at the bottom?
My mares are turned out in a mare only herd (well, younger one is, older currently boxresting). I got my younger mare in today and the 'boss' mare chased a newer mare away from mone, then followed up all the way down the field to the gate. Is she just thinking that I might bring her in too, or is she 'following' her herd to see where they're going?
In the past when my older mare was out in the field, she was close with boss mare and also one other mare, who turned very aggressive against the boss mare and was seen chasing her away from my older one, before she moved fields.
Can someone who is more experienced with horse behaviours shed some light on this for me, or are I just reading too much into it? Just makes me feel a bit thick when others at my yard are able to confidently say 'oh, xyz is boss in that field'

 

[YorksG]

It isn't as straightforward as that ime. The "bossy" mare is not necessarily the one in charge. We have had a herd of four for many years, but not the same four ifyswim. We had a coloured ex brood mare, who was always the smallest of the herd, for about twenty years, she was quiet and un-asuming, UNTIL the chips were down, then we knew who was in charge of the herd. A new mare thought the sheep might be interesting to play with, until the coloured mare (who shared her stable with a sheep for a good few years) told her that it was a very bad idea, cue the new 16.2 ID moving away from the sheep and the 14.3 coloured. It takes a lot of watching them to know who is truely in charge, rather than it being the bossy one.

 

[atropa]

Yes, I thought as much..it's especially difficult to work out with domestic horses whose herds change so often and those in same sex herds. When the very aggressive mare was still in the same herd, most at our yard assumed she was now 'boss mare' due to her outward displays of behaviour, whereas I saw it more as her being insecure/possessive about something, possibly my older mare. Have been doing some reading up on the differences between feral and domestic herds, really interesting stuff. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Surreydeb]

I have a stable herd of three mares. One cob is definitely the boss. She doesn't have to do anything, is always first at the water etc and the other two wait until she has finished - they defer to her and she rarely has to put them in their place. The pony is second in charge and the other cob bottom. The pony regularly puts this cob in her place - I see it as having to assert and confirm her position. She will chase the cob away and then later allow her back into the herd. I love watching the interactions!

 

[rachk89]

I never know these things either. My gelding was the one in charge at our last yard but not so sure anymore. It seems to be either him or one of the two big bays that is. But i don't think any of them are relinquishing power at any point as although they chase him at times he chases them too but he is usually the less aggressive one. Never seen him yet kick out at them but they do it to him now and again. They seem to have decided that they will have their own little groups although one of the bays never hangs around with any other horse he is usually by himself unless mine decides to go and irritate/play with him.

 

[_OC_]

You will find it is the one that is normally standing there quietly....their body language is so subtle ,slight ear movement, eyes observing ,and the way they stand.....will tell the herd their top......does not necessarily mean the one throwing them selves all over the place.....currently my cob is turned out with a younger mare.....he only looks at her and she backs off......and when he was in with geldings as a herd, when it came to coming in at night....he would be the one who got first pickings at the gate while the rest all stood round and behind...as soon as he was brought in the rest moved into place according to pecking order.

 

[huskydamage]

I thought if you put out one bit of food in field the top horse is the one that would get to eat it. The others wouldn't get near it.
People think my horse is top mare as she herds the others around, but if another horse was eating I don't think she would have the ballsyness to takeover and nick the food. I think she tries too hard lol the top horse doesn't have to

 

[Dry Rot]

Just to clarify things even further (NOT!), the dynamics will change also according to who has a foal, who is a foal of who, etc. and for other reasons. Introduction of a new herd member possibly being the greatest cause of a power struggle. Then it is all change again.

I've watched the social order of my dogs (usually up to seven to a kennel) for years and every time a dog was taken out for work or training (even for a few minutes) and then put back, there had to be a reshuffle and re-establishment of the social order with lots of growling and aggressive behaviour. Same thing with a pack of hounds and some members will be respected as having a good nose and able to detect a scent, so their giving tongue causes a heads up amongst the rest of the pack while others become known to be liars, pretending that they've found scent, and get ignored. Then there can be role reversal. Not dissimilar to a mob of children playing together. Probably the same in an office!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

The very best piece of advice I have ever been given: and the very cheapest "natural horsemanship" lesson you could ever give yourself - is to pack up some sarnies and a flask and head for one of the wild places in the British Isles where there are wild ponies (or ponies on a grazing project even, if you can observe them closely).

Park up where you can see the herd clearly, or walk to where they are, and just observe.

See if you can pick up who's who in the herd, where the herd boundary is, and what the dynamics are i.e. who's the Boss, and who the Watcher Mares are.

It won't cost you a penny and you will learn an incredible amount.

Here in the Westcountry we're lucky to have two places: Exmoor and Dartmoor. I've learnt such a lot just parking up and watching a herd.

Alternatively, book into a Parelli/"natural horsemanship" clinic for the day, re-mortgage your house to do so, buy all the books, DVD's & T'shirts going - and learn Sweet FA - apart from how to thoroughly confuse your horse, LOL

 

[Auslander]

I've been trying to work out the structure of my lot for a year, and still haven't quite got it figured out. Anyone got any ideas?

The three mares are easy - there is a number 1, a number 2, and number 3 - and the hierarchy is clear and fixed.
All three mares defer to Alf, and he and mare no 1 are very close (he's the boss in that relationship too).
Jim, when he was still here, was bottom of the heap with the mares, who all picked on him. Yet, Alf deferred to him, and if he didn't, he got beaten up.
Similar situation with a new gelding here - the mares have put him very firmly in his place at the bottom of the pile, but he lords it over Alf to the point that I won't have them together!
Little coloured cob is the lowest of the low, and knows his place - he probably has the most relaxed lifestyle of all of them