Tips to improve recall of an unruly Husky?! Help!

[Nikki J]

I would suggest that before electric shock treatment is considered, those who would plan to use them, consider that if they aren't able to teach a dog, either because of their own lack of experience, or the dog's breed temperament, then they should ask the question, "Have I the right breed of dog", which poses a second question, "Why do people buy dogs which have natural and known tendencies towards what would appear to be delinquent behaviour, and then come on here, and ask for help"? This isn't a direct attack against you, RCP, but the question is valid.

I've made my views obvious previously, and have conceded that in the most experienced of hands, there "may" be a place for electric collars, but then this raises the point that I've known some highly experienced trainers, who've operated at National level, in a variety of disciplines, and don't know of one who's used an electric collar.

In the wrong hands, an electric collar would be cruel, and with certain breeds and types, pain will all so often have the opposite effect than what's desired, and as we whip a horse to make it go faster, so pain created by electric shocks can drive the dog ever onwards.

I would, as always, advise others that they think very carefully before they experiment with electric collars.

Alec.

I entirely agree with what you say that in the wrong hands, an e collar is cruel. But you can apply that to any tool - a choke chain, a slip lead, anything.

In the right hands ... and I do not include my hands in that statement ... it is a very useful tool to enable dogs that normally would not be safe to let off the lead anywhere except the most secure of enclosures, to be exercised off the lead - something to me which is absolutely vital, as I consider it cruel to confine a dog to a lead for the whole of its life. If I had to do that with my dogs, then I would quite simply not have them. But I have at my fingertips, thanks to my hubby, a tool that enables my recalcitrant, intransigent boy Ben to run free, safe in the knowledge that we can recall him irrespective of whether he is pursuing a deer, a bitch, or just being plain naughty. It never fails, even when he is not wearing the collar! When he is commanded to Come, he comes!

 

[RCP Equestrian]

Sorry I abandoned you all haha cant quote on my phone

Some good advice from you all thank you! Definitely will seek more experienced help and will try the collars again (with help)

I know she is teaching my wolfdog to be less obediant but only on the odd occasion, not every time.

My only reasoning for asking for some recall tips is I just hate to think she has to spend all her days on a lead or tied on the yard when all the other dogs are allowed to tootle around. I have to say she has definitely improved since we got her and isnt half as bad as what she was but I think I've reached my experience level of training so just need a bit extra help to improve her again

Oh when she pulled the water it was only on a sledge so didnt weigh too much and was attatched by a harness, she totally loved it!

Fencing is also having a re vamp where the gaps are so fingers crossed with the temptation of freedom taken away she may be more inclined to listen.....I hope!

Thanks all wish me luck!

 

[suzysparkle]

If you are insisting on having her off the lead then the only 100% reliable solution is to have sufficient fencing that she can't jump over, dig under or escape through. Huskies just don't have reliable recall. Whilst you might get it to be good most of the time you really should never rely on it. I have heard many cases of huskies that were 'fine off the lead' only to one day do a runner and either be shot for chasing sheep or run over by a car. There were 2 shot near here a couple of years ago, escaped through a tiny gap in a window and started chasing sheep. I would never ever trust any of mine and when they are let off the lead it is only in a fully enclosed area (very high fencing).

Ours do not have a lesser quality of life and it really annoys me when I hear people saying otherwise about huskies and the fact they can't be let off leads. Our lives are devoted to them. They are regularly worked in harness and OP you have already identified that this is what yours loves. You don't need a big team to work them, you can work one dog using a bike, a scooter or just by plain running yourself and using a belt. The most important thing is that you keep tension on the line and don't do too much too soon. Most people start way too early for my liking but there's a debate for another day. They are bred to work in harness and this is when they are truly happy.

In addition to our pack we also have 2 collies. Why?? So we can have 'normal' dogs who we can let off the lead (they also work in harness!). They used an electric perimeter fence with collars on JRT's at a yard I used to work it. It worked most, but not all of the time. I definitely wouldn't trust one and have no desire to even try this method. Good luck with your girl.

 

[misterjinglejay]

Why Can’t Siberian Huskies Safely Go Off-Lead?





This is one of the constant questions raised about Siberian Huskies.



You would think it would be enough that:

every responsible Siberian Husky owner will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area
every ethical Siberian Husky Breeder will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area
every single Siberian Husky rescue organisation IN THE WORLD will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area; and that
every single Siberian Husky Club IN THE WORLD will tell you exactly the same thing.



Now these people and organisations don’t take this line for fun, or to "big up" the wild nature of their dogs, or to try to keep the breed exclusive. They take it because it accurately reflects the bitter experience of thousands of owners worldwide over a long period of time.



However, this obviously is not enough because there are still a steady stream of people who just don’t believe this unanimous and ubiquitous message. When you give examples of Siberians which have been killed, caused accidents or been shot by farmers for killing/savaging livestock, the doubters come back with, “But you could say the same about any breed!” – and to be honest, in many respects they would be right. Too many irresponsible owners of all kinds of dogs let their dog off lead with little thought for their dog’s safety, the safety of other animals, or the safety of the public. That is not for discussion here though. I want to explain why, in my opinion, it is never safe to let Siberian Huskies offlead in unenclosed areas.



So, Why is the off-lead thing such a big deal with huskies? What makes them different from other breeds?

There are two major factors, both embedded deep within the history of the breed. The dogs we now know as Siberian Huskies were originally developed by what are known as the “maritime” Chukchi people of North East Siberia who relied on dogs for transportation during the frozen winter. Other Chukchi groups relied on Reindeer for both food and winter transportation. The maritime Chukchi lived in fixed summer villages along the Bering Sea coast, but during the arctic/sub-arctic winter, became nomadic – following and hunting whatever game was available. The Chukchi would load their whole families on their sled and using teams of up to 20 dogs, would hunt all winter, sometimes covering 100 miles a day in their search for food. It was originally estimated that the Chukchi’s dogs had been in existence for some 3000 years, but recent archeological research has found the remains of sled-type dogs going back well over 10,000 years. Indeed, the Siberian Husky has been recognised as one of the oldest dog breeds known to mankind, so they have had a long time for their instincts and behavioural traits to become hard-wired into them.

The two major factors I mentioned above are:

An extremely strong Prey Drive; and
A fiercely independent intelligence.

 

[misterjinglejay]

And the next part LOL:
Prey Drive - The source of their prey drive is simple. During the summer, when they were not required as transportation, the Chukchi dogs ran free around the summer villages, rarely being fed by their owners, but existing (if not prospering) on what they could steal or catch. As winter came and food became scarce the dogs once more became sled dogs (of course not all the dogs returned - accidents and natural predators accounted for some, but at least there were no roads for them to be killed on). This pattern of behaviour was built up over a period of time which has been estimated as long as 10,000 years.

As a result of millennia of such behaviour, these dogs now have a fearsome prey drive and the hunting skills to match. It is very common to hear that someone’s huskies have killed cats, rabbits, squirrels, birds (ours have taken birds out of the sky as they fly over our garden at low level) and even sheep. It is rare that they regard even small dogs as “prey” as they seem to be able to recognise a fellow canine.



Independent Intelligence – You will occasionally hear dog trainers complain that huskies are not “trainable,” and you will consistently see them left out of lists of “The Ten Most Intelligent Dog Breeds” etc. The problem with such trainers and such lists is that they confuse obedience and “biddability” with intelligence, and, in reality they are not at all the same thing. Train a Border Collie to fetch a ball and it will tend to retrieve the ball time after time after time. Train a Siberian Husky to fetch a ball and it will do one of two things – either eat the ball, or bring it back once. The next time you throw it the sibe will look at you as if to say – “You threw it! YOU get it back! Do you think I’m that stupid?”

When you give a trained Border Collie a command, you usually get instant obedience. When you give a command to a Husky, the Husky actually thinks about it before deciding to comply or ignore the command. This may sound like bloody-mindedness, but it is in fact a deeply ingrained survival trait for arctic sled dogs. Think about it. You are the lead dog on a sled team pulling your Chukchi owner and his family across the frozen sea ice. Your owner shouts for you to turn right down a trail between a line of ice seracs as he knows this is the way to get to a safe camping area for the night. As lead dog, you can see that a right turn leads you to the edge of a deep crevasse and you refuse to make the turn. It is this intelligence and independence of thought which has been bred into Siberian Huskies over thousands of generations.

An example of this came from Leonhard Seppala’s famous lead dog (and hero of the 1925 Dipheria Run – Togo. One day, Seppala was running his team, led by Togo, over the sea ice of the notorious Norton Sound,



“Togo had been leading his sled across the sound during a northeastern gale on another occasion when, a few miles from shore, Seppala heard an ominous crack that let him know the sea ice was breaking up. Togo headed toward shore even before Seppala could give the command, but drew up short so fast he nearly flipped backwards. A yawning chasm of water had opened almost at Togo’s feet, but the dog had reacted quickly enough to avert immediate disaster. Seppala looked around and realized with dismay that he and his team were trapped on an ice floe and headed out to sea.

They spent more than twelve hours on that raft of ice, waiting as it drifted in the icy waters. Finally it neared land, but ran up against another floe that was jammed against the ice still connected to shore. they stopped moving, but there was still a five foot gap of water that Seppala couldn’t hope to cross. He tied a lead onto Togo and heaved the dog across the water. Togo landed on the ice and sensing what Seppala intended, the dog began pulling with all his might, narrowing the gap between the two ice floes. Then the lead rope snapped. Seppala thought he was a dead man. Then Togo, showing himself to be possessed of more intelligence and resourcefulness than most men could expect from even their lead dogs, leaped into the water and grabbed the broken end of the lead rope in his jaws. He clambered back onto the ice and continued pulling until he had narrowed the gap enough for Seppala and the sled to cross safely.”



As it was with Seppala’s Siberian dogs, so it is today with our Siberian Huskies. No matter how well trained your Sibe is, there is always a part of his/her mind that, when he/she hears an instruction thinks, "Is it a good idea to follow that order?" and also, "What's in it for me?" - When you combine that independence of thought and keen intelligence with the high prey drive, you can see that obedience when offlead is a very dodgy prospect indeed.



Huskies don’t help themselves in this regard. It is often found that husky puppies will act in extremely obedient ways for the first few months of their lives. I have lost count of the number of owners who have told me their Sibe is the exception that proves the rule and is ultra-obedient. Upon further discussion, it almost always transpires that the dog is a puppy – 4 or 5 months old! Sibe puppies can lull you into a false sense of security - then puberty hits, they realise that they don’t need you, and all bets are off!!!



We have been interested in Siberians for 20 years and have owned them for 17+. During that time we have personally come across at least one owner each year whose “highly trained” Sibe has "gone deaf" for the first and last time and ended up dead under a car, shot by a farmer for savaging livestock or having caused a major traffic accident. The common theme is that all these owners quite genuinely believed that they could train this trait out of their dogs; that their relationship with their dogs was so good that their dogs would always respond to the recall command; and that the recommendation of every husky related organisation IN THE WORLD was nonsense and that they and their dog were somehow special. Unfortunately, these owners learned the hard way with tragic consequences for themselves and their dogs. The plaintive, “He/She’s always come back before” is a common refrain in these tragic cases.
__________________

 

[misterjinglejay]

Stop me if you're bored
This is exactly the naive "I know better than every Siberian Husky organisation in the world" attitude which unfortunately leads to the deaths of too many Siberians each year. My wife is an expert dog trainer. I have seen her achieve things with Sibes (and other dogs) that I would have thought pretty near impossible. All our adult dogs have excellent recall and obedience and are often a source of amazement to people who regard sibes as untrainable. Yet neither she nor I would ever let our dogs off lead in an unsafe/unenclosed area because we know that their recall can never be 100% and they are much too precious for us to risk.



Having said all that, we believe strongly that all Siberian Husky owners should train their dogs in recall. We always recommend that people train their Siberians to recall IN SAFE ENCLOSED AREAS to as high a level as possible. Even in the best regulated worlds accidents sometimes happen – dogs slip their collars, snap their leads, escape from cages etc etc – and if you have trained your dog to recall, at least you have a chance of getting it back. Such training cannot be guaranteed, but at least it’s a form of insurance.





Talking about insurance – a message to all those who, despite all the evidence and arguments, still insist on letting their dogs go offlead in unenclosed areas – get some public liability insurance. If your dog goes offlead and causes an accident or kills livestock – YOU are liable. On second thoughts, maybe it’s not worth it! The fact that every single Siberian Husky organisation in the world advises against letting them off lead, the owner whose dog caused the crash or killed the livestock could be liable for huge damages, as in legal terms, it could be argued that by acting against such universal informed advice, they had been incredibly negligent in letting their dog off lead in an unenclosed area and that this obvious negligence would invalidate their insurance.

Just a thought!





Mick Brent

Dreamcatcher Siberian Huskies

The Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK)

 

[_jac_]

Excellent and very informative posts from husky owners, thank you!

 

[Dobiegirl]

Misterjay that was a fascinating read, I dont have a Husky or ever want one for all the reasons you list, beautiful dogs though and can see the appeal.

I do hope the op takes on board everything you have said otherwise they will lose their dog and possibley their wolf dog as well.

I think it was CC who said you cant put a square peg in a round hole and that sums it up very well.

 

[Red30563]

Misterjay that was a fascinating read, I dont have a Husky or ever want one for all the reasons you list, beautiful dogs though and can see the appeal.

^^^ This! Thank you for taking the time to post that, MisterJay.

 

[gunnergundog]

Brilliant posts Misterjay!

One thing I would add as an observer of the breed......as you say, many people think that THEIR sibe is going to be different; it will be the one with the perfect **** hot recall! These, IME, are often people who have young pups which lull them into a false sense of security. Let that pup become a teenager - as is the OP's dog at 12 months of age - and then the base instincts really kick in and recall goes out of the window. Velcro pup becomes bogoff dog, often with the inevitable consequences.

 

[misterjinglejay]

I cannot take credit for that, unfortunately - it was written by Mick Brent from the Siberian Husky Welfare. However with such a long piece there's much c&ping, and I think I deserve the credit for that

 

[eatmyshorts]

Excellent post. Anyone considering a husky as a pet would do well to read that.

OP you'd be wise to listen to experienced people who have learned from others mistakes to keep their dogs safe. I know many experienced husky owners and not a single one allows their dogs off leash unless in a very secure enclosed area. I believe it would be virtually impossible to "husky- proof" an entire yard and it's land. Quite frankly, if free roaming is the kind of life you want your dog to have, you have the wrong breed/s.

I'm not against ecollars as a last resort, in the right circumstances, and hands, but don't punish your dog with shocks for traits very well known within it's breed, that's just not fair. Would you consider it cruel to have a cat on the yard and then punish it for wandering off? Of course, because that's in it's nature, it's what cats do. Well, we know what huskies do, it's proven, documented, fact. There may be exceptions to every rule, but the risks to your girl when she runs off (taking your other dog with her) are very high. It won't be you who pays the price. Please do the responsible thing and provide a lifestyle and safe environment for her to live. Nobody here wants to say "I told you so".

 

[RCP Equestrian]

Wow that was a facinating read mj!

I am definitely going to seek pro help, although I'm not nieve and dont think twice about tying her up on a lunge line on the yard I just hate her crying whilst all the other dogs are roaming but like you have all said I would prefer her there than under a car!!

She was out for a couple of hours yesterday and never left me (wasnt by my side but stayed with me wherever I went) so she can be like that but again like you say its the unpredictability of the breed, one minute they're there the next they're gone!

She has improved a hell of a lot since being with us and like I say her straying has reduced a lot as well and I do believe this is down to her being spayed.

But, life for Laska will now be the lunge line however, I'm determined to secure the fencing and find someone to help me a bit more for recall tips and see how she goes. It only takes one time for her to het out and she could be killed so its only for her sake.

Thanks for all the tips guys, will put them in to practise once I'be Husky proofed my yard

 

[Goldenstar]

We have a freedom fence these are a good system for problem dogs provided you maintain it well check it regularily and train the dog properly.
The dog wears the collar as the collar gets close to the wire the bleeps as it gets closer to the wire it bleeps louder and faster until constant then it gives a shock ( you can vary the setting on the shock)
The training is easy I had my fence installed by the company and the installer took me through the training programme .the dogs learned fast it was only one that was naughty but I trained them all .
You just them out get on with working on the yard and know they are safe it's round all the fields so they have total freedom to roam on the place they love it and I know their ok .
It is expensive and you have to check and maintain the collars I never walk my dogs of the property over the wire they only go out in the car which helps to keep the training clear.
You would have to clip a square on the huskys neck to get contact with the unit.

 

[RCP Equestrian]

Thanks for that GS cant quote on my phone but thats exaxtly what I would be looking for for her. Can you send me details of the company please?

 

[Dry Rot]

Old age and experience has taught me the futility of getting into these discussions.

But if there are any sheep about, the problem of a straying dog will soon resolve itself.

It's lambing time and farmers often keep a gun in the car.

 

[RCP Equestrian]

Lucky theres no lambs round us....just houses! haha

 

[MurphysMinder]

An excellent piece from Sibe Welfare, thanks for sharing. I can only imagine their frustration when trying to get the message across to new owners.
I have seen freedom fences work for dogs, but would question whether they would so so for a husky, I imagine the drive as referred to in misterjays posts would be enough to carry them through the momentary shock as they pass through the fence. I think your plans for thoroughly reinforcing your fence, and keeping her on a lunge line when she is not in an enclosed area are probably best, as Dry Rot says, at lambing time farmers don't usually give dogs the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Goldenstar]

An excellent piece from Sibe Welfare, thanks for sharing. I can only imagine their frustration when trying to get the message across to new owners.
I have seen freedom fences work for dogs, but would question whether they would so so for a husky, I imagine the drive as referred to in misterjays posts would be enough to carry them through the momentary shock as they pass through the fence. I think your plans for thoroughly reinforcing your fence, and keeping her on a lunge line when she is not in an enclosed area are probably best, as Dry Rot says, at lambing time farmers don't usually give dogs the benefit of the doubt.

I think there's every chance it would work they are great for explorer type dogs that roam not ggod for dogs that chase so a dog actively chasing a rabbit might overun the fence but they are only as good as the disclpine you show in training them and maintaining the training and the collars.
OP I will pm you later with the details when I am at home.

 

[RCP Equestrian]

Thanks GS!

Had her out with me this morning and took them all round the fields and threw their stick for them. She stayed with us the whole time and just played with the others and came back when asked. Even stopped off for a cuddle in the middle of the field which she would have never done before!

Although MJs post was very good and accurate I really dont find her to be prey driven at all, the wolf very much so! Haha. Hence why I think she would benefit from the fencing and collar just to eliminate the temptation, if she knows she cant get out she doesnt bother and just plays with the others in the field.

Fingers crossed

 

[misterjinglejay]

I have to say, I agree with MM on the freedom fences. Bear in mind, that sibes/mals tend to chase, even if it is only rabbits in their heads - the adrenaline is still there, and that's what they run on, and thus, won't notice any 'zap', noise etc. I haven't read one case where the freedom fence was successful with a sibe, some even ending in disaster, where the owner relied on the FF.

 

[misterjinglejay]

It's up to you, obviously, RCP, but it will only happen the once

 

[galaxy]

OP you'd be wise to listen to experienced people who have learned from others mistakes to keep their dogs safe. I know many experienced husky owners and not a single one allows their dogs off leash unless in a very secure enclosed area. I believe it would be virtually impossible to "husky- proof" an entire yard and it's land. Quite frankly, if free roaming is the kind of life you want your dog to have, you have the wrong breed/s.

I'm not against ecollars as a last resort, in the right circumstances, and hands, but don't punish your dog with shocks for traits very well known within it's breed, that's just not fair. Would you consider it cruel to have a cat on the yard and then punish it for wandering off? Of course, because that's in it's nature, it's what cats do. Well, we know what huskies do, it's proven, documented, fact. There may be exceptions to every rule, but the risks to your girl when she runs off (taking your other dog with her) are very high. It won't be you who pays the price. Please do the responsible thing and provide a lifestyle and safe environment for her to live. Nobody here wants to say "I told you so".

These are the thoughts I've been having as I read this thread. I just didn't know how to word it. I hope people really think about what EMS has written here.

In terms of the freedom fence I have written this before. A friend of mine has one on her land. It has failed several times and has resulted in the death of one dog. They have their place, but do not idley rely on it. It needs checking CONSTANTLY that there is not a fault in the wire (from a wild animal breaking it for example) or the collar has not stopped working. From what I have seen I don't think I would ever feel comfortable trusting it fully.

 

[huskydamage]

Proud owner of a 3 year old husky x mal, I can definately vouch that they have a crap recall!
I know the off/on lead debate for huskies is a bit of a controversial thing, but heres my story/words of caution anyway...
When I first got my puppy I thought I knew better, even though everyone told me huskies are on lead dogs. Until he was a year and a half old, I rarely had him on a lead and he was pretty good, if he ever got distracted I used to turn and run away and he would chase after me. One day he legged it off into a field with livestock in, (I didn't know they were there as hidden by trees) and chased them. Luckily he did not harm any, but he only stopped because I ran up and grabbed him. I have never let him off lead again.
There is reason people say to keep huskys on lead, they are too unreliable! I found out the hard way! and if the dog's prey drive is high, you have no chance! Much safer to be on lead, then running across a road or getting shot by a farmer, my boy is too precious to me to risk.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Having looked into the tear-filled eyes if a devastated husky owner while he told me of how a farmer dragged his dog off & blew her head off (even when she had not been worrying sheep - she was just loose on his land - actually through no fault of this owner personally, the dog was not in his care at the time it got loose) i have to say i really really really hate it when "pet owners" think they know better, that their dog has faultless recall, low prey drive etc etc. This breed in full flight or chase mode will not be logically thinking about training once the adrenalin is pumping. A younger dog may be okay & come back, but as they get older years of inherited genes start to kick in. You will only learn this lesson once, you will have other chances, your dog will not. If you have a sibe (husky) build an escape proof run, maintain it well, & give your dog appropriate regular exercise. You will never actually know if you've saved it's life - but that's better than knowing that you didn't.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Excellent post ems (and I don't even have sibes!).

 

[misterjinglejay]

Having looked into the tear-filled eyes if a devastated husky owner while he told me of how a farmer dragged his dog off & blew her head off (even when she had not been worrying sheep - she was just loose on his land - actually through no fault of this owner personally, the dog was not in his care at the time it got loose) i have to say i really really really hate it when "pet owners" think they know better, that their dog has faultless recall, low prey drive etc etc. This breed in full flight or chase mode will not be logically thinking about training once the adrenalin is pumping. A younger dog may be okay & come back, but as they get older years of inherited genes start to kick in. You will only learn this lesson once, you will have other chances, your dog will not. If you have a sibe (husky) build an escape proof run, maintain it well, & give your dog appropriate regular exercise. You will never actually know if you've saved it's life - but that's better than knowing that you didn't.

Well said!

 

[blackcob]

Our neighbour lost one a few years ago, hit by a truck after he took off after a rabbit and kept going for miles. She still finds it hard to speak about him. I was horrified to find that she's started letting her existing one off again. He's 7 and has never given her reason to doubt his recall but neither did the other one until the day he died.

The difference is that she doesn't work her dogs and feels obliged to let them off to give them enough exercise but there are so many alternatives available that are more fulfilling for the nature of the dog.

My sibe was going to be different, the one that recalled perfectly and did everything I asked at the click of my fingers. She soon showed me. It was arrogant of me to think I could override thousands of years of selective breeding for traits that are pretty incompatible with being a pet dog.

What I needed was a border collie, what I got was a delinquent wolf. I live with the consequences but as well as the restrictions it's also turned out to be a lot more exciting and adventurous.

 

[*hic*]

Lucky theres no lambs round us....just houses! haha

haha indeed. It was about this time last year that a husky and wolfdog escaped near where I used to live. After ripping up a young cat in front of its owner they carried on roaming and one ended up in my sheep, wounding, maiming and killing.

They had been out before plenty of times but no-one had reported it to the police. The nuisance that they caused in the times they were just out "playing" was instrumental in the severity of the sentence given to the owners. It was the dogs who paid the ultimate price for the owners' stupidity though, they were both killed.

FWIW, the dogs mentioned above had caused many small incidents that no-one had thought much of - running across the roads and knocking a cyclist off, causing cars to do emergency stops, killing chickens, ducks and rabbits, getting in peoples' gardens and chasing cats and small dogs through cat/dog flaps, hassling people walking other dogs (one 10 yo girl walking a chihuahua was rescued when the dogs went for it because as she lifted it over her head to get it away the escapees were jumping up and snapping at it, luckily some adults heard the commotion and beat the dogs off), chasing people on horses. Once it was known that the police were prepared to take action against the owners all these tales came out of the woodwork. You may think that your dogs haven't caused any trouble but if there are houses and people around the inhabitants may well not feel the same.

Of course, your dogs, your choice.

 

[blackcob]

MM, forgot to say, will find out more about job tomorrow. Our vet is going to do some prodding for me, he said they still haven't hired anyone and he will find out what's going on, as a partner I hope he has some influence over the decision. Final x-rays tomorrow morning, will do an update when she's home.