To Bute or not to Bute?

Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls

Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls

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I am not wanting to take over another thread about soundness etc. on another thread as this isn't really appropriate there and could derail someone else's thread. I do realise it could become a bit of biscuit flavoured hot potato post, but can we give it a go to discuss peacefully do you think? ;)

Out of interest and also curiosity to know what you feel is ethical and what isn't, do you or have you ever Buted an unsound horse to ride? Can you say how unsound the horse was and other factors to be considered, i.e age, type of use etc.

I am not talking about Buting an older or unsound horse to keep them sound enough to enjoy happy retirement, but purely to enable them still to be ridden or driven. If you haven't, would you at any point and what would be your rationale to justify that?
 
I have been advised by a respected vet to give low level bute (1 sachet for 16hh + horse per day) with low grade hock arthritis (fully diagnosed with xrays) to enable him to be exercised.
The logic being that better quality muscle will help joint stability and that full retirement would make the hock pain worse.
The option of magic-ing away the arthritis isn't there and bute helps make the best of a poor situation.

I personally take ibuprofen a couple of times a day most days - I think I'm better for that than doing nothing in bed all day.

I know another vet who recommended similar for older (22+) horse that had a number of old injuries.
 
Polos Mum said:
I have been advised by a respected vet to give low level bute (1 sachet for 16hh + horse per day) with low grade hock arthritis (fully diagnosed with xrays) to enable him to be exercised.
The logic being that better quality muscle will help joint stability and that full retirement would make the hock pain worse.
The option of magic-ing away the arthritis isn't there and bute helps make the best of a poor situation.

I personally take ibuprofen a couple of times a day most days - I think I'm better for that than doing nothing in bed all day.

I know another vet who recommended similar for older (22+) horse that had a number of old injuries.
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I agree with this sentiment above also, in as much as I have 2 vertebrae fused and although the op was "successful" I'm never 100% pain free, moreso in the cold and damp. I pop ibuprofen too on the worst days and this enables me to keep riding, doing pilates and walking miles all of which in term helps my back. I understand the moral dilemma of this for animals so I guess it comes down to the level of unsoundess and whether you think he enjoys his work?

I know you didnt ask but coblet has half a sachet of danilon/day which keeps him more comfortably retired.
 
I have in the short term. Bute and cartrophen to support initial rehab for slipping stifle and likely but unconfirmed early hock arthritis. It is likely that the cartrophen will be a long term thing, and I did have a friend question the ethics of it, it is still a anti-inflammatory even if not a typical "pain killer". I never questioned it for a second before she brought it up tbh, if it keeps the horse comfortable then it is a good thing.

But I am not (and she isn't either) buting the horse up for a yeehah, it is with the intention that it keeps her comfortable enough to do the level of work she needs to improve/ maintain long term soundness. She is 10, has a weird history, poor conformation and won't be asked to do anything she says no to. She is a happier horse for it, in work and in her own free time!

Whacking bute into a lame horse so you can do a fun ride without being called up on it is on another end of the spectrum but there is a wide gulf of circumstances in between I guess. Is it for the benefit of the horse or is it so you can continue to use the horse.
 
I would bute to enable a horse to stay in low-level work as I believe (and have been advised by my vet in conversation) that it is much better for horses to keep working as long as they can comfortably do so. The movement and muscle tone they keep helps to support the joints and generally keeps them in better shape. Same vet also advised that of the horses she see's they almost all go downhill soundness and physically condition wise once the owner decides to retire them completely and when the question is raised with owners of old horses she usually advises to keep the horse in some sort of work as long as they are happy doing so.

For me though that would be hacking, low-level dressage and the odd farm-ride if the horse enjoys that sort of thing. I would not personally bute a horse to continue at any reasonable level of competition or to enable me to jump it.

Saying that, I know you didn't ask, but I would (and do) happily medicate joints to enable a horse to keep competing, but that is a different discussion!
 
Kia had Bute for years for his neck and hock arthritis. He got one a day and I rode him. We didn’t compete or jump etc but we had a lot of fun doing pleasure rides and common rides and just hacking wherever we wanted.

He was happy and whether he was ridden or not the one Bute a day helped his arthritis. I wouldn’t compete a horse on painkillers however even UA.
 
I appreciate you’re asking a question about morality/ethics but the question is somewhat binary and assumes that the pain relief is given purely for the rider to benefit. Sometimes the interests of the horse and rider/owner can be one and the same. It’s not just buting a horse to enable riding for rider benefit, it’s also to keep the horse fit and muscled and as such even more pain free than just from the bute.

If this then means the horse is comfortable enough to do more than hacking, even hunting, fun rides etc - does that actually matter from a moral standpoint if s/he is comfortable and also enjoys them? As a human able to make that choice for myself I’d definitely take low level medication to do something I enjoy.

Totally agree with those other posters and vets that being in work is better in a myriad of ways, and sometimes that needs a little (medical) help for their overall benefit. I wouldn’t feel guilty that it then means I can continue to enjoy riding them.
 
Polos Mum said:
I have been advised by a respected vet to give low level bute (1 sachet for 16hh + horse per day) with low grade hock arthritis (fully diagnosed with xrays) to enable him to be exercised.
The logic being that better quality muscle will help joint stability and that full retirement would make the hock pain worse.
The option of magic-ing away the arthritis isn't there and bute helps make the best of a poor situation.
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Exactly the same situation here. Mine has regular steroid jabs but sometimes, for whatever reason, he needs a bit more help. Then I give him Bute. If I completely stopped riding him I think he'd lose muscle and get fat pretty quickly, and that's not a great plan on arthritic legs.

I am more careful what I do with him now, I get off and walk him down steep hills and I'm going to stop using him to lead faster rides because he doesn't seem to enjoy it any more. He will still have a blast sometimes but it has to be if he feels like it, which is fine.

So yes I use pain relief so he can be ridden, but it's in the context of an ongoing conversation between us - if I ever start to feel like the riding we're doing is causing him distress, I'll stop.
 
I have. Not routinely but I definitely don’t rule it out. It’s a judgement call based on why a particular horse is unsound, is keeping them muscularly strong through work important for their functioning but most importantly do they enjoy being ridden. The latter is open to interpretation/abuse but I honestly think some horses are happier and have a better QoL ridden on some Bute.
 
How lame is lame, whats caused it and does the work make the cause worse, or help overall if they're comfortable enough to do it? I have 2 ponies that get regular low level bute to enable them to be ridden more comfortably with their arthritis but also to keep them more comfy in the field, especially in the cold. I wouldn't, however, bute a horse with an injury/problem that would be made worse by hoolying about or working (eg suspensory problem) unless it was as palliative care.
 
I have not. And although I understand the arguments for it, it doesn't sit easy with me.
No horse HAS to be ridden, so buting to be able to continue to ride just doesn't sit right with me. I have nothing against those that do, and may well find myself in that position in the future, so not ruling it out. But I'm just not sure....not as a long term thing to keep a horse ridden for longer.

When shambles was originally diagnosed with suspensory issues and neck arthritis I turned him away rather then treating him. After 9 months of dr green he came back great. Over the next few years he was diagnosed with hock arthritis and lateral processes. We did do a short course of Bute alongside the initial steroids into his hocks. This was rather short lived. I did then use cartrophen for a year (having massively reduced his work). When he told me he wasn't happy being ridden (walked away when bringing out his saddle, and lost a bit of spark) I stopped riding and retired him. Vet didn't try talking me in to trying any treatment, but I'm sure bute would have been an option. He was 15 at the time.
He now loves out and is loving his retirement, and shows no signs of any issues, he's perfectly sound.
I don't for a minute wish I had tried to keep him going with Bute. He always appeared to love being ridden, until he didn't. But he's so happy now with his little herd, I have no regrets.

It's an interesting one, and I've had this conversation with several people, all with different thoughts.
 
I never have. I totally understand and appreciate the point of keeping a horse on low level bute to keep it moving enough to build supportive muscle etc, and I dont disagree with it, but on a purely personally I wouldnt feel comfortable doing it. For me, if the horse needs bute to be ridden then its time to call it a day and let the horse retire from ridden work, I am however, perfectly happy to keep a retired horse on low level bute to keep it comfortable in its retirement.
 
I've liked everyone replies, as I have a 15 yr old going to the vets Monday for a work up. I think its arthritis so possible joint injections?
she has been on one bute a day while waiting for the appointment and I don't think she looks any better for it

I don't think I'd expect a lot of hard work from a medicated horse
 
Interesting we are all very different and I agree it is a difficult one to be sure if it is right or wrong. Depending on so many factors.

I have often heard it is better to Bute and keep them moving, which I guess has some truth to it. I always have been fortunate to retire mine to large areas of pasture and their natural grazing habits do tend to keep them moving naturally anyway, so that would not be a reason for me personally.

I have never Buted to ride and never would, but that is what sits easy with me and the horses I have been lucky enough to own. I do not use my choices to criticize those who do, unless it is a horse that is obviously extremely unsound and still showing discomfort when worked of course.

I was just surprised to read that quite a large section of owners do seem more than happy to use Bute to prolong their riding, perhaps I have been too cautious over the years.
 
I was told by my vet (many years ago) that my jumping pony turned driving pony would be happier pain free on a sachet of bute a day continuing to gently potter around the Forest doing what he enjoyed than getting fat (and in pain from arthritis) stuck in his field bored. So we did, he was and I would do again. Given my age and pain level I now live with its me who needs the bute and the ponies who are fit and well 🤣
 
New Forests Rock said:
I was told by my vet (many years ago) that my jumping pony turned driving pony would be happier pain free on a sachet of bute a day continuing to gently potter around the Forest doing what he enjoyed than getting fat (and in pain from arthritis) stuck in his field bored. So we did, he was and I would do again. Given my age and pain level I now live with its me who needs the bute and the ponies who are fit and well 🤣
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Yep I'm all Buted up too! 😅 But nobody is expecting me to work the same as I did ten years ago, I am out at grass and will probably be shot when I start to look a bit too sick and sorry for myself.😂
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
Yep I'm all Buted up too! 😅 But nobody is expecting me to work the same as I did ten years ago, I am out at grass and will probably be shot when I start to look a bit too sick and sorry for myself.😂
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Yes, I bute myself up so I can ride.

Btw Many years ago before it was barred for humans I remember having it and thinking how well it worked.
 
My mare was 25 and I used to hack 6 days a week, I felt she wasn’t quite right one day when I walked round the yard so told my friend to go and I would just do a quiet half an hour locally, I started out and after 5 mins knew she wasn’t right , I decided then to stop riding her and never considered giving her bute to mask it… she had cushings and I wanted to see immediately if she wasn’t right in the field as I was worried about laminitis. She had 6 months out and had just become a little pottery so PTS just before the weather turned cold and wet. Her cushings was out of control on 4 prascend daily and my vet thought she was close to laminitis… I’ve never regretted that decision although I still miss her
 
I could probably bring Saus back into work because her hocks appear to be fused for the most part, and she’s completely pain-free on 1 Bute a day.

However, I would always be worried that I was pushing her too far, and I have a fit and healthy ridden horse, so I see no reason to drag a happy Saus out of retirement. She’s not bored either because there’s always a lot to look at in the field, and I do a bit of occasional groundwork with her, which she likes.
 
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I bute mine for his arthritis as he needs to get movement in to help the arthritis. It doesnt mean it go careening around the forest or even school (if i do go into the school it is mostly for walk/pole type work either on the ground or ridden). I dont have a problem with this or others doing it. My opinion changes if the horse is buted to go and gallop it around or jump it when it shouldnt be doing any of those things
 
HaplessHorse said:
I could probably bring Saus back into work because her hocks appear to be fused for the most part, and she’s completely pain-free on 1 Bute a day.

However, I would always be worried that I was pushing her too far, and I have a fit and healthy ridden horse, so I see no reason to drag a happy Saus out of retirement. She’s not bored either because there’s always a lot to look at in the field, and I do a bit of occasional groundwork with her, which she likes.
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I have learned to listen carefully and look at the tension. I also really buy into not pushing them forward but letting them operate at their own pace. It took a while and every so often I catch myself still trying to push mine on as we are taught at an early stage to do. But by pushing them forward you are only asking for more compensatory patterns and tension.
 
I buted a horse with hock arthritis with about 1/2 sachet a day in order to be able to ride him as a teenager.

He’d have had it regardless of if he were doing the ridden work or not and he did far better overall and had less “stiff” days if he was in regular work maintaining good muscle and moving more than he would have done if he hadn’t been in work. (Also due to the joints involved the hope was the arthritic bits would fuse with work but we needed to do the work to try and get the fusion which meant he had to be comfortable enough to work)

Obviously if I had the same horse again now we might take a different approach to medicating him / specifically targeting his hocks and using other supportive treatments (although he was on a relatively high spec joint supplement as well) but this was a little under 20 years ago and we did the best we could at the time.

He loved being busy and doing things and sadly massively deteriorated when I did have to retire him and ended up being PTS.

My own controversial take is that a horse who would need some pain relief to be comfortable in light work would likely still benefit from having that same pain relief even if their owner opts to retire them.
 
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Boulty said:
I buted a horse with hock arthritis with about 1/2 sachet a day in order to be able to ride him as a teenager.

He’d have had it regardless of if he were doing the ridden work or not and he did far better overall and had less “stiff” days if he was in regular work maintaining good muscle and moving more than he would have done if he hadn’t been in work. (Also due to the joints involved the hope was the arthritic bits would fuse with work but we needed to do the work to try and get the fusion which meant he had to be comfortable enough to work)

Obviously if I had the same horse again now we might take a different approach to medicating him / specifically targeting his hocks and using other supportive treatments (although he was on a relatively high spec joint supplement as well) but this was a little under 20 years ago and we did the best we could at the time.

He loved being busy and doing things and sadly massively deteriorated when I did have to retire him and ended up being PTS.

My own controversial take is that a horse who would need some pain relief to be comfortable in light work would likely still benefit from having that same pain relief even if their owner opts to retire them.
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I have absolutely no issue with buting horses to remain as comfortable and pain free as possible when retired. I have done so many times and only taken decision to PTS those particular horses when the level of Bute required becomes a welfare issue in its own right if that makes sense.
 
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