To get a professional showjumper to jump Dizz - is the LOU worth it...

MrsMozartletoe

MrsMozartletoe

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Having a think re. the Dizz and the LOU...

Spoke to a professional showjumper today; he sounded very nice :). Was okay with what I told him about the Dizz and our situation :).

However....

He would want Dizz at his place 'for a few weeks', he would not compete her from our yard.

Whilst I can understand his thinking, I'm not sure I can cope with Dizz being away for that long :(. I thought it would be a week whilst he got to know her, but not much longer than that; V could have kept her ticking over, even if that was just exercise, we could have taken Dizz to his for jump work.

Anyhoo, it has made me think about what I want to do with Dizz. Whilst the loss of use is worth a few thousand pounds or so, sending Dizz to this chap will cost in the region of £1500, including show fees, transport, etc. so that's going to knock down the final figure.

The thing that's really bugging me though, is that if Dizz stays there, she'll be forming a bond with with the chap. And what if something goes wrong? This guy comes highly recommended, so I'm not expecting any issues per se.

The question one has to ask oneself, is: is the LOU worth it? If I hadn't whalloped my head last year, I'd have been competing on Dizz this year, okay it would have been the low level stuff, but still, something.

I'm going to call the insurance company tomorrow to find out if it has to be a BS track of say 1.20 that Dizz has to be able to jump, or can it be simply a track we put up in keeping with BS standards. I think we would have to do it a few times.

How long does it take to get a horse to jumping those size tracks? Dizz used to jump over three feet quite happily before I got her, though had only jumped a few times. D1 can jump heights okay and rides the Dizz well, but she has limited track experience.

Ho hum. Don't know what to do.
 
I am a bit confused! You won't be able to claim LOU if you are still jumping the horse and certainly not if you have sent her away for training/riding with a professional.

I am not sure why you feel the need to send her away and have someone else jump her when I thought you said you daughter could/wanted to? Maybe I have got confused with this one but, if the horse was only jumping 3ft courses before you got her I don't really see the benefit of sending her away to someone to jump these sorts of heights as surely your daughter could do that?

What is the urgency to have her jumping bigger tracks?

As far as your insurance is concerned I doubt you'll be able to claim LOU at all if your horse can still jump to any degree but that's down to the individual insurer and what their policy states.
 
LOU has to be claimed by the end of December this year, if I'm going to do it.

D1 can jump the height and wants to, but she is not experienced at riding BS tracks.

Dizz has jumped in excess of three feet, but as one or two jumps, not a full course.

Insurance has said they will pay if Dizz can jump low level as that is not what I bought her for, I bought her to move up the ranks of BS. We had a long conversation about it at the end of last year.

The idea of using a professional was to give her the best chance in the hands of someone experienced. I don't want to 'send her away', which is part of the cons in my musings.
 
You don't need to work the horse to find out if it will break down, you only have to get the vet to support that the horse is unlikely to stand up to SJ.

Or, pay a lower level pro just to meet you at shows. It's about £15 - £20 quid round here. :)
 
The pro most likely wants her with him so he can work her daily & take her out jumping perhaps acouple of times a week. This way he will progress her more quickly up the levels & be able to give you the answer you want. As an example my 5 year old jumped her first BN yesterday, 4 shows & 4 weeks ago she was jumping unafil 80cm, this is why my coach suggested I have a pro to jump her for a short time to build her confidence & experience. For me I would go with the pro, IME you will get a far better result if you give him the whole job rather than faffing about trying to do some yourself. Best of luck with whatever you decide. Also, as a suggestion, why not go to some BS shows with daughter & walk the course, you may find the BN & Disco are not as hard as you imagine.
 
MrsMozart said:
LOU has to be claimed by the end of December this year, if I'm going to do it.

D1 can jump the height and wants to, but she is not experienced at riding BS tracks.
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BS is easier than unaff - stridings are all correct, nicer atmosphere, more inviting course. At least that's my experience and it's been backed up by others. You just need to practice courses at BN/Disco height at home, then go out, keep a good canter, and the jumps will just come to you. A pro will get Dizz jumping higher, faster, but you could give daughter a few goes then see how things are going before deciding.
 
Flame_ said:
You don't need to work the horse to find out if it will break down, you only have to get the vet to support that the horse is unlikely to stand up to SJ.

Or, pay a lower level pro just to meet you at shows. It's about £15 - £20 quid round here. :)
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There's the rub, the vets can't until we try. It's not a cut and dried one in this instance.

Good point about the other pros... Will ask around and contemplate. Thank you :D
 
mystiandsunny said:
BS is easier than unaff - stridings are all correct, nicer atmosphere, more inviting course. At least that's my experience and it's been backed up by others. You just need to practice courses at BN/Disco height at home, then go out, keep a good canter, and the jumps will just come to you. A pro will get Dizz jumping higher, faster, but you could give daughter a few goes then see how things are going before deciding.
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I agree that they are better built courses but the oxers are much wider I have found with BS and they are more up to height but are strided properly.

I wouldnt want to send the Dizz to anybody else if I were you, it has took you a long time to settle her and trust you and I think from what I have read it would upskittle her a bit.
The other thing that would worry me is that you are used to knowing the Dizz inside and out and recognise immediately when things are not right, would this professional realise this?

Like somebody else suggested you could find a rider that meets you at a show and competes her, your daughter sounds very capable to do the work to get her prepared.

One thing I am unclear about is are you seeing if she stays sound at 1.20 plus courses?
 
kizzywiz said:
The pro most likely wants her with him so he can work her daily & take her out jumping perhaps acouple of times a week. This way he will progress her more quickly up the levels & be able to give you the answer you want. As an example my 5 year old jumped her first BN yesterday, 4 shows & 4 weeks ago she was jumping unafil 80cm, this is why my coach suggested I have a pro to jump her for a short time to build her confidence & experience. For me I would go with the pro, IME you will get a far better result if you give him the whole job rather than faffing about trying to do some yourself. Best of luck with whatever you decide. Also, as a suggestion, why not go to some BS shows with daughter & walk the course, you may find the BN & Disco are not as hard as you imagine.
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Thank you KW. Very good points indeed :D. I can understand the pro's point of view, I just don't want Dizz away for that long; not saying it's not right for others, I'm just not sure if it's right for us now.

Sounds like your girl is doing well :D
 
mystiandsunny said:
BS is easier than unaff - stridings are all correct, nicer atmosphere, more inviting course. At least that's my experience and it's been backed up by others. You just need to practice courses at BN/Disco height at home, then go out, keep a good canter, and the jumps will just come to you. A pro will get Dizz jumping higher, faster, but you could give daughter a few goes then see how things are going before deciding.
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Again, good points. Thank you :)

I'd heard that BS tracks are better balanced, etc., which is part of the reason I would like Dizz to work them.
 
Totally off subject Mrs M but hows the back doing? Did you have any more thoughts about your future job/career prospects? Just wondering.
 
Mrs_Wishkabibble said:
I agree that they are better built courses but the oxers are much wider I have found with BS and they are more up to height but are strided properly.

I wouldnt want to send the Dizz to anybody else if I were you, it has took you a long time to settle her and trust you and I think from what I have read it would upskittle her a bit.
The other thing that would worry me is that you are used to knowing the Dizz inside and out and recognise immediately when things are not right, would this professional realise this?

Like somebody else suggested you could find a rider that meets you at a show and competes her, your daughter sounds very capable to do the work to get her prepared.

One thing I am unclear about is are you seeing if she stays sound at 1.20 plus courses?
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You are hitting various nails on the head!

I'm so glad I posted this. I was a bit uncertain as to what response it would get, but wanted guidance/knowledge from others in areas I'm not so experienced in (so long ago it really doesn't count).

I would want to either me or D1 to watch the jump practice, because we know her so well. We want to see if there is a point that she says 'no thank you', because that will be the point that we know she's not going to do it. I want to know without breaking her!

We do have a good bond. Today we played together in the field, which was amazing :D. I am loath to do anything to break it.

Not so much to see if she stays sound, though that plays a part, but to see if she is physically comfortable jumping those heights for a full track.
 
Izzwizz said:
Totally off subject Mrs M but hows the back doing? Did you have any more thoughts about your future job/career prospects? Just wondering.
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Ta hun :)

Back is much improved ta, as is the cold :D. The niggles are getting less on all counts. Check up is this coming Wednesday.

The Future! The Game Plan is expanding nicely :D. Lots of thoughts and ideas being written down - once finished it will be a case of look at what is in the realms of possibility and go from there, in terms of training, timing, financials, etc. :D

Thank you for asking :)
 
Well good luck with whatever you decide to do. What will be will be is my motto. Glad your feeling better.

Anyway will let the post get back to the original question. No advice to offer here Im afraid, jumping scares me! x
 
Originally Posted by Flame_
You don't need to work the horse to find out if it will break down, you only have to get the vet to support that the horse is unlikely to stand up to SJ.


MrsMozart said:
There's the rub, the vets can't until we try. It's not a cut and dried one in this instance.

:D
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Sorry I still don't understand, are you saying the vets won't know if she can jump until she breaks down and proves that she can't? I certainly wouldn't want to risk it!



ETA Sorry, I've just read your post above! I'd still be very wary.
 
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Why dont you advertise for a rider who will exercise her in the week at home for you also or pay for intensive jumping lessons for D1??
 
Hi Mrs M. I know time is pressured but as you are asking for opinions...:D I have always had opinions:D If she was mine I would get D1 to carry on. I have no idea about exact figures re LOU/what you paid etc etc but I can make an educated guess and I really think you should keep her at home. I know how much you love her and I remember when you lost your other girlie. I have recently lost our lovely lad and am so glad we kept him as long as we did. We managed this through not pushing him too far too fast.

You and D1 would know immediately when to stop. I do not believe anyone else would have that inituition and professional riders can be intimidating even to the more mature amongst us:cool:
Please do not take this as any critiscism (spelling?!) but I would hate to see a post from you saying "I wish I had never done that" - and that is always possible in this situation.

Like I say - my opinion - but you asked :D Good luck whatever. x
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Originally Posted by Flame_
You don't need to work the horse to find out if it will break down, you only have to get the vet to support that the horse is unlikely to stand up to SJ.




Sorry I still don't understand, are you saying the vets won't know if she can jump until she breaks down and proves that she can't? I certainly wouldn't want to risk it!



ETA Sorry, I've just read your post above! I'd still be very wary.
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Yes, I am very wary. It was someone else, who I respect and trust, who suggested the pro route. Not having done it before, I needed more information and knowledge on the whole before I could make a decision.

Ta hun.
 
LoU does not really work like this - when you insured her, did you not specify the BS level you were aiming at? I know my horse is insured for eventing at a minimum of PN level. If I had to claim LoU I would need a vet to say that he could not do that for X/Y/Z reason. The insurance would then either accept that and get a loss adjuster to ring me to determine how much they would pay me, or they would get an assessment done by their own vet.

If your vet is saying that there is no way of knowing whether she will stand up to the work or not, then you can't claim LoU.

In your shoes I would do the following:
1. Get a second opinion from another vet, probably verbally, to see if it is worth them seeing the horse (no idea where you've been with Dizz so no idea if this is worth doing or not - if she's been anywhere near any of the top referral practices then in probably isn't!).

2. Discuss the LoU with your insurance company and double check it runs out when your current claim runs out - you may have already done this - but you need to be certain because if there is a chance that you could claim LoU after December, then that would take the pressure off.

3. Have a serious think about what you want from this horse. Essentially if you want to claim LoU by December you have to break her (and then rehab her if possible so she is more than a field ornament, though you may not be able to do this). So does it make sense to do this, or is it possible that it may take you/D1 some time to build up to BS, time in which you could be having fun on this horse? If that is the case (rather than the situation of you and the horse having been ready now to go out and do BS), then why not keep going until December as you are, then when the insurance 'runs out' on this claim, drop the LoU, drop her value down to the bare minimum so it costs you a whole lot less and she is only covered for vets fees, then put the money you save into a 'replacing Dizz' pot - which you add to and then when/if she hits the LoU stage, you effectively have that cash there and waiting to do whatever you would have done with it had you got it (and a broken horse) by December.

Dunno if that makes sense - but in your shoes, the only way I could see it being worth getting a final answer straight away is if you are ready to do BS now - which from your posts neither you/D1 or Dizz are.....
 
misst said:
Hi Mrs M. I know time is pressured but as you are asking for opinions...:D I have always had opinions:D If she was mine I would get D1 to carry on. I have no idea about exact figures re LOU/what you paid etc etc but I can make an educated guess and I really think you should keep her at home. I know how much you love her and I remember when you lost your other girlie. I have recently lost our lovely lad and am so glad we kept him as long as we did. We managed this through not pushing him too far too fast.

You and D1 would know immediately when to stop. I do not believe anyone else would have that inituition and professional riders can be intimidating even to the more mature amongst us:cool:
Please do not take this as any critiscism (spelling?!) but I would hate to see a post from you saying "I wish I had never done that" - and that is always possible in this situation.

Like I say - my opinion - but you asked :D Good luck whatever. x
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I think you're right. It was out of left wing, the suggestion of a pro riding her, but I'm always open to considering suggestions :), just have to get all points so's I can make a decision that's right for the Dizz and me.

Your opinion is welcome, thank you :)
 
Just to add some thoughts:
- I know you don't get a lot back from LOU for mares, as they can still breed.
- She'd have to actually be significantly lame to claim LOU, and you can't guarantee she'd come sound again.
- Many horses will never jump 1m20 tracks, not because they have injuries, but because they simply don't have the scope. It's one thing to clear 1m20 as an upright, quite another when it's an oxer that is also 1m20 wide, and there are a whole course of them.
- You mentioned elsewhere on here that if she could only hack for ever you wouldn't mind, as you love her. Do you really want to do this, knowing that she should probably have a quieter life to stay sound? Is the quantity of money (not assured even if she does go lame, as insurance companies are really funny about LOU), big enough to risk this?
 
Soz, don't know what LOU is :p

However, I do think that sometimes it's a good thing to get a "pro" on the back of the horse that has loads of experience of loads of horses and isn't emotionally attached.

My silly horse would be a total nutcase by now if I didn't have OH to train him. OH just knows when a bit of force is necessary and when a sugar is. Annoyingly now, Small Horse goes to him for cuddles before me because he has more respect for OH :rolleyes:

I just hand out sugar coz I'm stoopid :D
 
SpottedCat said:
LoU does not really work like this - when you insured her, did you not specify the BS level you were aiming at? I know my horse is insured for eventing at a minimum of PN level. If I had to claim LoU I would need a vet to say that he could not do that for X/Y/Z reason. The insurance would then either accept that and get a loss adjuster to ring me to determine how much they would pay me, or they would get an assessment done by their own vet.

If your vet is saying that there is no way of knowing whether she will stand up to the work or not, then you can't claim LoU.

In your shoes I would do the following:
1. Get a second opinion from another vet, probably verbally, to see if it is worth them seeing the horse (no idea where you've been with Dizz so no idea if this is worth doing or not - if she's been anywhere near any of the top referral practices then in probably isn't!).

2. Discuss the LoU with your insurance company and double check it runs out when your current claim runs out - you may have already done this - but you need to be certain because if there is a chance that you could claim LoU after December, then that would take the pressure off.

3. Have a serious think about what you want from this horse. Essentially if you want to claim LoU by December you have to break her (and then rehab her if possible so she is more than a field ornament, though you may not be able to do this). So does it make sense to do this, or is it possible that it may take you/D1 some time to build up to BS, time in which you could be having fun on this horse? If that is the case (rather than the situation of you and the horse having been ready now to go out and do BS), then why not keep going until December as you are, then when the insurance 'runs out' on this claim, drop the LoU, drop her value down to the bare minimum so it costs you a whole lot less and she is only covered for vets fees, then put the money you save into a 'replacing Dizz' pot - which you add to and then when/if she hits the LoU stage, you effectively have that cash there and waiting to do whatever you would have done with it had you got it (and a broken horse) by December.

Dunno if that makes sense - but in your shoes, the only way I could see it being worth getting a final answer straight away is if you are ready to do BS now - which from your posts neither you/D1 or Dizz are.....
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I haven't claimed LOU before, so can only go by what the insurance company told me last year, which is as I've explained it on here. Dizz's pelvis issue is not cut and dried, so no vet would say she definately can or can't without trying and seeing how we go. If she stops and says 'no thanks' then the vets have said they will support the LOU and the insurance company has said, as much as they can, that they will accept it, with the usual assessments. Dizz was at Rossdales and Sue Dyson at the AHT.

Just about one hundred percent certain that it's this December, but going to check tomorrow.

I'm working on the basis that we won't break Dizz, she'll let me know when she isn't happy. That's part of my thinking, she'll try her heart out for me; if she did the same for a pro he might not know when she's saying she's "had enough and would rather stop now thank you".

I have a broken back and won't be riding again 'till December, so I'm out of the equation. D1 could do it, but green on green in a tight time frame is not a good plan. Dizz was jumping one metre plus before I got her, though a bit ad hoc shall we say ;)

I like your thought re. the saving etc. and having Dizz and D2 working on the unaffiliated classes for now. Bit of a pain having paid LOU fees for so long, it's almost tempting Fate to stop it lol
 
Just to add to my thoughts, if you did not specify a BS level when you insured her, then I think you have seriously limited options with the LoU as BS now starts at 70cm for seniors (senior intro shows have a 70cm and an 80cm option), so you'd need a vet to say she cannot jump round a 70cm course - do you really need a professional to jump her round 70cm courses until she breaks (or not, as the case may be!)?!
 
Ok, I didn't see your other reply before I posted my additional thoughts.

TBH, she doesn't need to actually do BS to not be able to do BS (if that makes sense?!) - so if D1 is happy jumping unaff, keep doing it. So if Dizz says 'thanks but no thanks' between now and December, then there is no reason your vets should not back you up and you claim LoU. If D1 is jumping 70-90cm she is jumping the minimum heights of BS classes anyway, and if Dizz can't do it unaff then she sure as heck won't do it affliliated!

The only way it would be worth getting a pro on Dizz IMO is if you had specified a certain level of BS you wanted the horse to be able to do (which you would probably have needed to do at the time of the vetting). If you have that down, then you need her to jump (or not) classes at that height to see whether or not the injury will stop her doing that. I am assuming that D1 is unlikely to reach those heights (whatever they nominally are) before December.

If you just specified BS in general, then if D1 keeps going even unaff, she's likely to a) be jumping BS heights (if not technicality), and if Dizz says no, then there's your LoU evidence, and b) do enough that if this is something which will stop her jumping full stop, it will show up.

So probably I'd just crack on with D1 and see where you are come December.
 
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