To get a professional showjumper to jump Dizz - is the LOU worth it...

SpottedCat said:
Just to add to my thoughts, if you did not specify a BS level when you insured her, then I think you have seriously limited options with the LoU as BS now starts at 70cm for seniors (senior intro shows have a 70cm and an 80cm option), so you'd need a vet to say she cannot jump round a 70cm course - do you really need a professional to jump her round 70cm courses until she breaks (or not, as the case may be!)?!
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We referenced heights if I remember right. Can't recall the exact wording, it was nearly two years ago, but will have to dig it all out before I talk to the insurance company tomorrow.

It would have to be a minimum of a 1.05 track. D1 could happily take her round the smaller tracks now.

I do not want her to break. I fully expect to know when/if she finds it painful/awkward. This is the horse that if the saddle doesn't fit right, isn't on right, lets the rider know :).

I don't know if I need a professional or not. It was an idea mooted by someone else who I respect, so I wanted to pursue the idea further and get thoughts and opinions :D
 
The problem is, you may not want her to break....the insurance company want to be as certain as they can be that they are paying out LoU in a case where there is doubt - so just because your vet backs you up when Dizz says 'no more' does not mean that a) they insurers won't send their own vet for a second opinion (who will not know the history/be as willing to take your word for it) or b) just reject it out of hand because there is not the evidence there to back up that it is not behavioural/rider/whatever :(

It's a pretty rubbish situation for you to be in sadly, which is kind of why it is probably only worth getting the pro on board if a) there is a minimum height specified and b) you can cope with the idea of her being broken. If you don't want that to happen, then I'd let D1 carry on, if it gets too much for Dizz before December, then claim LoU, if it doesn't, reconsider your options then.
 
I would have a serious chat with your insurance company and get them to put it in writing also as to what they consitute LOU to be in your case.

Will they accept that her stopping at a fence is physical or could it be lack of ability? Does the horse need to be lame before they will pay out? What height do they stipulate the criteria is that is a BS track? Will they accept your vets opinion or want their vet to assess? Is there anyway they can extend the deadling as you have bought her back into work slowly to give her every chance to repair and do the job you require rather than to rush her and break her (play on the so you will not have to pay out card)? Any other question you can think of, so you know where you fully stand with them, then make a decision from that.

Good luck it cannot be easy at all.
 
SpottedCat said:
Ok, I didn't see your other reply before I posted my additional thoughts.

TBH, she doesn't need to actually do BS to not be able to do BS (if that makes sense?!) - so if D1 is happy jumping unaff, keep doing it. So if Dizz says 'thanks but no thanks' between now and December, then there is no reason your vets should not back you up and you claim LoU. If D1 is jumping 70-90cm she is jumping the minimum heights of BS classes anyway, and if Dizz can't do it unaff then she sure as heck won't do it affliliated!

The only way it would be worth getting a pro on Dizz IMO is if you had specified a certain level of BS you wanted the horse to be able to do (which you would probably have needed to do at the time of the vetting). If you have that down, then you need her to jump (or not) classes at that height to see whether or not the injury will stop her doing that. I am assuming that D1 is unlikely to reach those heights (whatever they nominally are) before December.

If you just specified BS in general, then if D1 keeps going even unaff, she's likely to a) be jumping BS heights (if not technicality), and if Dizz says no, then there's your LoU evidence, and b) do enough that if this is something which will stop her jumping full stop, it will show up.

So probably I'd just crack on with D1 and see where you are come December.
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D and I were just having that conversation. D was asking if it was just one jump at plus 1.05; I said it had to be a course, as in a full up BS course (widths, heights, related distances, etc.), but we don't know if it has to be a BS comp, or if we can set up a course and try that, which means we could take it easy and not be fuelled or driven by the needs, etc., of others.

I think you're right, keep D1 doing it and see how we go :)

It was an interesting consideration, the pro route, but now that I've looked further into it all, I'd rather risk losing a payout than risk the Dizz.
 
Thing is, if your vets will back you to the hilt on your decision about whether it is the pelvic issue causing the lack of willingness to jump rather than anything else, then no, it doesn't have to be BS at all. You don't need a BS record (or lack of), you need a vet willing to say the horse won't do X/Y/Z for this specific, insured against, physical reason.

So I specified minimum of PN eventing on my horse - if he, say, got spavins and vet said 'fine to 90cm, don't do any more because of the spavins', then I could claim LoU and still have him schoolmaster someone round BE90. If I specified affiliated BE, then I would have to have a vet say he could not do 80cm.

The difficulty comes when the horse has no record at all, and there is nothing to say it could ever have done those things, regardless of the injury, because that muddies the water totally! So I always think that until you have a record, you pay the LoU and cross your fingers, once you have the record, you're in a much stronger position.
 
SpottedCat said:
The problem is, you may not want her to break....the insurance company want to be as certain as they can be that they are paying out LoU in a case where there is doubt - so just because your vet backs you up when Dizz says 'no more' does not mean that a) they insurers won't send their own vet for a second opinion (who will not know the history/be as willing to take your word for it) or b) just reject it out of hand because there is not the evidence there to back up that it is not behavioural/rider/whatever :(

It's a pretty rubbish situation for you to be in sadly, which is kind of why it is probably only worth getting the pro on board if a) there is a minimum height specified and b) you can cope with the idea of her being broken. If you don't want that to happen, then I'd let D1 carry on, if it gets too much for Dizz before December, then claim LoU, if it doesn't, reconsider your options then.
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If I remember right, and this is to be checked tomorrow when I call the insurance company, because Dizz was with Sue Dyson at the AHT, they 'accept' that their vet will want to discuss it, but know that it's an awkward issue to be saying for sure one way or the other. They'll want to see that she has been jumping okay, then that she cannot. They may well want further scans (forgotten the right name for it - scintography?) to see if there is any further issue on the take-up on the pelvis. That alone may put me off the whole idea, Dizz has had enough horsepitals to last her a lifetime.

It will have to be a minimum of 1.05.

I don't want Dizz broken. She's been through enough. I didn't really expect her to enjoy jumping - I was expecting that she would say No thanks!, but she seems to enjoy it very much.

I have spoken to D this evening. He gave me Tiggy (there is a long history, so him buying me a horse is beyond words!). When I lost Tiggy, to say I was devasted is puting it mildly. I thought he would take the 'opportunity' to have me back out of having a horse; but he bought Dizzy for me, doubling the original budget so I could have her. I chose LOU and convinced him I should have it. Now there is a possibility that it will actually be worth the paper it's written on, I thought I should consider all options, I thought he would want any money back that could be realised. I knew he wouldn't want Dizz hurt though. Anyhoo, just spoken to him about it all. He has said it's not worth it if it means putting Dizzy at risk. He's gone with the vast majority of peoples suggestions and said let D1 do what she can with Dizz and see how it goes, don't push it with the Dizz. If we don't claim and it turns out that Dizz can't BS, then such is life and I can have a rocking horse ;) (wonder if I can get it insured against woodworm... :D).
 
SpottedCat said:
Thing is, if your vets will back you to the hilt on your decision about whether it is the pelvic issue causing the lack of willingness to jump rather than anything else, then no, it doesn't have to be BS at all. You don't need a BS record (or lack of), you need a vet willing to say the horse won't do X/Y/Z for this specific, insured against, physical reason.

So I specified minimum of PN eventing on my horse - if he, say, got spavins and vet said 'fine to 90cm, don't do any more because of the spavins', then I could claim LoU and still have him schoolmaster someone round BE90. If I specified affiliated BE, then I would have to have a vet say he could not do 80cm.

The difficulty comes when the horse has no record at all, and there is nothing to say it could ever have done those things, regardless of the injury, because that muddies the water totally! So I always think that until you have a record, you pay the LoU and cross your fingers, once you have the record, you're in a much stronger position.
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Another thing to add to the pot! Will remember that useful bit for any future horses (we'll be looking for one for D1 as soon as we get her exams out of the way.... :D).

The vets are pretty united in what they think and are prepared to do re. the pelvis. Dizz has secondary damage to both hind suspensory ligaments as well. The vets are fairly surprised she didn't go lame and stay lame last year. One comment "Well, she hasn't read the text books has she!". They think that if her pelvis can't take it, as two of the vets have ridden her, that she will let the rider know.
 
Hey Mrs M,

Gosh how long is the rider wanting the dizz to be away from you for.....you just played tagg in the field....(I know its not the same as jumping 1.20 tracks but that developing bond!!)

Well I don't know if you could guess this but ;) I couldn't cope with being parted from the Ginge!!

Maybe intensive jumping lessons for D1 (is that your daughter? I am easily confused...I blame genetics)
 
Hello :D

"A few weeks".... We are due to meet this week to discuss.

I'm thinking that D1 (yes, eldest daughter :D) will be happy giving it a go.
Instructor is certainly happy with how she rides the Dizz, and as has been pointed out this evening, if Dizz can't cope with unaff up to 1.05, then she isn't going to cope with BS. Dizz enjoys jumping; so whilst part of me wants to wrap her in cotton wool, part of me wants her to do what makes her ears prick and her canter go all bouncy :D

D1 was worried that the bond/team thing would get messed up, but after today's playtime she knows that it won't :D. Also, D (hubby) has agreed that D1 can have another horse as she has outgrown Little Cob (her pony) and he is on long-term field rest (though the way he's been cantering and bucking and farfffing round the field the last week or so you wouldn't believe there was anything wrong with him!).

Anyhoo, I'm woffling on again :rolleyes:. D1 knows she has something to look forward to rather than just exams and riding her Mum's horse and knowing that when her Mum is fit and well again sometime before Christmas (I hope!!!) she'll be back on board the Dizzy one. This way, D1 will get some more experience, she and Dizz will get as far as they can and we'll reasses Dizz's fitness/capability/whether we need the pro or if D1 is doing okay, and D1 will then have her own horse to go compete on after in the new year. :D

I'll talk to the insurance company tomorrow and see what they say. Thanks to lots of helpful people on here I have lots more views/thoughts/ideas to help me make an informed decision :D

ETS: just re-read that. It doesn't flow at all, but hopefully anyone bothered enough or interested enough will be able to decipher my meaning :D
 
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MrsMozart said:
I'm working on the basis that we won't break Dizz, she'll let me know when she isn't happy. That's part of my thinking, she'll try her heart out for me; if she did the same for a pro he might not know when she's saying she's "had enough and would rather stop now thank you".
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Hmm, I actually think part of the reason my girl ended up quite so broken is because she'd always try her heart out of me - never refused a single fence with me in the years I was riding her, despite her having quite a lot going wrong on the inside... :( :( I would be very wary about working her on this basis :(
 
gah, i'm confused... (easily done tbf)

so... dizzy may be/may not be too broken to bsja? and you want to find out cos she's insured for bsja? so if she's too broken for it, you can get LOU? am i right?

so, in order to find out if she's too broken, you've got to get her BSJAing before December when LOU runs out?

cripes. :eek:

hmmm... my thoughts are
- can't you bsja at quite a teeny level now? have you specified a height in the insurance?

- when she stops at a fence ("i've had enough and would rather stop now") will insurers take this as being due to her broken-ness... or will they say it's ability related? Has she BSJA'd previously? is there reason to think she's a BSJA type horse?

- is there a risk that jumping/BSJAing her will break her further?

- is she fit enough to go off to a pro to jump competitively?

- how local is the pro? can you go visit etc?

perhaps you need to have a long chat with the insurers (who are you with?) and see what they say. the way it reads is that she has no BSJA (or whatever it's called now) experience. and that she was insured in the hope she would be able to in the future (i might have read it wrong) in which case you need to see what proof you need that a) she DOES have the ability to BSJA, and b) what proof you need to show she's no longer capable.

eek, good luck. it all sounds awful.
poor you. xxx
 
Which pro are you thinking about using Mrs M??? I'm in your area and so are one or two others on here, they might have info/experiences they can PM to you to help with your decision.
 
fabulous_fi said:
Mrs m

do you mind me asking what happened? are you unwell?
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Broke my back six weeks ago. Daft me, have to remember to wait until we've finished the jump before I get off.... :rolleyes:

I'm lucky, legs, etc. still working, just annoying and boring and niggly, and I ca't ride until December, at least I'm hoping it's no later than that!. Consultant and x-ray this Wednedsay.
 
Puppy said:
Surely not for this mare, as she clearly isn't fit to breed from?! :confused:
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That was part of the conversation last year with the insurance company. If her pelvis can't cope with the jumping, it is very unlikely to cope with pregnancy.

If I were to ever consider putting her in foal, all this LOU stuff apart, I'd have to have gone into it thoroughly with the vets and be happy that she would be okay.

'Tis a pity. She has very good breeding, from what people tell me of these things. She is out of a Malcom Pyrah showjumping mare (can't remember the rest of though!).
 
Puppy said:
Hmm, I actually think part of the reason my girl ended up quite so broken is because she'd always try her heart out of me - never refused a single fence with me in the years I was riding her, despite her having quite a lot going wrong on the inside... :( :( I would be very wary about working her on this basis :(
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Herein lies the rub, or one of them anyway. She should have gone lame and stayed lame, but hasn't; she's keen and happy to work, so I can only go by that. She certainly lets me know when she isn't happy! I could probably work her through it, but when she isn't right, we call a halt and start investigations. My vet is on speed dial! :eek::rolleyes::cool:
 
MrsMozart said:
Broke my back six weeks ago. Daft me, have to remember to wait until we've finished the jump before I get off.... :rolleyes:

I'm lucky, legs, etc. still working, just annoying and boring and niggly, and I ca't ride until December, at least I'm hoping it's no later than that!. Consultant and x-ray this Wednedsay.
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you're SO luckY! look after yourself, don't rush at all. x
 
Katt said:
Which pro are you thinking about using Mrs M??? I'm in your area and so are one or two others on here, they might have info/experiences they can PM to you to help with your decision.
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Thank you :D

I'll pm you :D. I haven't agreed anything with him yet, and at this rate I don't think we're going to go that route, but it's nothing against him. He was recommended by my instructor who knows Dizz (and me!) well.
 
I wouldn't worry about the LOU issue with regards to the breeding element. insurance companies are likely to say that could be an option but all you have to say is you have no intention of breeding and, with her pelvis then it wouldn't be a viable option anyway.

as far as the jumping goes, as others have said and as i said initially I really think you should just go to some BS events, let your daughter ride and see how she goes. At the end of the day if the horse enjoys jumping and wants to do it, it won't make a shred of difference to that horse if the fences are 80cm or 1.05m! I think people have a misconception about BS to be honest - at the lower levels/heights it is pretty straightforward stuff and, ok so the spreads at certain places may well be pulled out to the maximum allowed BUT this really makes no odds to the horse at all.

As someone else also said, unless your horse was jumping 1.20 courses before then there is no guarantee she'd have been up to jumping at that level anyway. Some horses just aren't up to it injured or not injured. However, most horses can happily jump round 1m courses and with BS the strides will be correct and all in all it makes jumping the courses more straight forward and enjoyable.

I really think you should forget about the LOU for the time being and look at enjoying jumping her and seeing how things go. I am sure your daughter will enjoy it and gain a lot of confidence. Sure i can see the benefit of sending a horse away for jump schooling etc but where do you get the enjoyment from that?

i would certainly ring the insurer as well - when was your policy renewal date and when did this injury occur? As i said before, you should have 365 form the date of your renewal to submit a LOU claim if the injury/illness occurred within an insured period. Therefore i assume this is what they mean by the fact the expiry date is Dec and they haven't based this on being 12 mths from the actual injury date?
 
clipcloppop said:
gah, i'm confused... (easily done tbf)

so... dizzy may be/may not be too broken to bsja? and you want to find out cos she's insured for bsja? so if she's too broken for it, you can get LOU? am i right?

so, in order to find out if she's too broken, you've got to get her BSJAing before December when LOU runs out?

cripes. :eek:

hmmm... my thoughts are
- can't you bsja at quite a teeny level now? have you specified a height in the insurance?

- when she stops at a fence ("i've had enough and would rather stop now") will insurers take this as being due to her broken-ness... or will they say it's ability related? Has she BSJA'd previously? is there reason to think she's a BSJA type horse?

- is there a risk that jumping/BSJAing her will break her further?

- is she fit enough to go off to a pro to jump competitively?

- how local is the pro? can you go visit etc?

perhaps you need to have a long chat with the insurers (who are you with?) and see what they say. the way it reads is that she has no BSJA (or whatever it's called now) experience. and that she was insured in the hope she would be able to in the future (i might have read it wrong) in which case you need to see what proof you need that a) she DOES have the ability to BSJA, and b) what proof you need to show she's no longer capable.

eek, good luck. it all sounds awful.
poor you. xxx
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Yes, right for the first two parts :)

I bought her because her breeding should mean that she goes to the higher levels of BS; her siblings are out and about (can't remember names, though think I'll call her last owner and actually write it all down this time!).

No, no BS experience for her as yet. It was anticipated that she should be able to do the bigger tracks, as much as one can anticipate these things, so that is what the LOU was for - in case she couldn't.

She was jumping over one metre before I got her, but that was just a few goes and not a full track. I'm going to ring the insurance company to confirm with them what they definitavely need to prove she won't. If the 'test' is too onerous, i.e. she has to go lame, then I will forget the LOU claim.
 
Did you say pelvis problems and suspensory ligaments? Hmm, if it were me I think I'd forget the LoU, you're 'lucky' (I know, stupid thing to say in these circumstances) that she's sound and I wouldn't risk breaking her by jumping. I know you bought her for jumping, but that's horses for you. Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
ladyt25 said:
I wouldn't worry about the LOU issue with regards to the breeding element. insurance companies are likely to say that could be an option but all you have to say is you have no intention of breeding and, with her pelvis then it wouldn't be a viable option anyway.

as far as the jumping goes, as others have said and as i said initially I really think you should just go to some BS events, let your daughter ride and see how she goes. At the end of the day if the horse enjoys jumping and wants to do it, it won't make a shred of difference to that horse if the fences are 80cm or 1.05m! I think people have a misconception about BS to be honest - at the lower levels/heights it is pretty straightforward stuff and, ok so the spreads at certain places may well be pulled out to the maximum allowed BUT this really makes no odds to the horse at all.

As someone else also said, unless your horse was jumping 1.20 courses before then there is no guarantee she'd have been up to jumping at that level anyway. Some horses just aren't up to it injured or not injured. However, most horses can happily jump round 1m courses and with BS the strides will be correct and all in all it makes jumping the courses more straight forward and enjoyable.

I really think you should forget about the LOU for the time being and look at enjoying jumping her and seeing how things go. I am sure your daughter will enjoy it and gain a lot of confidence. Sure i can see the benefit of sending a horse away for jump schooling etc but where do you get the enjoyment from that?

i would certainly ring the insurer as well - when was your policy renewal date and when did this injury occur? As i said before, you should have 365 form the date of your renewal to submit a LOU claim if the injury/illness occurred within an insured period. Therefore i assume this is what they mean by the fact the expiry date is Dec and they haven't based this on being 12 mths from the actual injury date?
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We're coming to the end of the period. It will be two years this coming New Year. Dizz hasn't been fit enough/in consistant work to get her fit enough until recently, nor was she mature enough mentally or physically. Given the pelvis issue, I wanted to be sure everything was as good as it could be. Then I had to work away, then I broke my back, and suddenly two and a half months disappeared.
 
Slightly Foxed said:
Did you say pelvis problems and suspensory ligaments? Hmm, if it were me I think I'd forget the LoU, you're 'lucky' (I know, stupid thing to say in these circumstances) that she's sound and I wouldn't risk breaking her by jumping. I know you bought her for jumping, but that's horses for you. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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Yes, I was surprised when the vets said I could go ahead and jump (took a very long time fittening!), but as she didn't go lame in connection with either the pelvis or the suspensories, after the initial bout, I've been told I can 'treat her as a normal horse'. The suspensories were secondary to the pelvis and are not considered to be a problem, or so I have been told.
 
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