To Scrape or not to scrape....

[Ambers Echo]

And what about you must never feed AFTER riding? But leave it at least an hour and preferably 3?

Sports science research in humans has shown that feeding immediately after strenuous exercise is the perfect time to replenish the muscles. There is a 'golden hour' after hard work when muscles are most receptive and therefore repair and rebuild quicker with a high protein feed. Chris Froome was made to neck 2200calories within 20 MINUTES of mountain stages at the Tour de France last year based on that science!

Human endurance athletes have been refeeding immediately after hard work for years. Hence the rise of recovery shakes. Why should it not be the same for horses? A very experienced local rider/trainer advocates high protein feed straight after any hard session with horses and is having fanastic results in terms of recovery and muscling up.

I wonder what the racehorse trainers do?

 

[Birker2020]

Best practice with a really hot horse is to scrape as you hose, and continue to scrape until the water you are scraping off is cool. That's what the professionals used to do at horse trials. I just hose mine when I've untacked and feed when she's cool, fly sheet and turnout.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Best practice with a really hot horse is to scrape as you hose, and continue to scrape until the water you are scraping off is cool.

Why? Why not just hose until the horse is cool? Why bother with the scraping as you go? I don't believe this is 'best practice' - I believe it is an Old Wives Tale that has somehow stuck. But happy to be corrected if you can show me any evidence.

 

[SEL]

Why? Why not just hose until the horse is cool? Why bother with the scraping as you go? I don't believe this is 'best practice' - I believe it is an Old Wives Tale that has somehow stuck. But happy to be corrected if you can show me any evidence.

After all if we're really hot and get in a cold shower we stand there until we've cooled down. No requirement for scraping!

I'm on a couple of Dr Kellon's nutrition forums and she advocates protein in a feed post exercise. Given mine is never fed high starch food, she gets fed both before and after exercise (once I've hosed her down without scraping obviously) and is then chucked out. Very non BHS apparently.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I've started giving Amber a post workout recovery meal too. She seems quite pleased with that!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Racing - we throw a few buckets over them once they come off the track whether they are in the winners enclosure or not. No scraped off. Once back in the stables they are washed down thoroughly and hosed down a fair bit but it's not always possible to stand with them under the hose due to other horses needing washed down and the fact they need to walk round to cool the muscles down. We scrape them off in the stable yard once washed down.

 

[Auslander]

Best practice with a really hot horse is to scrape as you hose, and continue to scrape until the water you are scraping off is cool. That's what the professionals used to do at horse trials. I just hose mine when I've untacked and feed when she's cool, fly sheet and turnout.

It's not though - if you read the research that has taken place over the last few years. Scraping was the done thing until the Atlanta ad Beiijing Olympics studies kicked off a lot of additional research - leading to a protocol that does not advocate scraping - it condemns it, if anything. None of the endurance lot scrape - because they are probably the most clued up sector when it comes to cooling, and I can't remember the last time I saw international event horses being scraped. It's all about getting as much water/ice on as possible, as quick as possible

 

[chaps89]

I crewed at Euston FEI endurance ride last year. It was an unseasonably warm day and the instructions were to chuck as much water on the horses as quick as possible until they were cool. Once through vetting they were then stood in buckets of iced water. Not a sweat scraper in sight.
I'm sure the average rider won't be going to such extremes but I figured if it worked for them it would do for me.
ETA- and they definitely encouraged feeding at each vet gate and the horses had a sugar solution (made from dates/prunes judging by the packaging and purple colour!) syringed down them too. It makes sense to sustain the body after such intense periods of exercise surely?

 

[Mule]

I crewed at Euston FEI endurance ride last year. It was an unseasonably warm day and the instructions were to chuck as much water on the horses as quick as possible until they were cool. Once through vetting they were then stood in buckets of iced water. Not a sweat scraper in sight.
I'm sure the average rider won't be going to such extremes but I figured if it worked for them it would do for me.
ETA- and they definitely encouraged feeding at each vet gate and the horses had a sugar solution (made from dates/prunes judging by the packaging and purple colour!) syringed down them too. It makes sense to sustain the body after such intense periods of exercise surely?

The endurance people are always at the forefront of progress in horse care. Equestrianism as a sport seems to be very reluctant to embrace nutritional science and behavioural science compared to other sports. Tradition is given too much importance imo.

Another example is positive reinforcement in the form of clicker training. It's been used since the 50's in marine life and avians. It's been used by zoos, dog trainers, etc, for decades. A lot of horse people still think it's voodoo! Even the founder of behaviourism back in the 50's tried to work with horse trainers. His conclusion was that horse people didn't believe in being nice to horses!

 

[Auslander]

Just to add to the debate - DM has just posted the following on Facebook

"WILL YOUR HORSE OVERHEAT IF YOU LEAVE IT OR TURN IT OUT WET?

*** PLEASE SHARE - HELP BUST THE MYTH ***

This myth still seems to be doing the rounds so let's bust this one. It's an easy one to bust.

THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want the explanation, read on....

When you get out of the sea or a swimming pool or even the shower do you start to heat up? No, you immediately start to feel cooler as the water on your skin starts to evaporate. Evaporation is especially fast in warm-hot, dry, sunny and windy conditions!

If you turn your horse out wet it will actually continue to keep them cool as the water held in the coat (around 2-3 litres on average horse) continues to evaporate.

Ahh, but "what about if the humidity is 100% I hear someone say? at 100% humidity water will not evaporate and the horse will be insulated and unable to lose heat!" WRONG!

The ability of water to conduct (move) heat from the horses' skin to the coat surface where it can be lost by convection, is actually BETTER than that of air. At 40°C water conducts heat over 20x better than air. That means it moves heat from the skin through the coat to the surface of the coat over 20x faster than would happen through air within the coat if the horse was dry.

BOTTOM LINE - There is no situation where leaving your horse wet in any warm-hot environment which will lead it to risk being overheated more than if it was dry."

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks Auslander. I've shared the post on FB where all the Pony Club bods will see it......

 

[EventingMum]

I can't find it now but a day or two ago there was a post on Facebook showing thermal imaging of a hot horse being washed and scrapped and one not being scrapped. The one not being scrapped was cooler which went against all I had been taught with eventers after xc but would suggest not scrapping is more efficient for cooling.

 

[Birker2020]

Why? Why not just hose until the horse is cool? Why bother with the scraping as you go? I don't believe this is 'best practice' - I believe it is an Old Wives Tale that has somehow stuck. But happy to be corrected if you can show me any evidence.

Another important part of cooling out horses is evaporation. After the horse has been sprayed off, it is very important to scrape the water off. This is because once the horse is sprayed, the water absorbs the horse's heat and becomes warm. In order for evaporation to occur effectively, this warm water must be removed. This process can be repeated until the horse's temperature comes down (i.e. spray then scrape, spray again then scrape again, etc.). If the water is not scraped off, it could act as an insulating layer and actually make the horse hotter than when you started.

https://www.equisearch.com/articles/scrape-off-water-quickly
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/proper-way-cool-hot-horse (3rd paragraph down)
https://horsenetwork.com/2017/11/need-know-cooling-horses/ (under conduction)
http://articles.extension.org/pages...ply-spray-the-horse-all-over-with-water-and-d (second paragraph)

 

[Ambers Echo]

All the articles you are quoting reference the FEI conference pre Atlanta in 19996 where the hypothesis that an insulating layer of water might keep the horse hot was explored. Loads of people quote 'research' that 'showed' but I have yet to see a citation to the actual research paper. None of the articles cite that reseach either. They reference it but they do not provide links to any papers. So I can only assume no peer reviewed papers supporting that position were ever published.

On the contrary there have been peer reviewed papers that HAVE been published that say this is a myth. That it is simply untrue and therefore this is a theory that has been completely discredited.

eg: http://davidmarlin.co.uk/portfolio/to-scrape-or-not-to-scrape-when-cooling-hot-horses/

Which is why endurance vets, FEI vets etc do not scrape at majpor events anymore.

 

[ihatework]

Another important part of cooling out horses is evaporation. After the horse has been sprayed off, it is very important to scrape the water off. This is because once the horse is sprayed, the water absorbs the horse's heat and becomes warm. In order for evaporation to occur effectively, this warm water must be removed. This process can be repeated until the horse's temperature comes down (i.e. spray then scrape, spray again then scrape again, etc.). If the water is not scraped off, it could act as an insulating layer and actually make the horse hotter than when you started.

https://www.equisearch.com/articles/scrape-off-water-quickly
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/proper-way-cool-hot-horse (3rd paragraph down)
https://horsenetwork.com/2017/11/need-know-cooling-horses/ (under conduction)
http://articles.extension.org/pages...ply-spray-the-horse-all-over-with-water-and-d (second paragraph)

Sometimes hopscotch bandit, google is not your friend.

 

[Theocat]

Another important part of cooling out horses is evaporation. After the horse has been sprayed off, it is very important to scrape the water off. This is because once the horse is sprayed, the water absorbs the horse's heat and becomes warm. In order for evaporation to occur effectively, this warm water must be removed. This process can be repeated until the horse's temperature comes down (i.e. spray then scrape, spray again then scrape again, etc.). If the water is not scraped off, it could act as an insulating layer and actually make the horse hotter than when you started.

https://www.equisearch.com/articles/scrape-off-water-quickly
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/proper-way-cool-hot-horse (3rd paragraph down)
https://horsenetwork.com/2017/11/need-know-cooling-horses/ (under conduction)
http://articles.extension.org/pages...ply-spray-the-horse-all-over-with-water-and-d (second paragraph)

But evaporation can ONLY occur as water heats up and evaporates off the horse, taking the heat with it! Less water means slower evaporation.

If the water on the outside of the horse is hot, it is because you have successfully transferred some if the beat from the horse to the water. Warmer water evaporates faster.

We - and horses! - sweat because having liquid on our skin cools us down. Why do you think that process is different when it's water instead of sweat? Why do you think less water is better than more water?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Found this!

https://inside.fei.org/sites/defaul...e_in_a_challenging_climate_SUPPORTING_DOC.pdf

The key section states:

"Prior to 1992, there were only a handful of scientific papers dealing with how horses
respond to exercise in thermally challenging conditions. In the period between Barcelona
1992 and Atlanta 1996, there were over 50 different scientific papers published. The FEI
initiative resulted in collaboration between research groups around the world and included
veterinary surgeons and scientists in universities and research institutes, as well as many
vets working in practice. The results of these studies were presented and discussed at a
number of major international scientific meetings between 1993 and 1996, the first of
which was the FEI Samsung International Sports Medicine Conference, which took place in
Atlanta in March 1994 which was chaired by Professor Leo Jeffcott. A book entitled “On to
Atlanta ‘96”, which summarised the scientific and veterinary aspects of the research
undertaken to date, was published in 1994 by the Equine Research Centre at the University
of Guelph in Ontario (CAN) and was made widely available.
Between 1992 and 1996 the research covered a wide range of topics related to competing
in thermally challenging conditions, including:
 How to accurately measure thermal environmental stress
 The physiological demands of Olympic level Eventing competition
 How horses respond to exercise in hot and hot humid conditions
 The effects of hot and humid conditions on athletes
 Nutrition of the event horse
 Electrolyte supplementation
 The effects of long-distance transport on horses
 Anhidrosis – loss of ability to sweat
 Acclimatisation to heat and humidity
 Quantifying cross-country course effort
 Effects of modifying different phases of the speed and endurance test
 Clinical evaluation of fitness to continue in the 10-minute box
 Techniques for cooling horses after exercise


Later the section on cooling horses says scraping is a waste of time.

This supports what I had assumed: Scraping was a belief -based recommendation that the research did not support. So the articles that say 'research from the FEI conference shows' are really irritating! It was a question that the FEI conference explored and the research showed it DID NOT help.

 

[ester]

Quite and I wonder if she missed the OP?

AE just as a point of accuracy Dr Marlin isn't a vet

 

[Mule]

Thanks Auslander. I've shared the post on FB where all the Pony Club bods will see it......

Heads will explode

 

[Ambers Echo]

Heads will explode

Sadly I think heads will ignore/dismiss instead!

 

[Abi90]

The while insulating layer of water just goes against physics and biology anyway. If the water on the horse is warm, that’s because it’s absorbed heat from the horse and made it cooler. Then the action of evaporation would cool again.

I always thought we scraped to stop the horse getting sore/ dirtier, never heard of some random physics explanation that makes no sense until now