Toe first landing. How significant is it?

Wagtail

Wagtail

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I was just wondered how common it was for vets to not seem to think there is anything to worry about with toe first landing? Just that the vet and physio have been several times to a horse that has been showing transient hind leg lameness issues and discomfort when ridden. But when I have mentioned his toe first landing (in trot) they seem completely unconcerned. :confused:
 
Wagtail said:
I was just wondered how common it was for vets to not seem to think there is anything to worry about with toe first landing? Just that the vet and physio have been several times to a horse that has been showing transient hind leg lameness issues and discomfort when ridden. But when I have mentioned his toe first landing (in trot) they seem completely unconcerned. :confused:
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Some people believe in God. Some don't ;).
 
Oberon said:
Some people believe in God. Some don't ;).
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That explains a lot. :D

My feeling is that he is suffering behind because he has problems with his forefeet. Not lame as such, but the toe first landing is really obvious. He is going for a bone scan, so I expect if there are problems in his feet they will show up?
 
Wagtail said:
That explains a lot. :D
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Glad you 'got' what I meant by it :D

Wagtail said:
My feeling is that he is suffering behind because he has problems with his forefeet.
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Chicken and egg with hinds versus fronts.

Wagtail said:
Not lame as such, but the toe first landing is really obvious. He is going for a bone scan, so I expect if there are problems in his feet they will show up?
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I don't know what a bone scan would reveal regards to hooves.

My personal thing is the frog. You often find that (when it isn't lami) a weak or unhappy frog is at the bottom of an unhappy bare hoof.
 
I have found that vets (and farriers) who have visited have not placed a huge importance on it.

However when I was having lameness investigation at the RVC, the consultant who had students with him and was using it as a training session did draw attention to it as something to look for.

Incidentally horse in question wasn't landing quite as heel first on the off fore, still heel first but different to the near fore. Turned out to have a shoulder issue so as he moved he wasn't moving the whole limb through as far to protect the shoulder and landed differently.
 
Yes definitely. Is he toe first on the hinds?

I think that when they land on the 'hoof wall' as it were instead of the structures at the back, with which they are meant to do, then they are obviously avoiding pain to the back of the foot.

Pain which could be in the hoof structures it self, or if higher up, a problem which is longstanding and contributing to the foot placement... which came first I wonder? Hoof mis-placement or limb unsoundness?

Chicken and egg situation.

A gelding who has been recuperating at the farm with front limb lameness (longstanding thrush initially) was x-rayed and found to actually have arthritis in coffin joint and some ringbone... the contracted heels was a clue to a number of problems but which came first?
 
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Oberon said:
Glad you 'got' what I meant by it :D



Chicken and egg with hinds versus fronts.



I don't know what a bone scan would reveal regards to hooves.

My personal thing is the frog. You often find that (when it isn't lami) a weak or unhappy frog is at the bottom of an unhappy bare hoof.
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His frogs are skinny and weak, but he's shod.
 
It seems much more important in front hooves. Many land flat in hind hooves.
Long term toe first in front hooves can be (and often is) catastrophic.
There's so much more to it all though imho. :(
 
criso said:
I have found that vets (and farriers) who have visited have not placed a huge importance on it.

However when I was having lameness investigation at the RVC, the consultant who had students with him and was using it as a training session did draw attention to it as something to look for.

Incidentally horse in question wasn't landing quite as heel first on the off fore, still heel first but different to the near fore. Turned out to have a shoulder issue so as he moved he wasn't moving the whole limb through as far to protect the shoulder and landed differently.
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Interesting. He occasionally doesn't step through properly with his left shoulder.

tallyho! said:
Yes definitely. Is he toe first on the hinds?

I think that when they land on the 'hoof wall' as it were instead of the structures at the back, with which they are meant to do, then they are obviously avoiding pain to the back of the foot.

Pain which could be in the hoof structures it self, or if higher up, a problem which is longstanding and contributing to the foot placement... which came first I wonder? Hoof mis-placement or limb unsoundness?
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It is hard to tell with his hinds, certainly not as obvious. But he drags his hind toes and sometimes knuckles over when slowing down. I think he has SI issues and possibly back/neck issues. Cptrayes put me in mind of wobblers too, which is another possibility, though if he has it, it is extremely mild. I guess we will know a bit more after the bone scan. But I just thought it was strange that even though I have mentioned the toe first landing on more than one occasion, the vet seemed completely unconcerned. Just ignored it, in fact.
 
amandap said:
It seems much more important in front hooves. Many land flat in hind hooves.
Long term toe first in front hooves can be (and often is) catastrophic.
There's so much more to it all though imho. :(
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I am pleased that now at least he is having some further diagnostics. My fear is that if they do find a problem with the feet, they will just send him home in egg bars and wedges. :(
 
If they are not trained to look for it, they will not know the significance of it. I think when it comes to feet, convention still has a little way to catch up. Some vets are more progressive than others.

The natural reflex still seems to be "shoe it", "shoe it with wedges" or the holy grail of vet's solutions to problem feet "heartbars".
 
sally2008 said:
How significant is it? Significant enough that I'd be looking for a new vet! ;)
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Really? I have to admit, I am concerned. Though he is going to Rossdales now and so I expect he is in the best hands. My only fear would be the tendency for vets to tackle hoof issues with remedial farriery, when many horses would be better going barefoot. I am not at all anti shoeing, but I think if there's a hoof problem, then it is best to let nature have a go at mending it.
 
Wagtail said:
Really? I have to admit, I am concerned. Though he is going to Rossdales now and so I expect he is in the best hands. My only fear would be the tendency for vets to tackle hoof issues with remedial farriery, when many horses would be better going barefoot. I am not at all anti shoeing, but I think if there's a hoof problem, then it is best to let nature have a go at mending it.
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Hear hear... if only we all thought like this eh wagtail? :rolleyes:
 
This makes me wonder as well. The vets in our area will not take toe first landing as a problem, why? If they know the workings and how a foot should function why isn't it a thought for them? A horse on the yard I'm at is v toe first and trips all the time and has bad backs one after after. I've mentioned the toe first landing but its of no concern to the owner who is happy to pay for back treatment every couple of months and give him time of when lame. The horse is in my mind on stilts. But than again my barefoot horse has got no feet, been worn away in her mind! What's right? Is it lack of knowledge or not wanting to learn? If somebody made a passing comment about toe first on my horse I would look into it, well actually I did hence why my lad is now sound and heel first.
 
tallyho! said:
If they are not trained to look for it, they will not know the significance of it. I think when it comes to feet, convention still has a little way to catch up. Some vets are more progressive than others.

The natural reflex still seems to be "shoe it", "shoe it with wedges" or the holy grail of vet's solutions to problem feet "heartbars".
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Ah yes, I should have said heartbars and wedges.
 
Wagtail said:
His frogs are skinny and weak, but he's shod.
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Ah, well if he is shod then your answer is that the back of the hoof and frog isn't capable of bearing it's fair share of the load, hence the toe first landing.

However I have heard a theory from a source I respect that a shod horse SHOULD land flat (not toe first, but not heel first either) due to the angle of the coffin bone with the shoe.

I can imagine heart bars and wedges are on the horizon.
 
Wagtail said:
Really? I have to admit, I am concerned. Though he is going to Rossdales now and so I expect he is in the best hands. My only fear would be the tendency for vets to tackle hoof issues with remedial farriery, when many horses would be better going barefoot. I am not at all anti shoeing, but I think if there's a hoof problem, then it is best to let nature have a go at mending it.
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Yes, sorry but I really would be looking elsewhere but then I am a self-confessed footaholic! Several years ago I went to a very interesting lecture on the effects of toe landing, which opened my eyes to a whole world of research into the causes of, treatment and prevention of lameness. I will see if I can dig out a link to the graphics for you.
 
thatsmygirl said:
This makes me wonder as well. The vets in our area will not take toe first landing as a problem, why? If they know the workings and how a foot should function why isn't it a thought for them? A horse on the yard I'm at is v toe first and trips all the time and has bad backs one after after. I've mentioned the toe first landing but its of no concern to the owner who is happy to pay for back treatment every couple of months and give him time of when lame. The horse is in my mind on stilts. But than again my barefoot horse has got no feet, been worn away in her mind! What's right? Is it lack of knowledge or not wanting to learn? If somebody made a passing comment about toe first on my horse I would look into it, well actually I did hence why my lad is now sound and heel first.
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That is why I asked the question. I was wondering if it was just not something that the majority of vets view as a problem. :confused:
 
Wagtail said:
I am pleased that now at least he is having some further diagnostics. My fear is that if they do find a problem with the feet, they will just send him home in egg bars and wedges. :(
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:( This is where I think some vets go wrong. They focus too much on treating one issue and don't see the whole picture. Treating one symptom and not addressing any causes is not going to help in the longer term and in the mean time the overall breakdown smoulders away until it bursts into flames. :(
 
Yes when I was doing a lit review on it oberon the consensus was mainly that shod horses should land flat. It was mainly barefooters saying heel first. The only thing everyone agreed on was it's not supposed to be toe first ;)
 
Wagtail said:
Interesting. He occasionally doesn't step through properly with his left shoulder.


.
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Please don't start panicking about shoulders as well as feet

The shoulder issue was unrelated and incredibly rare, so rare it's only about the second case they'd ever seen.

Mine had had foot problems in the past which had been resolved but which meant I was very aware of landing so noticed it.
 
thatsmygirl said:
This makes me wonder as well. The vets in our area will not take toe first landing as a problem, why? If they know the workings and how a foot should function why isn't it a thought for them?

They are just not trained to that level in the UK - anything extra-curricular is exactly that... a vet has to have an interest in hooves to care that much more about it IMO... how many vets do you know are "hoof specialists"? You get eye specialists, teeth specialists, lameness specialists... but I do not know any UK vet who labels him/herself as a hoof specialist... that is surely a farriers job?? :D

A horse on the yard I'm at is v toe first and trips all the time and has bad backs one after after. I've mentioned the toe first landing but its of no concern to the owner who is happy to pay for back treatment every couple of months and give him time of when lame. The horse is in my mind on stilts. But than again my barefoot horse has got no feet, been worn away in her mind! What's right? Is it lack of knowledge or not wanting to learn?

Anatomically and physiologically speaking the horse with "no feet" and is sound is right...

If somebody made a passing comment about toe first on my horse I would look into it, well actually I did hence why my lad is now sound and heel first.
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:).
 
amandap said:
:( This is where I think some vets go wrong. They focus too much on treating one issue and don't see the whole picture. Treating one symptom and not addressing any causes is not going to help in the longer term and in the mean time the overall breakdown smoulders away until it bursts into flames. :(
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Agreed and, unfortunately, correct trimming / farriery / bodywork etc doesn't earn them any money, unlike nerve blocks, xrays, MRI's, bute, etc, etc, etc ((insert steam coming out of ears smiley))
 
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