Toe first landing. How significant is it?

I think it's better in America where you have people like Bob Bowker doing research. There is no vet that I know of in the UK championing the hoof. There are bodies of knowledge so to speak but it does not have the support of "established" institutions... there seems to be an endemic FEAR of anything remotely equine that doesn't have six nails in each foot :D:D

OMG it's got no shoes on!!! Run away!!!!
 
Isn't it interesting about the FEI "boots masking unsoundness"... so, shoes don't?

What about wedges used in FEI competitions? Of course, that does nothing to mask soundness :rolleyes:
 
tallyho! said:
I think it's better in America where you have people like Bob Bowker doing research. There is no vet that I know of in the UK championing the hoof. There are bodies of knowledge so to speak but it does not have the support of "established" institutions... there seems to be an endemic FEAR of anything remotely equine that doesn't have six nails in each foot :D:D

OMG it's got no shoes on!!! Run away!!!!
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The UK branch of ELPO (Equine Lameness Prevention Organisation) are doing some great work in championing the up to date research and techniques, both shod and unshod, on this side of the water (contact thomas_halpin@sky.com to go on the mailing list for info of events they are running throughout the year). They are a non-profit making organisation who seem happy to chuck pebbles into establishment ponds and create some spreading ripples. I wish them every success in getting the message through to vets that there are improved methods and techniques available to those who are brave enough to open their minds.
 
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tallyho! said:
Isn't it interesting about the FEI "boots masking unsoundness"... so, shoes don't?

What about wedges used in FEI competitions? Of course, that does nothing to mask soundness :rolleyes:
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What about illicit drugs. :D In my view it's all just flannel and excuses to maintain the status quo and tradition and keep the top, influential bods happy. :(
 
sally2008 said:
The UK branch of ELPO (Equine Lameness Prevention Organisation) are doing some great work in championing the up to date research and techniques, both shod and unshod, on this side of the water (contact thomas_halpin@sky.com to go on the mailing list for info of events they are running throughout the year). Are are a non-profit making organisation who seem happy to chuck pebbles into establishment ponds and create some spreading ripples. I wish them every success in getting the message through to vets that there are improved methods and techniques available to those who are brave enough to open their minds.
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I've never heard of them. :o I wish them success too, even small ones.
 
amandap said:
What about illicit drugs. :D In my view it's all just flannel and excuses to maintain the status quo and tradition and keep the top, influential bods happy. :(
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Whaaaa??? Drugs?? You don't mean they use drugs do you?? Oh me oh my, my dreams have been shattered.... I used to look up to the FEI, I liked the curly necks of horses they like to show on the website... Always wanted a curly necked horse with frothy teeth and a blue tongue... agree, boots would look ridiculous :D:D:D:D
 
Wagtail said:
My feeling is that he is suffering behind because he has problems with his forefeet. Not lame as such, but the toe first landing is really obvious.
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Exactly. My front foot lame rehab has made more changes to his hind feet than he has to his front ones. His whole footfall behind went completely screwy, then stabilised, before he became sound in front. He had also been having regular back manipulation before he went barefoot.

He hunted on Saturday - after 4 years of lameness and rest that didn't work - result!

You say the horse is not lame as such Wagtail, but it is surprising how many "sound" horses are obviously lame if you block out one or other front foot, because it's just equally bilaterally lame.
 
sally2008 said:
The UK branch of ELPO (Equine Lameness Prevention Organisation) are doing some great work in championing the up to date research and techniques, both shod and unshod, on this side of the water (contact thomas_halpin@sky.com to go on the mailing list for info of events they are running throughout the year). They are a non-profit making organisation who seem happy to chuck pebbles into establishment ponds and create some spreading ripples. I wish them every success in getting the message through to vets that there are improved methods and techniques available to those who are brave enough to open their minds.
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Correction - UK ELPO now have a direct email, elpouk@hotmail.com, for anyone who would like to be get details about their lectures / demos etc.
 
My best friend is a vet and she is very clear heel first landing is the 'correct' way for a horse to load however they rarely really load heel first in shoes so a flat landing is probally the best you can expect , toe first indicates something is wrong.
Could be the shoeing itself ,could be heel pain it's finding out the why is where it gets interesting.
Of my BF horses the first took three months to get consistently heel first he now has a spectacular heel first landing .
My TB will have been BF one year in April his feet where a mess and very weak in the heel department he's just coming now and you can see the development in his heels visibly changing faster now as he loads differently.
My cob went BF in October he's complicated by being pidgeon toed which affects his gait hes got good heel first landing in walk now.
All these horses have changed their loading since I took them BF.
We have one horse shod he was very toe first at the end of the last hunting season and I thought pottery although his rider thought he was ok.
He spent six months of the year BF we got loading heel first changed farriers went with a natural balance type shoe he a much happier chap this winter and his loading is good .
It's hard if your vet thinks its not significant but I am clear in my own mind toe first does matter it can be changed with a bit of work from the owner or whoever cares for the horse but you do need to invest a bit of time.
But if the vet is not open minded I can see its a struggle.
 
cptrayes said:
Exactly. My front foot lame rehab has made more changes to his hind feet than he has to his front ones. His whole footfall behind went completely screwy, then stabilised, before he became sound in front. He had also been having regular back manipulation before he went barefoot.

He hunted on Saturday - after 4 years of lameness and rest that didn't work - result!

You say the horse is not lame as such Wagtail, but it is surprising how many "sound" horses are obviously lame if you block out one or other front foot, because it's just equally bilaterally lame.
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Great news about your horse Cptrayes :D

I have to admit, the vet, up until now has been fixated on his hocks despite clean xrays and no improvement with steroid injections and tildren. His front legs have not even been checked. I am leaning more and more towards a front limb/foot problem with a knock on effect on his SI/back. When you add his lightweight rider, everything becomes amplified, as though he is carrying 25 stone, not 8. But I also think what you said about wobblers needs checking. I did a sway test on him and he was rather too easy to shift for my liking. In the mornings when he goes to eat his breakfast he seems to take for ever lowering his head.
 
Goldenstar said:
My best friend is a vet and she is very clear heel first landing is the 'correct' way for a horse to load however they rarely really load heel first in shoes so a flat landing is probally the best you can expect , toe first indicates something is wrong.
Could be the shoeing itself ,could be heel pain it's finding out the why is where it gets interesting.
Of my BF horses the first took three months to get consistently heel first he now has a spectacular heel first landing .
My TB will have been BF one year in April his feet where a mess and very weak in the heel department he's just coming now and you can see the development in his heels visibly changing faster now as he loads differently.
My cob went BF in October he's complicated by being pidgeon toed which affects his gait hes got good heel first landing in walk now.
All these horses have changed their loading since I took them BF.
We have one horse shod he was very toe first at the end of the last hunting season and I thought pottery although his rider thought he was ok.
He spent six months of the year BF we got loading heel first changed farriers went with a natural balance type shoe he a much happier chap this winter and his loading is good .
It's hard if your vet thinks its not significant but I am clear in my own mind toe first does matter it can be changed with a bit of work from the owner or whoever cares for the horse but you do need to invest a bit of time.
But if the vet is not open minded I can see its a struggle.
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That's amazing that they have changed that much. Hopefully with this fella, we will start to get somewhere once he goes to Rossdales next week. It's a puzzling and frustrating case. Hopefully it will be easy to fix once we find what it is.
 
Hiya Wagtail, I am not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, but has anyone checked his neck and poll. Bizarrely I was chatting to a good friend this morning reminiscing about her old horse etc to cut a long story short her boy started displaying the same kind of symptoms you are describing, he got to the point where he was going through a set of hind shoes every ten days because the hind dragging/ toe dropping had become so severe. Vets in the beginning did a thorough examination of all hind limbs and pelvis. But found nothing, after quite a long time and expensive investigation with nothing found. The whole horse was xrayed, turned out he had broken his poll, and this hadn't healed quite correctly. But after some intensive physio, and then regular sessions for the rest of his life. He became a lot better, never 100% in his action, but pain free and happy....
Hope you manage to get to the bottom of this one xxxx just something maybe to think about...best o luck!
 
Nitro mouse said:
Hiya Wagtail, I am not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, but has anyone checked his neck and poll. Bizarrely I was chatting to a good friend this morning reminiscing about her old horse etc to cut a long story short her boy started displaying the same kind of symptoms you are describing, he got to the point where he was going through a set of hind shoes every ten days because the hind dragging/ toe dropping had become so severe. Vets in the beginning did a thorough examination of all hind limbs and pelvis. But found nothing, after quite a long time and expensive investigation with nothing found. The whole horse was xrayed, turned out he had broken his poll, and this hadn't healed quite correctly. But after some intensive physio, and then regular sessions for the rest of his life. He became a lot better, never 100% in his action, but pain free and happy....
Hope you manage to get to the bottom of this one xxxx just something maybe to think about...best o luck!
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Yes, the vet recommended a really good physio who I was very impressed with. She did say his poll was sore but it was a lot better after a couple of sessions with her. Hopefully though the bone scan will pick up on any hot spots and that will give the vets something more to go on.

I have to say, this vet is a very good vet who has done some really good work with our horses here. But I just think it seems to be a 'vet thing' that as far as feet are concerned, they are often the last thing they look at, other than the obvious abscess, of course.
 
amandap said:
:( This is where I think some vets go wrong. They focus too much on treating one issue and don't see the whole picture. Treating one symptom and not addressing any causes is not going to help in the longer term and in the mean time the overall breakdown smoulders away until it bursts into flames. :(
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Thats why my horse is now being seen by Donna Blinman who told me he stood wrongly, his feet were out of balance, his sacrum was fixed and his musclelature (sp?) isnt correct. She checked his skull too but thats was OK - thanks goodness something is
 
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There is great benefit IMO to regular visits from a ACPAT physio it makes you very quick to pick on changes as the muscles will tell you when things change ,
While it sometimes not easy to track down why things change the sooner you know something's going on the better chance you have of nipping issues in the bud .
The cost is not great in the big scheme of things and it can save you money down the line .
I am not letting mine go more than six to eight weeks without a visit when in work now.
 
coffeeandabagel said:
Thats why my horse is now being seen by Donna Blinman who told me he stood wrongly, his feet were out of balance, his sacrum was fixed and his musclelature (sp?) isnt correct. She checked his skull too but thats was OK - thanks goodness something is
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I have heard very good things about Donna Blinman. I almost sent my boy there. I wish I had now, rather than have him operated on for the kissing spines.
 
So, the results of the bone scan show small amount of uptake in neck, back, right fetlock and hocks. Also hind feet. Moderate uptake in sacro illiac region. So today we will have nerve blocks to hocks and SI and xray of spine and neck. Fingers crossed it's something that is simple to fix. I really love this gelding.
 
Wagtail. She saw him and his sacrum is so fixed she needs him for 3 months rehab. Just waiting to see if insurance will pay, but its unlikely. She is full until May so shoes are off and going out to grass for a few weeks. If can't get it funded don't know what to do. He us ky dream horse but I have be realistic.
 
coffeeandabagel said:
Wagtail. She saw him and his sacrum is so fixed she needs him for 3 months rehab. Just waiting to see if insurance will pay, but its unlikely. She is full until May so shoes are off and going out to grass for a few weeks. If can't get it funded don't know what to do. He us ky dream horse but I have be realistic.
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That is awful. So sorry.
 
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