Toe first landing, long toes and poor shoeing

Degan

Degan

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This subject is one that I am very interested in. However I confess I'm not sure that, even with all the research I have found, I understand how you would initially go about improving this.

For a horse for example that has very poor quality flat feet that is long in the toe with low heels (a broken back HPA) and isnt being shod in a way to help this; and the horse consequently lands toe first.

So my question is really to those who know or have experience of improving this how you first go about it??

Also could this problem be sorted without taking the shoes off? OR would it be best to take shoes off for as long as it takes for the hoof to be 'correct' before putting shoes on for studding up eventually to compete?

Lots of question I know, and I know there will never be a one size fits all way of doing it but what are the principles and order of going about this change (that you could then alter depending on the horse?

For example would initially sorting out the nutrition while the horse is still shod and trying to get the best balance/ biomechanics while shod at this time be appropriate? and then say take shoes off if this was essential and continue from then improving balance and structure of the hoof after this initial start time??
OR do you make all this changes all at once?

If you managed to get through all that then thankyou! and I'll look forward to some views :)
 
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You can change the diet immediately, remembering, of course, the first principle of horse-feeding, which is to make changes gradually but you can start today. You do not need to buy expensive 'brands' and supplements. We feed Speedibeet, soaked grassnuts and dried grass chaff/oat straw chaff depending on the horse. We add Brewer's Yeast to aid digestion, except for the one who can't tolerate it. We also give a tiny amount of dry bran because we have to give haylage rather than hay and this helps the consistency of the droppings.
As for the long toes etc; you need a better farrier. I would take some time to look at the feet of local horses, find a few whose feet a re the shape you want and ask who their farrier is. Then ask that farrier to do your horse.
I have horses with shoes, without shoes and with just front shoes - their feet are all the same shape because my farrier looks after them all. He is still improving the feet of my most recent purchase.
 
A properly trained remedial farrier sorted my horses foot balance and have had no tripping or toe first since.

He's now shod normally and basically the way he had been previously shod caused his problem (which was resolved after only a couple of sessions with new farrier)

I am sure lots of people will advice removing shoes and getting a good trimmer but I have no experience/knowledge of that route.
 
I agree with changing diet.
I have the same problem with my lad at the moment and after x rays has reverse rotated pedal bones. He's pottery when shod and pottery barefoot without boots but fine booted up.
I went down the barefoot route as although he could have gel pads down his frogs at £150 a time I didn't see how this would help long term. I decided that barefoot and let him sort his own feet out would be best. A lot off horses land toe first because off pain in the heel area which was right in my case.
I believe ( now he's landing heel first) that in time his heels will build up, frogs will get bigger and this in turn will help bring his toe back.
My farrier did try different shoes set back under his feet to help bring the toe back but all they done was cripple my lad but speak to your farrier if your happy with the one u use ( unless it's him that's made him like this)
it's hard to say either way but in my case, I believe barefoot is the only way forward.
 
The key is in understanding why the foot is pathological in the first place.

A heel first landing is caused by sensitivity in the back of the foot. The reason for this may be as simple as a minor thrush infection which can be resolved with appropriate treatment. Or it may be a symptom of a much larger problem - a weak, poorly developed caudal hoof which is simply too withered and feeble to bear the weight of the horse as it lands.

The answer to this second problem is to strengthen the back of the foot. This may possibly be achieved in shoes to some extent, however a rigid shoe prevents flexion of the lateral cartilages and full expansion of the foot upon landing, so there is necessarily a limit to how much can be done whilst the horse is shod.

That's mho, anyway ;).
 
I have just bought a horse (2 mths ago) with low heels/ long toe. he has good strong quality of horn and good growth so no supplement is needed, ( says my farrier) - therefore no supplement will alter his hpa, that is his conformation. The best my farrier said he can do is, and what he has done, is used shoes that give more heel support by spreading the load to encourage widening of the heel & discourage contraction. After several shoeings, he said, there hopefully will be some improvement. I`m not sure if im just over optimistic but they look better already after 4 wks growth
 
I bought a TB with this sort of foot except he thankfully does not have toe first landing I tried to work on at first with improving them in shoes but in April removed the shoes the difference in the new foot angle is dramatic he has boots for surfaces he find uncomfortable when his new foot has grown he will be shod I think but the farrier will be working with a much healthier foot.
I don't think you can solve this issue in shoes they need to be unshod and fed correctly and have their feet managed its a bit of a faff but the benefits are huge.
 
Shoes lift the hoof off the ground.

Which is fine - but they deny the heels and frogs the oppertunity to be part of the action.

hoofshoes.jpg


So without the daily workout of being part of the loading apparatus, the frog and heels contract, become weak, and often develop thrush in the deep clefts created by the contraction.
Contraction of the heels has been around since shoes were invented and there were many shoes created to try and address this issue, but none have been successful.

In America - some farriers advocated burning the hoof to try and alleviate it.

burningsole2.jpg


Long term - the lack of stimulation to the frog will cause the hooves to push the heels forwards, underneath the horse, in a desperate attempt to find the ground.

The toes become chronically long. And this length causes stress to the coronet area, quarters and leverage on the laminae.

The horse will land on the front consistently - as the back is just too weak to do it's job. This adds extra stress to the laminae and inappropriate leverage and stress to the tendons and ligaments.

So we can add special shoes, special pads and throw money at it - or we can just agree with the horse and give him a break from the shoes (as they SHOULD have annually as a matter of routine) and let him sort his own hooves out. It's so simple to me - I cannot fathom why such time and effort has been spent over the years trying to 'fix' the problem with more intervention :confused:.

How quickly we progress depends on how much stimulation they receive. They need movement to 'work out' and strengthen the hoof again - internally as well as externally.

Which leads us to diet.

We know that diet affects hooves (although we don't yet know why). So if we address the diet and make it appropriate to the horse's needs (rather than the feed company's marketing) then the horse will be comfortable enough to move plenty - and the hoof will get better quicker.....

You may find Faracat's story interesting.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=549121
 
Would like to add that it's not always down to poor shoeing - it's all often a consequence of long term shoeing with no break and it's can't really be fixed with more shoeing.

Often the poor farrier has to do the best he can with the hoof in front of him.

Often it's too little, too late.
 
Oberon said:
Would like to add that it's not always down to poor shoeing - it's all often a consequence of long term shoeing with no break and it's can't really be fixed with more shoeing.

Often the poor farrier has to do the best he can with the hoof in front of him.

Often it's too little, too late.
Click to expand...

That's the nub of the issue , long term shoeing without regular breaks that's what causes most of these issues as the owner you must give the farrier a good foot to work with and breaks from shoeing is the way to do this.
 
Oberon/Goldenstar, how long a shoeing break would you suggest for a horse that is shod fronts only, but is in the same amount of work (eg. young horse in light work mix of roads and verges) all year round?

Or do people tend to pull the shoes and then not work the horse?
Thanks, and sorry to butt in OP :)
 
MissMistletoe said:
Oberon/Goldenstar, how long a shoeing break would you suggest for a horse that is shod fronts only, but is in the same amount of work (eg. young horse in light work mix of roads and verges) all year round?

Or do people tend to pull the shoes and then not work the horse?
Thanks, and sorry to butt in OP :)
Click to expand...

Each case is individual, so it depends on the horse, the problem, the owner and the hoof care professional.

Work is the key. Hooves thrive on abuse and the horse is more metabolically 'clean' when given enough work . But you need to tailor the work to the comfort of the horse in the beginning.

Some are fine and can start increasing the work straight away (just like getting the body fit - you have to get the hooves 'fit' too and increase the work gradually).

Some (with the very sick hooves and/or metabolic issues) are uncomfortable for two weeks (and need to be kept on soft ground) and then need boots and pads to be able to work (then can go bare when their hooves are ready).

Some need to live in boots for the first few weeks (or casts or epoxy material).

Usually I would expect great changes and improvements after a couple of weeks/months and a whole new hoof after 6 - 9 months.

But it is a holistic approach - you need to get the diet and movement right to move forward. A sore horse is no good to anyone and won't want to move - so you won't get anywhere.
 
Great info from Oberon.

xob 111 said:
I have just bought a horse (2 mths ago) with low heels/ long toe. he has good strong quality of horn and good growth so no supplement is needed, ( says my farrier) - therefore no supplement will alter his hpa, that is his conformation. The best my farrier said he can do is, and what he has done, is used shoes that give more heel support by spreading the load to encourage widening of the heel & discourage contraction. After several shoeings, he said, there hopefully will be some improvement. I`m not sure if im just over optimistic but they look better already after 4 wks growth
Click to expand...

It's not about supplements, it's about making sure every ingredient in the diet is required, that everything required is provided, and nothing that they need is left out. Simply adding supplements has been the way for a few years but the newer approaches are all about viewing the diet holistically. And HPA is NOT about conformation:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/hoof-pastern-angles-shoes-and-back-of.html

Some research coming out that shows shoeing itself perhaps IS harmful as the barefoot Taliban have been saying for years:

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2012/08/28/effect-horse-shoes-equine-hoof-shape
 
I used to use a super farrier [when shod] who stated that a horse might look better but this would not affect feet, also attending vet thinks horse does not need fed if on rest after illness [feed never mentioned in three months of said illness].
I have my own views based on experience and scientific understanding.
Vets and farriers are not thoroughly trained or interested in this aspect of horse care.
Most vets take a five year scientific training and never move out of these constraints, things do move on, but more related to high tech solutions [some to problems that could have been avoided with proper, or traditional training methods]
My horse is now fed all year round with vits and mins and a cup off micronised linseed meal, he has better skin and coat colour, skin is no longer itchy. He does not have shoes, feet are clean and soles concave, the outer wall is pretty much perfect, ie no event rings.
My current farrier [only rasped once in a year] is interested n my methods, it is all new to him.
If a horse has a hoof problem it has to be sorted gradually rather than radically as the ligaments need to adjust gradually. This is often better done by removing shoes and working away with pasture/stable mangement.
Long toe is a classic farrier related problem.
 
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