tongue over the Bit - bit suggestions

[racingdemon]

Hi

can anyone suggest a bit that might better suit my 5yo, (briefly... he ran on the flat twice & once over hurdles as a 3yo)

his flat work is improving nicely, working quite happily in a verbindend, which has pretty much solved the tongue over the on the flat, however jumping is a different kettle of fish

he loves jumping, is honest & brave, but needs to learn to settle & wait for the fence, he can get a little lit up about jumping & this is when the tongue appears over the bit most often, rendering steering & brakes somewhat defunt!

i'm jumping him in a waterford snaffle at the moment, (he leans on the bit, & although this is improving with schooling, we're along way off really being balanced & sitting on our hocks!!) which is ok, he's reasonably happy, but im not convinced its the best bit for him, and prompted by the bit feature in H&H on thurs, i thought i'd try some others..... so..... any suggestions

so far i'm considering
a Bomber Happy Tongue Cherry roller
A myler with a port (can't remember what its called)
A verbindend universal (i have a waterford universal but i think it'd be too strong, he's quite sensitive in his mouth)

i'd rather avoid a spinner of any sort, as i'm not sure it wouldn't freak him out
i also can't remember if they raced him in a tongue tie, but he's certainly done this ever since he came home from racing

thanks muchly!!

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Racehorses who do this are fitted with an Australian noseband which is a a rubber [orange] fitting which comes straight down the face, splits at the nose on to the bit. It lifts the bit and being rubber never falls down enough to allow him to get tongue over.
A tongue tie is used for horses who gurgle because the tongue tries to fall to the rear of the mouth. Horses struggle for air, so it gets worse when ground is heavy or if there is any fault in the larynx/palate
I would try to stick with the waterford if it normally works, others can be harsh if pulling a lot.
When you say waterford international, are you talking about a chunky bit with a series of rollers, they are not as "harsh" as they look.

 

[racingdemon]

thanks,

this is the waterford universal

http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/8029-14-140-Uni_P_med.jpg

 

[foxy1]

My horse used to put his tongue over the bit in every conventional bit I tried inc ns bits, eventually I used a myler low ported bit and no flash ( I think trying to keep his mouth closed just aggravated the problem) and he stopped trying.

 

[racingdemon]

thanks foxy, i think thats the myler i've looked at, we're without any type of closed noseband as it also seems to irritate him more!
i shall try one of those, whats it like brakes wise?

thanks

 

[TarrSteps]

My horse used to put his tongue over the bit in every conventional bit I tried inc ns bits, eventually I used a myler low ported bit and no flash ( I think trying to keep his mouth closed just aggravated the problem) and he stopped trying.

That combo works well for a lot of horses. The US has even made it dressage legal now.

 

[only_me]

Billy has a habit of playing with his tongue, but he goes very well in a NS verdibrand and grackle. Might be worth trying

We are lucky that here a grackle is aff dressage legal

 

[foxy1]

Brakes wise it worked very well for my horse,as much to do with him accepting the contact fully, as any kind of 'action' though.

 

[RLD]

My horse always used to get his tongue over the bit. I now jump in Bomber happy tongue Pelham and he has never put his tongue over it and generally seems much happier in it.

 

[catembi]

Are you *sure* his teeth are okay? Trev's were always done by a 'reputable' dentist, using a gag, but then the vet did them & found enormous hooks at the back & a wolf tooth in the way of the bit. All sorted under sedation, & he stopped putting his tongue over. I was horrified as I thought I was doing my best by using a good, qualified ETD, & felt awful that I'd been riding my poor boy in a flash to stop him doing it.

T x

 

[LuLu2]

Are you *sure* his teeth are okay? Trev's were always done by a 'reputable' dentist, using a gag, but then the vet did them & found enormous hooks at the back & a wolf tooth in the way of the bit. All sorted under sedation, & he stopped putting his tongue over. I was horrified as I thought I was doing my best by using a good, qualified ETD, & felt awful that I'd been riding my poor boy in a flash to stop him doing it.

T x

This! Feel free to tell me I'm wrong but I have heard that having the tongue over the bit is a pain response apparently it releases endorphins. I haven't got anything to back this up but my first pony used to do this and she always suffered bouts of lami so her feet were probably sore. Also a friends horse did it mid dressage test and they discovered he'd put something out.
Again no solid proof just thought it was worth mentioning. x

 

[foxy1]

I think my horse did it because he had a large tongue and most bits put a lot of pressure on it....

 

[racingdemon]

He came home from racing with teeth issues, which my vet has addressed, so while it might have originally been teeth related I'd hope now they shouldn't be causing him discomfort, he is on much more frequent check ups though, so hopefully if it was them we'd spot anything before it became a problem

 

[Shazzababs]

I used to have an ex-racer\eventer who persistently did this.

Eventually after having everything checked and deciding it was just a bad habit\evasion, I came accross one of these: http://www.rideaway.co.uk/korsteel-wire-tongue-grid/

It goes on with a slip head and is completely independant of the bit. It worked a treat and fixed the problem almost overnight. Its not dressage legal, but I used to warm up in it and then get someone to just pop it off right before we went into the arena, normally I'd get through the test before he noticed! It was amazing having steering! We also tried a hackamore, but he wasn't keen on that.

Bitwise, It was the 80's so choice was limited. After a little trial and error we used a kimblewick, only adding the curb chain for for fast work\jumping (I had a one with the curb hooks removed, so they didn't dig in). For dressage we would swap to a straight bar snaffle, although my Pony Club used to let me use the curbless kimblewick .

Today I think I would have tried him on one of those snaffles with a port. I think his problem was with his tongue being restricted.

 

[Mike007]

Such an interesting and thought provoking thread. Sadly I have nothing to offer. My ongoeing battle with Bob the nota cob has had numerous false hopes . I am convinced it is an evasion ,though the cause is unknown. Possibly discomfort possibly bolshyness . I suspect his early schooling was of the "slap some tack on and if he doesnt chuck you off ,he,s broke"sort. In all things he is a very ameanable horse and trys hard .I am covinced that it is liknked with his poor head carriage (very high ) and his resistance to walking straight . Possibly (and this is my current theory) because he is such a big powerfull horse, I have been riding from my hands rather than leg. Not heavy hands (I hope) just too much. I hope this makes some kind of sense. I have now binned the flash . If he wants to open his mouth and put his tongue over , I try to evaluate what has made him do it.Stop him and let him relax then try again.
I am also following up the teeth ,line of enquiry. It has been suggested to me that with a flash on ,if his teeth are hooked or too long at the back his jaws become locked and so he cant flex his neck as this requires his jaws to slide . The theory is that when I then ask for more flexion ,he has no choice but to resist. If this turns out to be the cause I also am going to feel really guilty Catembi.
Another thing I have done which may well be verging on the ridiculous, is that I have stopped using hay nets.He gets his hay on the ground now. My rather batty logic is that his action when pulling hay from the net is so like the head twisting action he has when sticking his tongue over the bit. Perhaps he is building up all the wrong muscles in his neck.
I hope I find a way soon ,to overcome these issues and it is so helpfull to read other peoples experiences.

 

[HorsesandParrots]

i'd personally lower the bit In his mouth, so that he can get his tongue back more easily.
A Waterford can be uncomfortable on the tongue, so he may be avoiding this. It's best to stop 'leaning' with training rather than a different bit, so 'd use your other bit for jumping too if you can and raise your hands to try and stop him leaning.
My mare put her tongue over the bit all the time; tightening nosebands/flash's etc just makes them feel more restrained and makes the horse worse with it's mouth.
Keep the noseband very loose, (or remove it!) and lower the bit so he can get his tongue back. Make sure you are gentle with your hands and try a ported or mullen snaffle, that doesn't work the tongue. He'll soon teach himself that It is more comfortable to keep his tongue under the bit!