Tongue over the bit/opening mouth - the answer?

T

teddyt

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Following on from a few previous threads and peoples responses to their horses behaviour i was pondering this-

Q. Why do people use flash nosebands?
A. To keep their horses mouths shut and/or stop them from putting their tongue over their bit

But WHY do horses open their mouths and put their tongue over the bit?

Is it because they are naughty?
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What do people think? And is it acceptable to strap a horses mouth shut if we dont know why they open it? Should we try to find out why? And if we know why then why do we use flashs/grakles, etc?

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my mare is guilty of doing the tongue over the bit, she is very skilled....but its a stress reaction. once she is calm and confident she doesnt do it. i dont sctrap her mouth shut....just got to build up her trust!
 
I always thought it was a sign of discomfort. Strapping a horses mouth shut might appear to be a good idea, but instead I would suggest making sure the bit is suitable, it's not a rider error, teeth have been checked etc and using a flash as a last resort.

My old instructor told me that having something around their mouth gives them something else to lean on and evade. Haven't actually had the experience so can't say if that's true or not, but I can imagine the evasion being very true.
 
Im liking the replies!

But a previous poll had a huge % of people that used a certain item because their horse went nicely in it. Now, admitedly some of that % use cavessons but others dont. So are the horses going 'nicely' because they have submitted to the tack, i.e. because they are physically forced into keeping their mouth shut and this is taken as going nicely?
 
Presumably riders that use them are doing it for a reason? to keep the mouth shut because of what they see as evasion? tongue over the bit also an evasion? I think a lot of riders use them because it's something other people do, or because the bridle came with it attached.. was what someone said to me once.

I don't use these types of noseband, I use a thick padded one, cavesson (not crank). If my horses started to evade me with one of the above evasions I would find out why, not change the noseband, I don't like tying the horses mouth shut and have never done it, my horses don't need it.

Before anyone says anything
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I don't condemn riders that do use them but I think a lot are used when it's totally not necessary, it's down to schooling
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[ QUOTE ]
Im liking the replies!

But a previous poll had a huge % of people that used a certain item because their horse went nicely in it. Now, admitedly some of that % use cavessons but others dont. So are the horses going 'nicely' because they have submitted to the tack, i.e. because they are physically forced into keeping their mouth shut and this is taken as going nicely?

[/ QUOTE ]

Learned helplessness?
 
I used to use a flash as Beau would set her lower jaw at an angle and then lean on the bit, this meant an outline was out of the question and I had no control over speed/direction jumping, the flash held top and bottom jaw level and stopped her from 'setting' her jaw in this way and running away with me. Her teeth were fine and her back/neck etc she purely did it to get the upper hand (she genuinly does know best most of the time but we have to keep up the pretence that I am master!)

6 months in the flash and I now do not need 1.

On the other hand Raine arrived in a drop noseband, which also holds the mouth shut to a certain extent, she had not had her teeth done for 10 YEARS!! and was in a terrible state. now, although she yaws her mouth open and leans on the bit to run away with her rider out galloping (sometimes) and even though her teeth are fine now if we try to put a flash or similar on her or hold her mouth shut in any way she panics, goes back and up, yet when I tried her in 1 she was fine, as if she's saying 'but you love and understand me I don't understand'
 
I use the flash strap occasionally, when I'm jumping or hacking out with others if he's a bit fresh and he sometimes gets a bit cocky, its not strapped tight and he can still open his mouth a little, you can fit two fingers under his chin but its just enough to stop him really opening his mouth and jawing sometimes, he doesn't require it for schooling or dressage, only when he tries his luck, as he can lock on to the right rein when jumping and the flash strap really makes a difference even if its not on tight, his bit is fine and feel no need to have strap his mouth shut because that is not what its used for in our case, I like to be able to feel exactly what is going on inside his mouth and what a horse is telling me.
 
Hmm, I would assume that there was something going on in the mouth that I wasn't previously aware of. I don't like flash nosebands...it's a personal prejudice against them, not a condemnation of anyone who uses one
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I use cavesson nosebands on all my horses (lots
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) because they go nicely which I think is because I know something about bitting
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All my horses go in different bits (variations on snaffles) which suit the individual horse and its conformation. My mare was quite tricky to bit (dressage legally) because she has a thick sausage-shaped tongue and a narrow jaw and would put her tongue over most bits. Sorted now though (without strapping her mouth shut
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I haven't read all the posts (because I'm working and not really on here
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I'm not keen on strapping mouths shut, but it's horses for courses. Big Cob, for example, used to be in a cavesson; he waved his tongue at passes by and crossed his jaw. Dentist vist: no problems. Back man: no problemsn. Tried different bits, but he likes what he likes (a pelham or a boulcher). Tried a Mexican grakle and now he goes in a soft contact and is happy and relaxed. He's not the sort to just give in and accept if he didn't find it comfortable(!).

Dizz waves her head and mouth on the odd occassion - if I were to strap her shut/tie her down she would, um, show her disapproval shall we say
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I think often people do use them to avoid the evasion you mention, but they don't bother asking what/why the evasion is happening. Most of the time, there is discomfort of some sort, or even lack of training.

I do not strap a horses mouth shut, and think people should try to sort out the issue without resorting to straps.
 
If I had broken a horse myself and had to use a noseband to keep it's mouth shut, I'd entirely blame my hands.

Sometimes a horse comes to you already spoiled/ruined by someone else.

If a horse opens it's mouth/crosses it's jaw or puts it's tongue over the bit as an evasion I think I would start with a Mexican Grackle to try to get the horse to "un-learn" the habit. Once the habit was un-learned I'd go back to a cavasson.

I did once have a horse that was so committed to getting her tongue over the bit that I had to use a tongue grid to cure her - not nice but it was effective and I got rid of it after a month.

I am a bit of a purist. i.e cavasson noseband with a "proper" snaffle (not these hanging cheek or wilkie things) or a proper double. Any other combination is a compromise that should only be a stepping stone.
 
Interesting views everyone, thanks for your replies.
I am not totally against extra tack, particularly if there is a safety issue. But it shouldnt be used because of a lack of empathy or knowledge or a short cut for the rider. Also, when i have started horses myself i have never needed it!

I have backed and bought on many young horses (my own and for owners) and not one of them has gone in more than a snaffle and cavesson. Maybe i take that for granted and see it as normal?
 
TT - I had an interesting discusion with someone in Comp regarding flashes (or it might have been drops). Whichever, she is a dressage rider. She starts all her horses in a flash (or drop!), working on the basis that they won't learn to open their mouths. I didn't get it
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Well I posted in the previous post that I use a flash on one of mine as he does open his mouth and tries to get his tongue over the bit. He's an ex-racehorse and really the first schooling he's done is this year (he's 8 and raced until he was 7). He has had the usual checks, we have tried loads of different bits on him and he is happiest in what he wears now (a loose ring french link). I actually started off with just a cavesson, and have always been a bit of purist in that have always used a snaffle and a cavesson. It does seem to be more habit with him, when he gets nervous/stressed about something he starts knawing and pulling his tongue back, the more relaxed he gets, the less he does it, so I have to really concentrate on getting his attention/getting him to think and he therefore does it less and less. As I said in last post, he is getting better as his schooling improves so hopefully in a short while we will back to how we started off with just the cavesson.
 
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