Too fat to ride?

Kallibear said:
A fit and slim 14hh Highland will easily weight 500kg. They are a lot of pony! A 14.2 Highland will be at least 550kg. Your average fat 14hh Highland is 600kg (tho therefore less able to carry weight). They're the only Native I'd say were up to a 14st rider at 14hh. A Fell or similar is far less horse. (P.s I'm surrounded by Highlands, can't move for the things. Many of which I know the weightbridge weight for)
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It needs to be up to carrying 15 7 to 16 stone though, if the rider is 14 stone
 
ester said:
I have read all of the relevant studies as some point. I am basing my views on being a working scientist with a PhD that knows how many studies, either slightly different or replicates of the same with different researchers, total replicates etc it takes to make a rule- and on this topic it's a long way away.
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On what do you guide your views ?
 
Smurf's Gran said:
On what do you guide your views ?
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errr ' I am basing my views on being a working scientist with a PhD'

years of scientific training? Just because it is written up doesn't make something good, or correct. I imagine JFTD might agree with that ;). It just goes in the vat of 'things to consider might be right' :p.
 
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Mongoose11 said:
There are some 14 - 14.2h breeds that would be within the 20%. How would you know if the posters are over the 20%, as I can't recall many who quoted their horse's weight, their weight and tack weight? An appropriate highland might weigh 550kg which puts the OP within the 20% with tack. You like the study, what more could we ask for here?

'So many' is inflammatory, as that is not the balance of this thread. As are phrases like 'complete disregard'. You do many posters a disservice here. Overwhelmingly, there has been more posters against the idea of a 14h pony/over 20% than for!
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Actually, I think it was you that reintroduced the idea of the possibility of a 14 hander being suitable for the OP who weighs 14 stone so would ride at considerably more.
 
ester said:
errr ' I am basing my views on being a working scientist with a PhD'

years of scientific training? Just because it is written up doesn't make something good, or correct. I imagine JFTD might agree with that ;).
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Are you a specialist in equine science ? and is this your field if so it would be great to get some info and guidelines from you based on actual science and you inconsiderable experience in this field.
 
Smurf's Gran said:
Actually, I think it was you that reintroduced the idea of the possibility of a 14 hander being suitable for the OP who weighs 14 stone so would ride at considerably more.
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I'm certain one could be found, so I stand by that comment. I then went on to say, very early on, that she may need rethink height.

I'm still interested in the identification of 'so many' posters. Was it just me then?
 
Smurf's Gran said:
Are you a specialist in equine science ? and is this your field if so it would be great to get some info and guidelines from you based on actual science and you inconsiderable experience in this field.
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What? You don't have to be a specialist in any sort of field in order to read, interpret and analyse the merits of a variety of scientific papers, anyone scientifically trained can do so and science writers do it day in day out.
 
Smurf's Gran said:
Are you a specialist in equine science ? and is this your field if so it would be great to get some info and guidelines from you based on actual science and you inconsiderable experience in this field.
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This made me laugh out loud. Let's not administer first aid while we're at it. We aren't qualified!

I presume you also need a PHD in parenthood these days?
 
JFTD said:
Surely common sense and rational thought is sufficient for most people?

Even those of you who don't have PhDs and years of scientific experience ;)
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Common sense can be wrong though and rational thought can be as simple as someone's albeit strong !! opinion

It would be great if someone has some actual experience in this field and can produce some sort of evidence as opposed to common sense and opinion.

If someone does have a PHD in equine science as opposed to a PDH in something other it would be great to hear from them and to have a proper informed opinion other than a viewpoint.

I would add (as I have already mentioned) that those who criticise the study that gave the 20% guideline ( and this is also based on cavalry guidelines from the 1920's also) at the moment we have nothing other only opinions base on common sense.
 
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Smurf's Gran said:
Common sense can be wrong though and rational thought can be as simple as someone's albeit strong !! opinion

It would be great if someone has some actual experience in this field and can produce some sort of evidence as opposed to common sense and opinion.

If someone does have a PHD in equine science as opposed to a PDH in something other it would be great to hear from them and to have a proper informed opinion other than a viewpoint
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I think the suggestion is that with a certain quality of intellect, you can be trusted to be rational and intelligent enough to make informed decisions.
 
JFTD said:
I suspect they're a lot closer to that than you'd imagine. Particularly F, now he's all muscled up and dressagey. Though I'm not sure the extra muscle he carries means he should also be carrying a larger rider too, so the premise may be flawed.
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Thanks for clarifying that. Do you know what he weighs?
 
I think if someone had experience in this field and could produce some excellent evidence it would be published anyway? So I think you may be requesting the impossible/the forum would be pretty small if view points weren't included :D.
 
Smurf's Gran said:
Common sense can be wrong though and rational thought can be as simple as someone's albeit strong !! opinion

It would be great if someone has some actual experience in this field and can produce some sort of evidence as opposed to common sense and opinion.

If someone does have a PHD in equine science as opposed to a PDH in something other it would be great to hear from them and to have a proper informed opinion other than a viewpoint
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I did my PhD at the Royal Veterinary College if that's good enough for you?

Not that it's any of your business, but as a "real" scientist, I don't consider anyone with a degree in ES to know their backside from their elbow, scientifically speaking anyway :)
 
Smurf's Gran said:
It needs to be up to carrying 15 7 to 16 stone though, if the rider is 14 stone
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I'd happily let a 14st rider (so yes, 16st) ride a 14.2 Highland. And probably a 14hh one too. I'm very picky about over loading horses but know Highlands quite well and how substantial they are. If you've not been around them much (few people down south have been) then you'll not realise how heavy they actually are. Many have far more bone than a cob (who, once clipped out often have little chicken legs) and their backs are very wide, flat and strong through the loins.

JFDT: How tall are your two? If they're over 14hh I'd be very surprised if they weight less than 500kg, even fit and slim. My friends 14.1hh is in Fat Fighting Club and regularly weighted at the vets. Her ideal slim weight is 530kg (vet prescribed). Her currently weight (tubby by normal standards, verging on 'skinny' by showing standards, grrr) is 580kg. She weights only a smidge less than my 17hh ISH!!

P.S I'm trained as a vet, if that makes my opinion more valid? ;)
 
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JFTD said:
I did my PhD at the Royal Veterinary College if that's good enough for you?

Not that it's any of your business, but as a "real" scientist, I don't consider anyone with a degree in ES to know their backside from their elbow, scientifically speaking anyway :)
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Thank you !! so if you could share with us your views on weight carrying based on your considerable knowledge that would be great
 
Mongoose11 said:
Did you check out any of the breed standard info, Wagtail?
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Yes. However breed standards often apply to show animals which we know are often far in excess weight-wise. I am interested in real working animals in tip top condition, hence why I asked about JFTD's highlands.
 
Smurf's Gran said:
Thank you !! so if you could share with us your views on weight carrying based on your considerable knowledge that would be great
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Sorry, but I don't actually want to. Largely because I don't feel my opinion is actually any more valuable than Ester's or Mongoose's or even Wagtail's ( :p ). Because without good evidence, it doesn't matter who I am, or what I do, or have done - it's just another opinion.

Besides, anyone can find my opinions on this matter by looking in the archives at the plethora of similar threads to which I have contributed in the past.


eta - Wagtail, I'm not avoiding the question - I can't answer it as I've never had cause to put them on a weigh bridge. So whilst I strongly suspect they are both in the ball park of 500kg (at 14/14,1) I cannot give you a truly factual answer.
 
ester said:
I think if someone had experience in this field and could produce some excellent evidence it would be published anyway? So I think you may be requesting the impossible/the forum would be pretty small if view points weren't included :D.
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Agree and this would be a help - I suppose my point is that we only have the 2008 study, and though some would think it is flawed, yourself included, it is all we have. It would be very helpful if the study could be replicated on our natives. Then we would have some evidence rather than peoples opinions.
 
I think a 14.2hh highland could well fit the bill, but even if a 14hh highland weighs 500kg I would say that is too close for comfort with a 14st rider plus tack.
There is a world of difference between a 14 hander and a 14.2. Now that I'm used to my 14hh cob, and despite the fact that he is built like a brick outhouse, a 14.2 cob looks huge to me.
We don't see many highlands down here in the far reaches of Southern England, it's a shame really, I've always thought them to be an interesting breed.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes. However breed standards often apply to show animals which we know are often far in excess weight-wise. I am interested in real working animals in tip top condition, hence why I asked about JFTD's highlands.
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Wagtail: I have more Highlands in a 2mile radius than JFTD will have in her county (the joys of living in Scotland. Shame I'm not a big Highland fan ;)) I can promise you that a slim fit 14hh Highland will weight 500kg. My own resident Highland was a 14hh youngster, who hadn't filled out yet at 4yrs old. He weight 490kg at a lean looking 2.5 condition score. A smaller 13.2hh will be no less than 400kg, more likely 450kg. You do get more 'Connie' looking ones that will weight a bit less, esp down south, but they're not desirable up here.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes. However breed standards often apply to show animals which we know are often far in excess weight-wise. I am interested in real working animals in tip top condition, hence why I asked about JFTD's highlands.
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Perhaps get on to DryRot then, he's our resident breeder. There are a hundred different articles relating to the general breed weight at various different heights. It would be a shame for you to dismiss the facts we sweeping statements like 'breed standards often apply' and 'we all know'. On the one hand we are being asked to look at factual info and then in another breath dismissing it!
 
Kallibear said:
You do get more 'Connie' looking ones that will weight a bit less, esp down south, but they're not desirable up here.
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One of mine is a connie-style lightweight. He tapes only slightly less than my more traditional one, and I'd be surprised if he's way off 500kg even as a skinny pocket rocket!

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