Too fat to ride?

[Blurr]

I appreciate I'm coming in late to post a couple of links which might help to determine if you are too heavy for your horse. I've posted them on similar threads but never seen anyone pick them up and repost so assuming not, I'll put them here. Hilary Clayton did some research on the rider-saddle-horse interface and talked about it at the ISES conference. Somewhere, I have seen the original paper but I can't find it on the website now. The link below is to the ISES Proceedings and Hilary's paper is on page 35.

She talks about maximal total force, which is roughly the weight of the rider in walk, twice the rider's weight in trot and three times the rider's weight in canter. She states that threshold values for pressures associated with the development of ischemic damage and saddle sores have been established (no citation on the ISES Proceedings) and it's recommended that mean pressure should be less than 11kPa and maximal less than 30kPa. To find kPa you need to know the weight bearing surface of your saddle and your weight.

I've put a link below to convert kPa to psi, but for the two figures mentioned, 11kPa = 1.595lb and 30kPa = 4.35lb

I've done a quick google regarding weight bearing surface and one page states that for an English saddle it's 120-130sq inches and for a Western it's 180sq inches, but feel free to find other sites or measure your own, I'm not suggesting these are written in stone.

So, for instance a 10 stone (140lb) rider on an English saddle of 120sq inches weight bearing surface = a mean of 1.166psi and a maximal (at canter) of three times that so 3.5psi. A 12 stone rider on a the same saddle = 1.4psi and 4.2psi and a 14 stone rider would be 1.63psi and 4.9psi which is outside the recommended limits.

Bear in mind, this is for ischemic damage (damage to the tissues of the back) that the saddle contacts.

This would suggest that one of the limiters on the weight carrying ability of a horse is the size of the saddle it can carry. And, if you're a heavier person then you need to look at the saddle you're using and chose one with a greater weight bearing surface to spread the load and get it within the limits mentioned. If you're unable to find one that the horse can accommodate, then you're too heavy for that horse. Or perhaps you should only walk and trot.

http://www.equitationscience.com/documents/Conferences/2013/9th_ISES_Proceedings.pdf
http://convertmpatopsi.com/kpa/convert-kPa-to-psi.html

On another note, in defence of the horse, we might accept that the UK is getting fatter, but why should the horse be made to bear the weight of that. Our average size may now be 16, but a horse is still a horse. It's not his fault I'm addicted to Victoria sponge ...

 

[Fun Times]

I appreciate I'm coming in late to post a couple of links which might help to determine if you are too heavy for your horse. I've posted them on similar threads but never seen anyone pick them up and repost so assuming not, I'll put them here. Hilary Clayton did some research on the rider-saddle-horse interface and talked about it at the ISES conference. Somewhere, I have seen the original paper but I can't find it on the website now. The link below is to the ISES Proceedings and Hilary's paper is on page 35.

She talks about maximal total force, which is roughly the weight of the rider in walk, twice the rider's weight in trot and three times the rider's weight in canter. She states that threshold values for pressures associated with the development of ischemic damage and saddle sores have been established (no citation on the ISES Proceedings) and it's recommended that mean pressure should be less than 11kPa and maximal less than 30kPa. To find kPa you need to know the weight bearing surface of your saddle and your weight.

I've put a link below to convert kPa to psi, but for the two figures mentioned, 11kPa = 1.595lb and 30kPa = 4.35lb

I've done a quick google regarding weight bearing surface and one page states that for an English saddle it's 120-130sq inches and for a Western it's 180sq inches, but feel free to find other sites or measure your own, I'm not suggesting these are written in stone.

So, for instance a 10 stone (140lb) rider on an English saddle of 120sq inches weight bearing surface = a mean of 1.166psi and a maximal (at canter) of three times that so 3.5psi. A 12 stone rider on a the same saddle = 1.4psi and 4.2psi and a 14 stone rider would be 1.63psi and 4.9psi which is outside the recommended limits.

Bear in mind, this is for ischemic damage (damage to the tissues of the back) that the saddle contacts.

This would suggest that one of the limiters on the weight carrying ability of a horse is the size of the saddle it can carry. And, if you're a heavier person then you need to look at the saddle you're using and chose one with a greater weight bearing surface to spread the load and get it within the limits mentioned. If you're unable to find one that the horse can accommodate, then you're too heavy for that horse. Or perhaps you should only walk and trot.

http://www.equitationscience.com/documents/Conferences/2013/9th_ISES_Proceedings.pdf
http://convertmpatopsi.com/kpa/convert-kPa-to-psi.html

On another note, in defence of the horse, we might accept that the UK is getting fatter, but why should the horse be made to bear the weight of that. Our average size may now be 16, but a horse is still a horse. It's not his fault I'm addicted to Victoria sponge ...

Crikey Blur, dont throw science and reasoned mathematical opinions into the mix else we may all have to start thinking about that rather than just hurling insults at one another. ��

 

[ester]

Thanks for the summary on that, it is something I have thought about although that would suggest an absolute limit on an english saddle.

 

[Wagtail]

I appreciate I'm coming in late to post a couple of links which might help to determine if you are too heavy for your horse. I've posted them on similar threads but never seen anyone pick them up and repost so assuming not, I'll put them here. Hilary Clayton did some research on the rider-saddle-horse interface and talked about it at the ISES conference. Somewhere, I have seen the original paper but I can't find it on the website now. The link below is to the ISES Proceedings and Hilary's paper is on page 35.

She talks about maximal total force, which is roughly the weight of the rider in walk, twice the rider's weight in trot and three times the rider's weight in canter. She states that threshold values for pressures associated with the development of ischemic damage and saddle sores have been established (no citation on the ISES Proceedings) and it's recommended that mean pressure should be less than 11kPa and maximal less than 30kPa. To find kPa you need to know the weight bearing surface of your saddle and your weight.

I've put a link below to convert kPa to psi, but for the two figures mentioned, 11kPa = 1.595lb and 30kPa = 4.35lb

I've done a quick google regarding weight bearing surface and one page states that for an English saddle it's 120-130sq inches and for a Western it's 180sq inches, but feel free to find other sites or measure your own, I'm not suggesting these are written in stone.

So, for instance a 10 stone (140lb) rider on an English saddle of 120sq inches weight bearing surface = a mean of 1.166psi and a maximal (at canter) of three times that so 3.5psi. A 12 stone rider on a the same saddle = 1.4psi and 4.2psi and a 14 stone rider would be 1.63psi and 4.9psi which is outside the recommended limits.

Bear in mind, this is for ischemic damage (damage to the tissues of the back) that the saddle contacts.

This would suggest that one of the limiters on the weight carrying ability of a horse is the size of the saddle it can carry. And, if you're a heavier person then you need to look at the saddle you're using and chose one with a greater weight bearing surface to spread the load and get it within the limits mentioned. If you're unable to find one that the horse can accommodate, then you're too heavy for that horse. Or perhaps you should only walk and trot.

http://www.equitationscience.com/documents/Conferences/2013/9th_ISES_Proceedings.pdf
http://convertmpatopsi.com/kpa/convert-kPa-to-psi.html

On another note, in defence of the horse, we might accept that the UK is getting fatter, but why should the horse be made to bear the weight of that. Our average size may now be 16, but a horse is still a horse. It's not his fault I'm addicted to Victoria sponge ...

What an interesting informative post. No doubt one of our 'true scientists' will pooh pooh the study as not being a double blind trial or something of the sort, but it's good enough for me (an inferior non scientist). Thanks for sharing.

 

[fatpiggy]

This thread has gone bat **** crazy, OP. No fault of yours, it was a perfectly reasonable topic to discuss. Not sure what has got into some folk on here, it's not normally like this.

Um, yes it is quite often like this actually! Some people just can't stay on topic and delight in making "smart" comments for the benefit of their private fan club. Herd mentality takes over and you can see why so many people post about cliques and bitchiness on their yards.

 

[Wagtail]

Um, yes it is quite often like this actually! Some people just can't stay on topic and delight in making "smart" comments for the benefit of their private fan club. Herd mentality takes over and you can see why so many people post about cliques and bitchiness on their yards.

How true!

 

[ester]

What an interesting informative post. No doubt one of our 'true scientists' will pooh pooh the study as not being a double blind trial or something of the sort, but it's good enough for me (an inferior non scientist). Thanks for sharing.

It is good because it is breaking down the factors involved, concentrating more on one hypothesis (though any conclusions drawn will then be less 'wide') and you have actual figures to play with. I wonder if anyone has used the pliance system in this sort of study as that would provide direct pressure information- although I think mostly has been used to compare saddle fit- it would be interesting to see with a well fitting saddle how the pressure changed with greater rider mass.

 

[Wagtail]

It is good because it is breaking down the factors involved, concentrating more on one hypothesis (though any conclusions drawn will then be less 'wide') and you have actual figures to play with. I wonder if anyone has used the pliance system in this sort of study as that would provide direct pressure information- although I think mostly has been used to compare saddle fit- it would be interesting to see with a well fitting saddle how the pressure changed with greater rider mass.

Yes, I think far more needs to be done in terms of research into this. Opinions vary so widely, I wish there was an accepted formula to use.

 

[SpringArising]

I hate to bring this up again, but how come the many qualified professionals who have seen me and my horse think hes ok to carry weight, I think up to at least 25% of his bodyweight, maybe more I just haven't done the maths, yet the overwhelming consensus on here is that its not acceptable? And no, they arent flattering me, please see my earlier posts

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt let 25% + on him and I do very little with him and am also not riding at the minute as hes put on weight with the spring grass. Something I will be addressing shortly, but as hes overweight at the min I'm not riding him. But all those qualified professionals from different fields say its ok, are they wrong?

What about the many horses in the US who are started at 2yr old with at least 15% of their bodyweight and then worked quite hard with at least that weight for their working life, then retiring sound and happy?

I dunno, I only want the best for my boy and I'm only riding him as the best for him wasn't the LW riders riding him, it was me riding him. I wouldnt have done it without several professionals telling me it was ok, as well as my experience of riding him.

How sure are people that the 10/15/20% quota is ok? There is no decent research so its mainly anecdotal, which is dodgy ground! I know lots of people who are my % who are or have ridden their horses and they are fine. And they are not the little compact weight carriers that mine are! They arent all fat people riding little horses either. the majority are riding bigger, leggier horses with not great conformation who just happen to be tall or more solid than the norm

I think there are probably a few reasons why.

• Some people really do not like confrontation, and will avoid it at all costs. Responding with 'Oh, that's silly! Just get on and ride!' is arguably easier than saying 'Yes you're right. You are too big for him and you shouldn't be riding him whilst you're at this weight'.

• An opinion is an opinion at the end of the day. Just because they're a vet, dentist, rocket scientist etc. that doesn't mean they're right. Until we can actually speak to our horses, no one will know for sure whether you're too big for your horse.

• People have become accustom to seeing fat people ride.

Etc. etc.

To be honest I don't follow the ever-changing 10/15/20/25% rule of what they can carry. I'm in the party of 'Just because they can, it doesn't mean they should'.

 

[gembear]

On another note, in defence of the horse, we might accept that the UK is getting fatter, but why should the horse be made to bear the weight of that. Our average size may now be 16, but a horse is still a horse. It's not his fault I'm addicted to Victoria sponge ...

I can't comment on anything else regarding what horses can and can't carry as tbh I don't know enough about it. I'm just part of the camp that thinks if it looks wrong, it probably is.

However, this last part is totally true. The UK population is getting bigger and I can't believe how excepting the nation is about that. Instead of trying to find a horse to fit the weight, why don't people concentrate on their own health first?

I would never be derogatory to someone who was overweight, but I realised how accepting of the situation we're becoming when I saw an interview of a model agency which promoted obese models (I don't mean just a bit more shapely, I mean very overweight) and they were talking about feeling and looking great and that they wanted to promote that ethos. Now, i'm not saying anyone who is obese should be stood in a dark corner and laughed at, and equally I don't believe in super skinny models either... just healthy. I kinda thought this was wrong?

Like someone else said, people are either accepting we're getting bigger or they're too afraid to tell someone they're too fat for their horse.

 

[cobgoblin]

Are you meaning straight up or on its side here??Nobody would fit a saddle unless you have a small flat butt in that case wagtail. I've had my saddles fitted to me and my horses and I've always had a 17.5 or a 17. I used to be able to squeeze my butt into a 16.5 or less wen I was about 6 stone and a teenager!!!

Honestly some people need to get real.

I have an hourglass figure and a fair amount of junk in my trunk and there is no way in even an 18inch saddle I could get my hands breadth between me and the cantle!!!

The hands breadth should be measured horizontally from the top of the cantle to the rider's back, when the rider is sitting straight and looking forward.

 

[Wagtail]

Are you meaning straight up or on its side here??Nobody would fit a saddle unless you have a small flat butt in that case wagtail. I've had my saddles fitted to me and my horses and I've always had a 17.5 or a 17. I used to be able to squeeze my butt into a 16.5 or less wen I was about 6 stone and a teenager!!!

Honestly some people need to get real.

I have an hourglass figure and a fair amount of junk in my trunk and there is no way in even an 18inch saddle I could get my hands breadth between me and the cantle!!!

Another way to explain it is four fingers width. Hope that's a bit clearer.

 

[SpringArising]

I can't comment on anything else regarding what horses can and can't carry as tbh I don't know enough about it. I'm just part of the camp that thinks if it looks wrong, it probably is.

However, this last part is totally true. The UK population is getting bigger and I can't believe how excepting the nation is about that. Instead of trying to find a horse to fit the weight, why don't people concentrate on their own health first?

I would never be derogatory to someone who was overweight, but I realised how accepting of the situation we're becoming when I saw an interview of a model agency which promoted obese models (I don't mean just a bit more shapely, I mean very overweight) and they were talking about feeling and looking great and that they wanted to promote that ethos. Now, i'm not saying anyone who is obese should be stood in a dark corner and laughed at, and equally I don't believe in super skinny models either... just healthy. I kinda thought this was wrong?

Like someone else said, people are either accepting we're getting bigger or they're too afraid to tell someone they're too fat for their horse.

I saw that documentary too and thought it was wrong (if we're thinking of the same one). I don't know what kind of publicity it got in terms of positive or negative, but I just didn't agree with it. Being unhealthily overweight isn't OK, and we shouldn't be setting that kind of example to children and teenagers. I also found it incredibly hypocritical - they spent an hour saying that everyone should be accepted no matter what size you are or what you look like, and yet they wouldn't let anyone model for them who wasn't over 5'6" or something.

 

[Emma_H]

My saddler explained to me that if your saddle is too small and your butt sits on the cantle, when cantering it pushes the saddle up and forward. You really need to be central on the twist with room in front and behind.

With regards to weight, I'm a bit of a plumpy and as a deterrent I have a photo on my fridge of me and my boy and I go to slimming world.

 

[Serianas]

Not going to wade into the discussion but I would like to say that I dropped about 4 stone to buy my boy, a 14hh New Forest. Im only 5ft 2ish and I just wasnt comfortable buying until i had... Its possible to get where you feel happy with the support of people, and many of us have been in the same boat so if you want to talk pm me The only thing i still find annoying is Im short enough to have to ride in kiddie stirrups ¬¬

 

[Goldenstar]

Good for you Serianas .
Back to saddles panel size that's key the bigger the panels the better it is for the horse carrying a big weight .
Of course the seat must not be too long as well .
And that's tall riders whatever their weight get into issues with short coupled horses , they must get saddles that fit them and that's not always easy .

 

[windand rain]

You see I dont think 14 stone is too heavy to ride a pony my 13hh highland carried me when I was as heavy if not slightly heavier than that with now trouble at all and in an english leather saddle. My probelm is when people recommend cobs for heavy people as many have poor bone quality and are often carrying up to a 100kgs of fat the answer really is to keep the pony fit strong and lean and your weight within reasonable bounds after all a horse carrying and extra 100 kgs of fat plus a heavy rider is actually carrying up to 200kgs of extra weight on its joints

 

[*hic*]

It is good because it is breaking down the factors involved, concentrating more on one hypothesis (though any conclusions drawn will then be less 'wide') and you have actual figures to play with. I wonder if anyone has used the pliance system in this sort of study as that would provide direct pressure information- although I think mostly has been used to compare saddle fit- it would be interesting to see with a well fitting saddle how the pressure changed with greater rider mass.

It would also sort out whether heavy balanced riders ride "lighter" than light unbalanced riders

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Another way to explain it is four fingers width. Hope that's a bit clearer.

Never been measured that way. Had my thigh bone measured and had the pressure point machine used and never had an issue. Never even heard of that measurment and I'm over 25yrs in horses how.

If that was the case I doubt many people of even the correct weight would be fitting a saddle. Even now at over 4st lighter I couldn't get the width of four fingers behind my butt in the saddle and I am well within the 15% guideline now.

 

[saddlesore]

I was always taught a hand in front and a hand behind too.

 

[alainax]

On another note, in defence of the horse, we might accept that the UK is getting fatter, but why should the horse be made to bear the weight of that. Our average size may now be 16, but a horse is still a horse. It's not his fault I'm addicted to Victoria sponge ...

However, this last part is totally true. The UK population is getting bigger and I can't believe how excepting the nation is about that. Instead of trying to find a horse to fit the weight, why don't people concentrate on their own health first?

It is true that many western nations are getting larger, however I do not think there is anything wrong with choosing a suitable mount for you. I would never consider riding a "ladies light hack" which would have been expected of me a few hundred years ago. We do have the option that we can ride " mens" horses

Even now at over 4st lighter I couldn't get the width of four fingers behind my butt in the saddle and I am well within the 15% guideline now.

I can... but the real question is do you have to be able to see all of my hand when I squish it between my bum and the cantle?

 

[Wagtail]

I was always taught a hand in front and a hand behind too.

Thank you. It's a commonly known tip. Though it seems to have passed some people by.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Thank you. It's a commonly known tip. Though it seems to have passed some people by.

It's not passed me by but I asked a professional and she said it wasn't needed.

 

[cobgoblin]

It's not passed me by but I asked a professional and she said it wasn't needed.

I wonder if it's no longer needed by necessity.

 

[ester]

Saddles really are hugely different these days though compare to the swept up panels and flatter seats of old. It seems a bit of an odd rule to me as it is usually obvious if a small saddle is making someone sit too much on the cantle.

 

[Red-1]

It is good because it is breaking down the factors involved, concentrating more on one hypothesis (though any conclusions drawn will then be less 'wide') and you have actual figures to play with. I wonder if anyone has used the pliance system in this sort of study as that would provide direct pressure information- although I think mostly has been used to compare saddle fit- it would be interesting to see with a well fitting saddle how the pressure changed with greater rider mass.

It would also sort out whether heavy balanced riders ride "lighter" than light unbalanced riders

Hi,

I was lucky enough to be involved in a saddle research day with the Saddle Research Trust, and used a bunch of saddles on my horse. It was only me riding, so not comparing heavy with light, but it did give some insights.

There were three factors that shone out to me. One was the overall weight (in my case that did not change, but we did discuss it). One was saddle fit, which obviously is vital as to pressure points. The third tackles the point with balanced riders. If I rode "well" the saddle sort of massaged along the back, with the pressure map showing waves of different pressure. If I was unbalanced the pressure was into the red zone.

The video of the pressure was fascinating, seeing the rising trot was good, but seeing when I lost balance, and maybe landed at the back of the saddle, or tipped forwards, was startling.

Proved to me that, with any rider, a balanced one was easier on the horse than an unbalanced. It would also stand to reason that both saddle fit and balance would be more vital with a heavier rider.

I hasten to add I was just an interested horse owner, and do not speak for the Saddle Research Trust. It would be worth seeing their research though, as it was not just the Pliance system they examined but also they stuck white "markers" on me and on my horse to see how my movement and his were interconnected, and connected to the saddle fit.

Most interesting of all to me though was how my horse told me what the pressure map was going to say with each saddle set up. I know some horses are more stoic than others, but Jay did tell me which fitted and which did not, and was accurate to the pressure map.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Is it just me who thinks that all it takes is some common sense? The height of the horse can ge irrelevant it must be decided on the build and fitness of each animal and the riding ability of the person. I know I am too heavy for my mare but am more than happy to ride my gelding who is only 2 inches taller. All down to the fact that he obviously can carry more weight. Doesn't take a genius.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I wonder if it's no longer needed by necessity.

I already said the saddle could have been made bigger if necessary but it was deemed not necessary. I'm not sitting on the cantle and I don't have a fat backside nor does my horse have a sore back so that would seem to mean everything is fine.

I could just shoot her tomorrow and get a bigger one but since everything is going swimmingly I think she would rather we stuck with the status quo.

 

[gembear]

It is true that many western nations are getting larger, however I do not think there is anything wrong with choosing a suitable mount for you. I would never consider riding a "ladies light hack" which would have been expected of me a few hundred years ago. We do have the option that we can ride " mens" horses

My underling point was that as a nation, why are we so accepting that everyone is getting bigger to the point of being unhealthy?

Rather than first thinking... oh i'm overweight, so I need to get X horse to carry my weight... shouldn't it be.... oh i'm overweight, this is unhealthy and causing/will cause lots of issues in my life, I need lose weight - which will also mean I will have lots more options when buying a horse.

 

[Wiz201]

My underling point was that as a nation, why are we so accepting that everyone is getting bigger to the point of being unhealthy?

Rather than first thinking... oh i'm overweight, so I need to get X horse to carry my weight... shouldn't it be.... oh i'm overweight, this is unhealthy and causing/will cause lots of issues in my life, I need lose weight - which will also mean I will have lots more options when buying a horse.

easier said than done sadly. I'm about to try again losing weight, very difficult with a condition that causes weight gain.